Is it worth it?

[jkarram7]

I met one while shadowing who said that she felt the nurses she worked with didn't like her because the NP title made them think that she thought she was better than them, even though she didn't. Her exact words " I wish I could just switch my title to PA because they seem to treat him better and we basically do the same thing anyway." Probably not true everywhere but worth a thought.

GRASS IS ALWAYS GREENER....

[sas5814]

22 minutes ago, Boatswain2PA said:

I've found quite a few, especially the new NP grads who realize they don't know how to read an EKG, etc.

 

After I retired from the Army I was at my first job in a rural health clinic. After I had been there a year they hired a new grad NP as well. She had been a nurse for a long time but just recently finished her NP training. I was in my office and she came and got me and asked if I would come look at a head wound for her. I assumed it was someething complicated and she wanted the benefit of my military experience. When I saw the patient it was a 10 cm uncomplicated head lac. I asked what her question was and she said (in front of the patient) "well I have watched people suture but I have never done it myself."

To say I was stunned would be an understatement. Now I work with quite a few NPs in urgent care and have found their skills to be very good so my story is anecdotal and not intended to paint with the broad brush. I suspect getting out of school and finding yourself constantly confronted with problems you aren't sure how to manage is frustrating.

[mgriffiths]

Those that are quoting plumber salaries at over $100k, that is not the norm.  As was said above, plumbers that make large salaries almost exclusively walk into a family business that is already established.  Lawsuits in manual labor - ALL THE TIME!!  No, they usually aren't multimillion dollar lawsuits, but they still occur.

As for whether being a PA is worth it - it all depends on your perspective and goals in life.  If you want to make maximum money while working the least hours, then you picked the wrong profession.  I've only been out of school since December, but so far have loved my job.  Yes, there are crappy parts, but that's every job.  Do I worry about malpractice, yeah, but not all the time.  I try to focus on helping my patients and work hard to be efficient while providing the highest quality care.  If there is something I don't know or am not sure about I consult one of the docs who is around and DOCUMENT the consult.

Being someone who worked in manual labor and skilled professions through high school/college/beyond I can say that I am thrilled that there are no plans for me to go back.  Student loans suck, but there are ways to get massive help with those and even if you don't, if you work hard and live simply for a few years you can pay them off very quickly.

[BruceBanner]

I always tell students I precept what specifically I find so stressful and unpleasant about medicine, but also that I'm only 1 guy and there are PAs out there who love their work. I think like any type of work, it has to do with both personality fit and the intrinsic qualities of the job---things like autonomy, creativity, and impact/recognition.

Many people look at our work and think "wow, they really have it made". A lot of it is relative. If I was swinging a hammer all day on a roof in the hot sun, I'd think this looks like a sweet gig too. But when you're getting killed by demanding patients all day, it's easy to look wistfully at the guy outside mowing lawns. I think it's important to regularly take a step back and make an inventory of all the good things. If you can somehow avoid burnout in this profession and pay off your debts, in the grand scheme of work it can be pretty good.

[sas5814]

For me the short answer is yes..it is worth it. Becoming a PA changed my Army career and then my whole life. It opened up opportunities and let me earn a comfortable living and provide for my family.Do some days suck? Yup... Are there days when I have visions of violence in my head while patients are acting foolish? Yup... But I decided a long time ago there are way worse things in the world and the perfect, happy-to-go-to-work-every-day job is the unicorn of employment. I know so many people who hate what they do. I know people who work hard and long hours and barely get by. I know people living on $1200 a month of disability.

So when I'm having one of those days I take a step back..take a deep breath...and remind myself of how lucky I am.

[DizzyJ]

13 hours ago, corpsman89 said:

This thread is brutal. Makes me wonder if I should have just stayed working in the Lab. It seems like every other provider has some sort of break. MD/DOs have massive social respect and recognition, and absolute autonomy. NPs have their independence, and relatively low student debt.

PAs seem to get the brunt of everything. Hardly any social respect ("O' cool, you're an assistant, so you take my B/P and weight?"), Increasing student debt, no backup career (NPs have their RN), no independence, etc. Its rough. Hopefully some of this can change.

MD/DO also have much more debt and time put into it.  I wouldn't say that have a back up career to fall back on either.  NPs have independence, but what does that really look like.  I've practice in Ohio, California, Hawaii, and Northern Mariana Islands.  I saw zero difference in independence working with NPs.  For instance, Hawaii is an NP independent state.  Yet, the PAs and NPs working in the ED had the exact same scope and requirements for staffing with an attending. 

I've encountered less and less people actually stating "oh you're an assistant".  I can't even remember the last time someone assumed I was an MA instead of a PA.  Of course, they may just be assuming I'm an MA and just going with it not responding back looking for confirmation. 

[GetMeOuttaThisMess]

In short, I think if one is a type A personality and feels strongly about others using what meets your criteria for common sense, then I think you're in for a big world of hurt in this profession. Yes, I am a charter member of said group myself. Maybe that's why I've traditionally looked for different situations every 5-10 years.

[AlexaBarret]

On 05.07.2017 at 2:58 PM, TWR said:

I see a lot of posts as to salaries for our work.  Some by specialty others by years of practice.  I had an eye opener on Monday when I called a plumber for a non emergency kitchen sink issue.  They came the same day and fixed the problem in literally less time than it took him to walk from his truck in ripped jeans and a not so clean white tee shirt.  He certainly knew what he was doing as he fixed the issue in less than 3 minutes.  Upon standing up again he says "how does $125 sound".  I was quiet for a second and countered $100 cash which he quickly agreed to.  After he left I thought is college and the huge student debt that we are burdened with after graduation, much  job dissatisfaction, used as everything but a floor mat worth the $100,000 a year?  Maybe college isn't the most important thing in the world.  Many plumbers and electricians, A/C techs charge just to come to ring your doorbell.  This by no means a put down of skilled labor but what value is placed on these services compared to many of us who deal with life and death, malpractice, surly OPs etc?  Just venting.  Thanks

I think college isn`t the most important thing in our life! The only thing that matters is being happy and enjoying! A beloved job is better than a college. I think he is happier than you are, sorry. Maybe you aren`t at your place. Are you sure about your occupation?:)

[sas5814]

On 7/5/2017 at 3:45 PM, GetMeOuttaThisMess said:

 

Missed this one in the Bill of Rights. As I've stated before, medical care is also a privilege at present. Now, should it be a right? Tell me how to realistically provide it.

 

Could not agree more and I get all weird any time someone says this. We haven't made food and shelter a right for everyone but health care is? Sorry...it is a commodity like any other. Just because someone neeeeeeeeeeeds health care doesn't make it a right. People need food but starve every day. People need shelter but die outside every day. I'm not saying any of it is a good thing or right but it is the way of the world. Sure there is a better way out there someone but all the bleating about health care being a right wears me out. Lets just skip the "right" buzzword and figure out a way to provide it.

[pennylv]

On 7/5/2017 at 5:19 PM, BruceBanner said:

I think for those who see this as a calling, it is worth it. For those of us who see it more as a job, it isn't. I'm neutral most days, hate some of them, and never have had a day where I was excited to come to work. If a palatable non-clinical opportunity came up I would take it in a heartbeat.

I’m almost 4 years in and I’m glad I’m realizing so early on that this isn’t “my calling” as I thought it was for so many years. The stress, the burn out, getting cursed out by patients because you didn’t prescribe the abx they desperately need for there cold, the risk of getting sued are not worth it. There are those days that I feel I’m making a difference and feel like this is worth it but those are VERY few. I’m on the look out for a non-clinical opportunity but find those are hard to come by. Continuing my search and hoping Lady Luck is on my side. 

[sas5814]

The "calling" is a great thing if you find it but it has never been that way for me. I work for a Catholic organization and they talk about "the calling" when they meant work for free, donate some of your money back to their charities, don't take your PTO so you lose it all in the name of "the calling."

This is a job. I trade my time and talent for money and benefits. I enjoy my work for the most part. I enjoy all the people I work with but this is a transactional relationship and all the clabber about "the calling"is an attempt to use guilt to take money from people who earned it.

 

[Guest UVAPAC]

On 7/6/2017 at 9:11 AM, jkarram7 said:

Speaking as someone who's dad is a plumber: yeah it's worth it.

Don't be fooled into thinking that all plumbers are going around making 200k just for doing easy repairs. It takes a different kind of person to be happy working in manual labor, and I'd be willing to bet that kind of person isn't someone who frequents this forum. I thought I would like it, one summer working with my dad in highschool proved me wrong.

Unless you're ok with getting called to wade knee deep in someone else's crap for a couple hours, only to have them yell at you and say that somehow it's your fault and you made a mistake from the last time you were there, and then subsequently have them refuse to pay, you really shouldn't be a plumber. (see, everyone is getting yelled at) Not to mention getting sued when you do make a mistake and ruin someone's house and now you need to shell out cash to replace the flooring and all the damaged goods. I've seen my dad spiral into depression over lawsuits. This is America, no one is safe from getting sued. 

Also, the plumbers that make this kind of money are the ones that own their own business. To be able to get contracts you need to be a master plumber, which can take 10 years of apprenticeship and journeyman level work in which you can maybe make 50K. Also, you forget that a lot of these plumbers come into family businesses with name recognition in the community and a set list of clients, this makes it more difficult for someone who just up and starts their own business. Couple that with the fact that a lot of these businesses are closing thanks to larger companies charging less, it's really not all it's cracked up to be. (also the havoc manual labor has had on my dads back isn't too great either) 

That being said, I wouldn't discourage anyone from being a plumber if you want to, college is not for everyone, but don't fall into the trap that it's a better job. But like Boatswain2PA said, the grass is always greener...

Edit: I don't mean to say that this is everyone's experience. This is just mine, and one of the reasons I decided on medicine rather than a trade school. Every job sucks to some extent, that's why they pay you, the more they pay you, usually the more it sucks. Not to say high paying jobs can't also be amazing. 

 

 

For what it's worth, I had a plumber come and install a new bathtub.  That entailed cutting through a floor, detaching the old drain and installing a new drain.  (A different person removed the old tub, and placed the new tub).  He was at my house for 2.5 hours in total.  My bill was $275.  When I was speaking to a patient who is also a plumber, and complained about the $275 price... he said "that is actually a pretty good deal."

[GapLustrum]

It sounds banal but if it's not worth it, quit your job. If it is worth it, don't. Ifs and buts to this don't really matter. If you don't want to quit your job, it's by definition worth it to you. If you do want to quit your job, it is by definition not worth it to you.

You can't go back in time and re-do your decisions in life. Most of the time you can't even be sure if the alternative choice would be that much better. The one thing you can be sure of is that dwelling on things outside of your control and being ungrateful for your present life will contribute to your misery.

[sas5814]

Agree. A friend once said...when I'm in my own head I'm my own worst enemy.  I work in a giant organization that is going to do what it does and doesn't give a tiny damn about what I think about anything. Once I finally wrapped my head around that and let it all go I was a much happier man.

[weezianna]

I see my own history reflected in many of the posts on this thread.  In becoming a PA, I left a medical profession that I was extremely skilled in, to answer a "calling" to become a PA.  My student debt wasn't bad (graduated a state school 20+ years ago), and paid it off in a year by throwing every extra dime at it - nothing like what new grads have today.  I've had many great years and tremendous experiences in being privileged to take care of, and be trusted by so many patients and their families.  However, it's changed - as a primary care provider, I'm a dime a dozen.  More time is spent in paperwork than peoplework.  It's quantity, not quality.  Those of you who are loved and respected, bravo, but there's another side of the coin, too - we're still subordinates by definition, and even the most skilled among us are still lesser beings in the eyes of many patients and medical personnel.  I'm just finishing a locums assignment as a solo provider in a clinic as the new doc is on board.  A few weeks ago, management took us all to dinner - me, business reps and the new doc - and raved about how the clinic will "at last have a REAL doctor on staff".

[Cideous]

On 7/5/2017 at 9:22 AM, mmiller3 said:

The part in bold is only partly true. I have a few friends who are plumbers. One owns his own business and nets almost $200k a year on average. The other works for another company--he does not pay for his truck or tools, takes call twice a year, and makes more than I do. Yes he drives around a lot, but he makes money at just about every job.

I question my decision to become a PA just about every day now. Medicine is not what it was even 10 years ago anymore. Too many other jobs requiring less emotional and mental investment, not to mention the financial burden for some from the schooling.

 

And I bet he sleeps just fine at night not worrying that he has "killed" anyone....

[Guest HanSolo]

Ya'll are acting like all plumbers make 200k. I keep hearing this from people about how well plumbers get paid, but it's always been "I know a guy..."

The stats say the median wage is about $25/hour. 

 

[EMEDPA]

John Murphy, business manager of United Association Local 1 in New York City, said the local’s 6,000 members worked primarily on major construction projects, like office towers and hospitals. Union apprentices at Local 1 start at $14 an hour and make more than $50 per hour after completing a five-year apprenticeship and passing a test to advance to journeyman plumber status, Mr. Murphy said. Experienced plumbers can make $200,000 a year, he said — but that typically means many hours on the job. Openings for apprenticeships tend to vary with the economy; if the outlook calls for significant new construction, more openings occur. Local 1 tries to maintain its apprentices at about 20 percent of its active membership, he said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/your-money/sweet-smell-of-money-for-plumbers.html

[UGoLong]

There are many jobs that pay more than a PA. (I even had some.)

If you find yourself fantasizing about having one of them, you might just be daydreaming or you might not be in the right job (no two are exactly the same) or career for you.

Nothing wrong with that; disatisfaction sometimes can lead us to a better place.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Guest HanSolo]

20 hours ago, EMEDPA said:

John Murphy, business manager of United Association Local 1 in New York City, said the local’s 6,000 members worked primarily on major construction projects, like office towers and hospitals. Union apprentices at Local 1 start at $14 an hour and make more than $50 per hour after completing a five-year apprenticeship and passing a test to advance to journeyman plumber status, Mr. Murphy said. Experienced plumbers can make $200,000 a year, he said — but that typically means many hours on the job. Openings for apprenticeships tend to vary with the economy; if the outlook calls for significant new construction, more openings occur. Local 1 tries to maintain its apprentices at about 20 percent of its active membership, he said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/your-money/sweet-smell-of-money-for-plumbers.html

From the same article...

"Plumbers and the related trades of pipe fitters and steamfitters, who often work in commercial and industrial settings, earned median pay of about $49,000 a year nationally, well above the $35,000 average for all occupations, according to 2012 data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The top 10 percent earn more than $84,000 a year. The average in big markets like Chicago and New York is about $70,000. (One caveat: The statistics are gathered from employers subject to paying unemployment insurance, so they don’t include the roughly 11 percent of plumbers who are self-employed)"

Anyway, I don't really give a hoot about plumber's salaries. They seem to do well for their trade. I just think it's funny because the vast majority of the general public thinks we have "good jobs," but here we are talking about plumbing...

If I am going to get covered in raw sewage, I'd rather get it from the source than an aggregate of the entire hospital!

[EMEDPA]

agreed- just wanted to mention they can make good money if they hustle and work in a busy city, like NYC. I wouldn't want their job either. 

[mgriffiths]

14 hours ago, HanSolo said:

If I am going to get covered in raw sewage, I'd rather get it from the source than an aggregate of the entire hospital!

One of the best sentences I have ever read...actually snorted the water I was drinking and now my nose hurts.  I blame you.