Radiology PA vs Registered Radiology Asst???

[ArtisticAthlete]

Hi,

 

I have an interest in Radiology and I've been considering going to PA school to be a Rads PA. I found information about being a Reg. Rads Asst and I was wondering if anyone knew the difference between these fields? According to the ASRT, Rads Asst make more than Rads PAs...

 

Rads Asst Avg Sal: $102, 972 (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/40/mi07-radiog-asst.pdf)

 

Rads PA Avg Sal: $95, 214 (http://physician-assistant.advanceweb.com/Article/PA-Salaries-by-Specialty-2008-2009-2.aspx)

 

I know it's not that much of a difference, but I was wondering your thoughts on this issue? Should I just puruse a Rads Asst cert if I know I only want to work in Rads (particulary Pediatric Rads if I should be so lucky :=D:)? I know I'd have to become a RT, first (which is two years), but I'm just curious. Basically, I need to find out which career has the most job openings. I don't want to pursue Rads PA if most people hire RT's/RRA's.

 

Fyi--I already have a science related B.S. and three years of healthcare exp.

[Bodiggler]

Honestly I would stick with PA. The Rads Asst is a new degree and I know those people have a great background in radiology but that doesn't help a person do a bone marrow biopsy does it? HELL NO! The PA clinical training would be way more beneficial, plus you would have more career options. I dont's see the Rads Asst program doing much for people in an already super saturated field like Radiology. If I was a radiologist, I would hire a PA hands down because I know they have far superior training to a rads assit. I dont feel there is a job market for Rad Asst. You would be wasting your time and money. I am a person who works in radiology so I know the field very well.

[ArtisticAthlete]

Oh, ok. Thank you for the advice.

 

You said Rads is super saturated...so it would be really hard for me to land a Rads PA job? Is there a specific subspecialty in Rads that is in demand? i.e. Rads onc

[tabflippin]

I am a rad tech, and I had originally (before going into xray school) thought I wanted to go on for RRA. However, I have changed my mind to go for PA instead. Reasoning is--the job market is WIDE OPEN for PA's. RRA's, not so much. According to my last ARRT Annual Report, only 78.7% of RRA's had a first time pass rate last year. Out of 60. There are only 158 RRA's in the U.S. currently. The ARRT and ASRT are still "ironing out" the scope of practice for RRA's (ie, what they are "allowed" to do). There ARE no RRA jobs advertised out there-the ones who do have jobs usually are hired into the groups they had a preceptor arrangement with. (ALOT of it has to do with Medicare/Medicaid/Govt not paying for the readings or duties RRAs do as a seperate provider).

 

There are very few schools (I was looking into Midwestern State University) that offer the program, and the preceptorship is basically "on your own" to arrange, or should I say-convince radiologists that you would be beneficial to them. Don't get me wrong--I LOVE radiology and the vast diversity that diagnostics has allowed me to view as far as pathology and people. And if I can find a way for PA and RT to mesh then I will do it :-) Hope this helps!

[just_me]

Ive never looked into being a RRA but did look into it when the office manager at a radiology center claimed thier RRA was "pretty much like a PA"--until that moment I had never heard of one

 

ANYWHO you know right now that you want to work in radiology but you never know what may happen in teh future (thats what people keep telling me about surgery lol) at least as a PA you can switch it up as long as theres an SP out there willing to train you or a residency that you can do

 

As an RRA thats pretty much your only thing right? I mean you can switch scenes but not really what you do....

[coloradopa]

Hi,

 

I have an interest in Radiology and I've been considering going to PA school to be a Rads PA. I found information about being a Reg. Rads Asst and I was wondering if anyone knew the difference between these fields? According to the ASRT, Rads Asst make more than Rads PAs...

 

Rads Asst Avg Sal: $102, 972 (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/40/mi07-radiog-asst.pdf)

 

Rads PA Avg Sal: $95, 214 (http://physician-assistant.advanceweb.com/Article/PA-Salaries-by-Specialty-2008-2009-2.aspx)

 

I know it's not that much of a difference, but I was wondering your thoughts on this issue? Should I just puruse a Rads Asst cert if I know I only want to work in Rads (particulary Pediatric Rads if I should be so lucky :=D:)? I know I'd have to become a RT, first (which is two years), but I'm just curious. Basically, I need to find out which career has the most job openings. I don't want to pursue Rads PA if most people hire RT's/RRA's.

 

Fyi--I already have a science related B.S. and three years of healthcare exp.

The AAPA has a nice position paper on this:

http://www.aapa.org/advocacy-and-practice-resources/issue-briefs/500-physician-assistants-and-radiology-practitioner-assistants-the-distinctions

 

The short answer is that one is a licensed medical practitioner able to bill Medicare and the other isn't.

 

The other point is that like surgery there is a lot of radiology that occurs outside the radiology suite. There is more to IR than poking a sharp object into a hollow cavity under flouro (although it takes skill). Our IR PAs do this as well as evaluate and consent patients for procedures, help stabilize them during procedures, run vascular clinics etc.

 

David Carpenter, PA-C

[NeoTrion]

That is exactly what I have found. Most of the states laws haven't been reworked to allow PAs or RPAs to use the flouro, at least here in Texas. I know in one part of the state they rely on them heavily, but they are also have problems getting reimbursement from Medicare for what they do. On top of that you are violating state law until they get around to changing the law. At one point the ARRT was trying to revoke certifications of RT ® for working outside of the scope of practice as an RPA, RA, RRA, whatever you want to call it. The law hasn't simply caught up yet for Radiology Assistant's. But on the flip side I know the State of Texas PA's and NP's are not allowed to use flouro in any diagnostic procedure. Like I said the law just hasn't caught up yet. I am not saying it doesn't happen, but some have been caught and slapped on the wrist.

[AMPA]

Radiology Assistant and Radiology Practitioner Assistant does not even come close to being "pretty much like a PA". This title is defined as an advanced Radiology Technician/Technologist. PAs are educated in the medical role model, just as physicians are trained and although PAs are dependent practitioners they are almost autonomous in their work environments. The RAs in our group have all done online programs which I personally think is a disadvantage to the public and to the individual's learning process. We have a person doing her clinicals in our IR department now and we can tell that her education does not include the appropriate critical thinking skills or knowledge to address even the simplest medical issues. Should you want to advance your career I strongly suggest you go to PA school. There you can use not only your radiology skills but those of a medically trained PA. Radiology Assistants do not practice medicine, cannot order testing, cannot write prescriptions etc....RAs are not like PAs and should not misrepresent themselves in any fashion. Here is a site that will give you the info between the RRA and RPA for the most part. It will vary from state to state on what they will allow....http://www.cbrpa.org/pdf/RPAvs%20RA.pdf Hope this helped you.

[wallacechristy7]

I agree with Bodiggler. Radiology PA is good and can grow your career.

[EMEDPA]

I think rra's can only work in 1 state at the present time as no other states have enabling legislation....

[ventana]

Rad super tech is a new field that is still floundering

 

you will hav MORE school to be an RT then a RA compared to jsut being a PA

 

RA are not able to bill medicare right now - they are trying but unlikely it will go through

 

RA's spend a TON-O-Time in the fluoro lab doing GI studies - Rad PA's do all the cool stuff and can go on the floors, round, write scripts, see patients AND if you get tired of Rad you go do something else

 

 

I would NEVER recomend a non RT go to RT school then RA school - instead become a PA and do MORE then an RA ever could -

 

RA's can not and never will be able to get a DEA # so forget about writing any meds as an RA - and they are not medical practitioners but jsut 'super techs'

 

soory if I am bias - just see no point in the whole RA movement

[rysmith]

AMPA you are wrong on Texas not allowing PA to use fluoro. http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=25&pt=1&ch=140&rl=517 See the above site. Texas administrative code title 25, part 1, ch 140, subchapter J, rule 140.517, A PA can perform fluoro and radiographic procedures utilizing contrast media while under the direct supervision of a physician, if appropriately trained. Direct is defined as physically present and immediately available as per the Director of Licesinsure of the Texas Department of Health, "physically present" is left up to us to intrepret. They will not interpret it anyfurther than from what it literally states and those who say otherwise are ill-informed. Therefore a physician must be on site but does have to be in the room. In another words, they will not interpret room layouts, facitlity design, etc. Per their words not mine, an appropriately trained PA can utilize fluoro if the above requirements are met. Appropriately trained is another matter but is very easy to obtain.

[NeoTrion]

AMPA you are wrong on Texas not allowing PA to use fluoro. http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=25&pt=1&ch=140&rl=517 See the above site. Texas administrative code title 25, part 1, ch 140, subchapter J, rule 140.517, A PA can perform fluoro and radiographic procedures utilizing contrast media while under the direct supervision of a physician, if appropriately trained. Direct is defined as physically present and immediately available as per the Director of Licesinsure of the Texas Department of Health, "physically present" is left up to us to intrepret. They will not interpret it anyfurther than from what it literally states and those who say otherwise are ill-informed. Therefore a physician must be on site but does have to be in the room. In another words, they will not interpret room layouts, facitlity design, etc. Per their words not mine, an appropriately trained PA can utilize fluoro if the above requirements are met. Appropriately trained is another matter but is very easy to obtain.

 

You are right on most of this Rysmith. We actually had to research this when I was working in El Paso with radiation safety. This law is also written into the reimbursement laws for medicare, however those are a lot more stringent. I agree that there is a grey area, more or less, on the definition of physically present here in Texas. But let's look at this rationally. You higher a RA to help you out as a Rad, what good is there to have one that can't do your fluoro. With RA's the issue is that they are RT® and can carry the certification to pseudo order it under their supervising rad, and use their RT® to activate it. This is a no go for Medicare because they consider that a self referral. Plus right now they do not recognize RA's as physician extenders. They are working on pushing a law that will given them the same reimbursement for the procedures as we do. But to be honest the law hasn't caught up to them yet, which is why they are trying to get the federal end taken care and then they hope the states will follow. This has the current conversation on the bill:

 

http://www.physicianassistantforum.com/forums/showthread.php/37484-We-need-to-speak-up-against-this-bill-protect-PA-s-and-NP-s

 

When we talked to medicare and they considered direct supervision as physically present in the room. According to them this was not open to interpretation as you have as you have said. "They are either in the room with you or not." When we asked the state of Texas, they said exactly the same thing. You can't get around that one in radiology. They said this is similar to rad tech students in there eyes: "rad tech students in their first year must be under direct supervision of a licensed technologist (with the technologist or other authorized agent being present during exposure). Second year students may have indirect supervision (with a technologist immediately available but not present) during an exposure. An authorized agent is someone recognized to have the proper training by the state of Texas as an MRT (maybe a non licensed technologist) or a licensed physician by the state of Texas medical board.." We had to get all of this cleared up due to our medicare/medicaid patients.

 

In El Paso the Radiologists and Radiation Safety Officers refused to use RA's or PA's because well over half of our income was medicare/medicaid. This is both in hospitals and imaging centers. They also refused to let them do stress tests because they were not illegible to be on the RAM license at the facility. This was not the case at the cardiologists office because they injected or ordered the injection under the doctors license and there was official no way to tell who ordered the injection. When I was there we were negotiating with the safety officer because it says that a PA can order or authorize the performance of any test as long as it was diagnostic in nature; again this is interpretation of the laws. But the state had told us that that a PA is not allowed to use their supervising doctors license at the hospital. There is one RA that I know of that works in a vein care clinic, but he also has to work part time at the hospital as a technologist because they do not give him many hours. I have another friend that is an RA and has no problem finding jobs in Texas, and she pretty much does whatever the radiologist delegates to her on her own.

 

As far as appropriately trained goes, I would like to see how is that easy to get? I know the AAPA is talking to the ASRT to develop something on that matter, but this matter with the RA's has suddenly put this in question mainly due to our reactions on the matter. You can be recognized as an unlicensed technologist, but you cannot operate fluoro, and I believe you can only do still regular x-ray. To get the education necessary is at least a year in most places. So far that is all the state is looking for in order to be "properly trained." I had talked to the state since I am a registered RT®, among other things, and they still can't give me an answer on if I could operate fluoro on my own. It would seem the two laws contradict each other and the state has not caught up yet. This is same issue with the new requirements the state just set for Radiation Safety Officers. Even doctors cannot be RSO's without the proper continuing ed. Older RSO's are grandfathered in, but even a Radiologist cannot just put their name on a facility license without the continuing ed classes. If you are a tech you cannot be an RSO unless you have a minimum of a masters degree. I was told by the state this was because Dr's and technologists of all types were declaring as RSO's and then had no idea what they were doing. Hence these guys are in short supply, and pretty much have whatever they decide is pretty much what the facility will go by. I know the Cardiologists were against this RSO change, because if they lost their current RSO they were screwed unless they had been on a license within the last 10 years and could be grandfathered in. So my point is that some places are happy with the grey, but it depends on the RSO. But the black and white of the law is correct. They cannot independently run the fluoro unless you want to try and hit that grey area or bend the rules. Who wants to take that chance with the state these days and lose your license and hence your cash cow in radiology. Remember there are few departments in a hospital that make money, and one of the cash cows happens to be radiology. Well this just goes to show that three month old threads are still alive!!!!!

 

RT® (MR) (CT) (N) ARRT

CNMT - NCT - NMTCB

PA-S

[rysmith]

Neo, all the facts I stated are correct and backed by the Texas administrative code (TAC). If you go to the website I provided you can read all abou it. As far as training be easy, that is just my opinion. Again, the TAC provides a guideline for the training which is under ther alternate training requirements for PA's. There is also a list of radiology teaching facilities approved by Texas department of health on the TDH website. One of the schools do a 3 day course where on the first day they send you a module to do online then days 2 & 3 they follow you while you perform fluoro at you work site. The other option is to complete the AAPA/ASRRT 40 hour cme interactive webinar fluoroscopy prep course for PA's plus training the physicians provide. So that being said, PA's can perform flluoro legally in Tx if the above requirements are met. Read it in the TAC for yourself. If anyone knows different at least provide the documents or links to back it, not just he said she said.

[Rysdad]

RA's spend a TON-O-Time in the fluoro lab doing GI studies - Rad PA's do all the cool stuff and can go on the floors, round, write scripts, see patients AND if you get tired of Rad you go do something else.

 

I'm a Rad Tech (my son is in PA school), and I just wanted to echo this statement. While the Radiologists read images, the RA administers barium. A LOT of barium. A PA would probably be able to move on to a different area of specialization. An RA, well...

[NeoTrion]

Here you go. You not only have to be trained but also authorized, according to our inspector. They want to keep track because of big brother. I am still waiting to hear if I would be authorized since I obviously have the training. TDH and the inspector said "They would get back to me." So far there are no PA/NP's on RAM licenses in the state of texas, but mind you that is specifically nuclear medicine/PET.

 

RT® (MR) (CT) (N) (ARRT)

CNMT - NCT - (NMTCB)

mrt_table.doc

RPA.pdf

mrt_rules[1].doc

[DavidnSF]

RA's Radiologists Assistant aren't authorized to practice in many states. Whereas; PA's are. I would stick with being a PA.

In California, PA's are able to perform fluoroscopic procedures. For those PA's looking for a resource to do Fluoroscopy go to RayosEducation.com they have up to date information on Fluoroscopic practice exams.

[MRAD]

Rad PA's will eventually be phased out of radiology and replaced with RA's.

[MRAD]

PA's in radiology should consider themselves as guest. Most if not all have no radiology background and believe they are entitled to use fluoro. PA's are an essential part of the healthcare team but honestly i dont see the benefits of a regular PA in radiology.

[MRAD]

Self entitlement wont stop the RA movement.

[Super Duper]

Self entitlement wont stop the RA movement.

 

It's a movement? Do y'all march around holding signs and publishing manifestos in rarely read news papers?

[Super Duper]

PA's in radiology should consider themselves as guest. Most if not all have no radiology background and believe they are entitled to use fluoro. PA's are an essential part of the healthcare team but honestly i dont see the benefits of a regular PA in radiology.

 

If this argument is indicative of a typical RA's ability to use logic in reason in a persuasive argument, I would say the Radiology PAs are safe for now.

[MRAD]

If this argument is indicative of a typical RA's ability to use logic in reason in a persuasive argument, I would say the Radiology PAs are safe for now.

 

Ra's/ Supertechs call them what ever you like reimbursement will be the same for both occupations "85 %" . At the end of the day its my opinion i was unaware i was addressing my state representative but i guess statements like " Fluoro will eventually be granted to us" sounds much better lol. Really that's why the American College of Radiolology endorses HR 1148 as well as the ARRT.

[MRAD]

Its a forum not the house of representatives.

[Super Duper]

Ra's/ Supertechs call them what ever you like reimbursement will be the same for both occupations "85 %" . At the end of the day its my opinion i was unaware i was addressing my state representative but i guess statements like " Fluoro will eventually be granted to us" sounds much better lol. Really that's why the American College of Radiolology endorses HR 1148 as well as the ARRT.

 

Who the hell are you responding to? Where did I ever mention reimbursement rates, Fluoro, or the ARRT? My only point (and this post proves it) was that, apparently, the bar is not set to high in the logic and reasoning department at RA school.

 

Its a forum not the house of representatives.

 

Exactly! Even among ordinary forum posts, you manage to look incompetent. Here is my impersonation of you:

 

Herp a durp I do Fluoro derp! PA are a guest in radeeology. I know percentages. hurrrrrr

 

Certainly, no one who has made it through PA school is worried about YOU taking their job.

[/end troll feed]