"A New Type of Physician" --DMS???

[KMD16]

I predict that more PA will enroll at Lynchburg program.

Given the current landscape of things, I encourage every PA to pursue a doctorate degree.

DNP sh!t is getting very annoying (side note). Just my 2 cent.

[DizzyJ]

2 hours ago, ventana said:

University of Nebraska needs to come out with this at a far reduced tuition.... 

Yes!  Paid only $3500 for my MPAS

[EMEDPA]

42 minutes ago, DizzyJ said:

Yes!  Paid only $3500 for my MPAS

$1800 in 1998, paid by employer out of cme.

[KMD16]

Yes!  Paid only $3500 for my MPAS

I think that I paid similar amount if not less and I’m so glad I did before the price went up. It was interested to see how the price went up after UNMC-MPAS program had a nice national publication that they were the cheapest master degree program.

[ProSpectre]

22 hours ago, PACali said:

The DMS degree at Lynchburg has an agreement with Arrowhead orthopedic PA residency. Basically, 18 months of residency training will get you a DMS degree from Lynchburg. No additional tuition necessary but of course you are working at a resident salary.  

https://www.orthosurgerypafellowship.com/ospaf-new 

Same thing with the Arrowhead emergency medicine PA fellowship. 18 months of residency training and you get a DMS degree from Lynchburg at the end. I think just a matter of time, Lynchburg will work with PA residencies across the country.  

I think this is a better model, just like the military PA DsC degree.  This is definitely better than the DNP model. 

 

 

I agree with your sentiment that tying a DMS degree to a residency is the best option overall. Do residents still do all of the Lynchburg coursework plus the residency to get the degree? I still think the didactic curriculum itself is stronger at LMU's DMS program (based off of simply comparing the two, obviously I have no first hand experience with either), but adding a residency component is a step in the right direction. I hope moving forward there are more models like this though, and that Lynchburg does begin to accept a greater number of residencies/fellowships in various specialties. Currently the number of Lynchburg DMS students that will actually be doing that specific residency is likely to be quite small (both because not all want to work in orthopedic surgery and because the residency only takes 4-6 people per year, which could be the rate limiting step). 

If this residency model could be scaled up and standardized for Lynchburg and other DMS degrees (and if LMU began to offer the same option), I think it would be a winning combination for PA postgraduate education. 

[Joelseff]

The director of the ATSU APA masters program I attended told me at a CAPA conference that he was working on a DMS that would just look at the curriculum of our PA programs and Masters programs and see if it is equivalent to a DMS and would only require a few extra classes then they would grant a DMS. This was 2 years ago so I don't know where it is now. I'll shoot him an email and ask him.

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[marktheshark89]

That would be fantastic...drexel also has a program in the works slated to start in september (they havent formally announced it yet)...i dont know any of the details of it though. 

[EMEDPA]

9 hours ago, marktheshark89 said:

That would be fantastic...drexel also has a program in the works slated to start in september (they havent formally announced it yet)...i dont know any of the details of it though. 

that has been in the works for a few years.  it will be a DHSc.

http://drexel.edu/cnhp/academics/doctoral/DHSc - Doctorate of Health Science/

[PACali]

12 hours ago, ProSpectre said:

I agree with your sentiment that tying a DMS degree to a residency is the best option overall. Do residents still do all of the Lynchburg coursework plus the residency to get the degree?

 

Yes, they still do all the Lynchburg coursework plus the residency. 

[Joelseff]

Spoke to my friend. He left ATSU last year but says they are still working on their doctorate program. He did recommend Lynchburg as the director is an ATSU DHSC alum and a friend of his. I asked him about Lincoln but he has not heard much about it.

 

He states a new PA program is starting up in Louisiana and he has been asked to look into a doctorate program there. He is yet undecided.

 

It looks like doctorates are going to be popping up. I had high hopes for the Lincoln DMS since they were pretty bold about trying to make it like a bridge but that looks like it got or will get squashed. At the very least it's been changed to where it has been de-clawed...i am considering Lynchburg but unsure yet. I don't really need a doctorate (who really does tho) but IF I am to do this, I wanna get it done before my daughter starts college in 2 years.

 

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[Joelseff]

Yes!  Paid only $3500 for my MPAS

[emoji55] I paid... Ummm a lot more for my MS [emoji17] [emoji35][emoji34]

 

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[DizzyJ]

7 hours ago, Joelseff said:

I paid... Ummm a lot more for my MS

 

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The Nebraska program was the post PA master's completion program.  3 classes, a ROL paper, and logging patients for so many hours.  The should def consider a DMS program that is similar in work and price. The program is now $18,000 and is 4 classes and a master's project.  

[Joelseff]

The Nebraska program was the post PA master's completion program.  3 classes, a ROL paper, and logging patients for so many hours.  The should def consider a DMS program that is similar in work and price. The program is now $18,000 and is 4 classes and a master's project.  

My masters was 2 years of classes and a masters project.

Will a short DMS curriculum add anything to. PA education?

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[DizzyJ]

2 hours ago, Joelseff said:

My masters was 2 years of classes and a masters project.

Will a short DMS curriculum add anything to. PA education?

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Nope....my masters didn't add anything either.  The only reason I did it was the requirment in my state was that I needed a masters in order to prescribe.  Why a masters?  Just because NPs have a masters.  So, there may one day be another dumb law change that may require a doctorate in order to do something....why?  Just because NPs have one.  Make any sense?  Nope!  

[EMEDPA]

5 hours ago, DizzyJ said:

The Nebraska program was the post PA master's completion program.  3 classes, a ROL paper, and logging patients for so many hours.  The should def consider a DMS program that is similar in work and price. The program is now $18,000 and is 4 classes and a master's project.  

when I did it in 98 it was 2 classes, health policy and health ethics, plus the paper and 800 hrs of clinical time. I already had a BS when I went to PA school and got a 2nd from PA school so I had no issue with an easy MS program as I really felt I should have earned it instead of bs #2.

[Joelseff]

Nope....my masters didn't add anything either.  The only reason I did it was the requirment in my state was that I needed a masters in order to prescribe.  Why a masters?  Just because NPs have a masters.  So, there may one day be another dumb law change that may require a doctorate in order to do something....why?  Just because NPs have one.  Make any sense?  Nope!  

My masters was two years of clinical courses (think refreshers from PA school) on IM, Peds, Women's Health, psych, Ortho etc. I wouldnt say it was Leaps ahead of what I learned in PA school but definitely a good reinforcement of it. We had a big paper in medical writing class that was treated as the "capstone" paper. I don't regret getting the masters though i only got it for parity with NPs Lol

 

 

[Joelseff]

Ok, I have been looking into Lynchburg's program and would have to agree with the poster who said it looks like fluff classes. Not much clinical medicine like Lincoln's. Also it costs $24k! I know LMU is more but their curriculum looks more "robust" and likely more applicable to clinical practice. 

[ProSpectre]

3 hours ago, mcclane said:

I feel it is unfair to denigrate Lynchburg coursework as "fluff" simply because the program and the coursework is not purely clinical.  The mission statement of the program is quite clear.

My goal wasn't to denigrate the degree; I think for some people, it may be a good option if they are simply looking for a doctorate to give a leg up in getting administrative roles or to teach. I also like that they are incorporating a residency option into the degree (which I think strengthens it considerably), but this option is currently in its early stages. 

However, for a degree with the title "Doctor of Medical Science", I think the Lynchburg degree should have some actual medical science coursework involved in the didactic portion, which it appears decidedly light on (compared to the LMU DMS, which is how my comment above was framed).

I've read the mission statement, and the first part talks about emphasizing clinical proficiency, which should be the primary goal of a clinical doctorate for PAs, which is what a Doctor of Medical Science degree is. It isn't a doctorate of education or a doctorate of health administration, and in my opinion shouldn't substitute courses like that for courses that are clinically relevant and grounded in the medical sciences, hence my use of the term "fluff" in regards to a clinical degree.  

[PACali]

8 hours ago, Joelseff said:

Ok, I have been looking into Lynchburg's program and would have to agree with the poster who said it looks like fluff classes. Not much clinical medicine like Lincoln's. Also it costs $24k! I know LMU is more but their curriculum looks more "robust" and likely more applicable to clinical practice. 

To me, LMU's curriculum is like going back to PA school again. I would rather do a residency. 

5 hours ago, ProSpectre said:

My goal wasn't to denigrate the degree; I think for some people, it may be a good option if they are simply looking for a doctorate to give a leg up in getting administrative roles or to teach. I also like that they are incorporating a residency option into the degree (which I think strengthens it considerably), but this option is currently in its early stages. 

However, for a degree with the title "Doctor of Medical Science", I think the Lynchburg degree should have some actual medical science coursework involved in the didactic portion, which it appears decidedly light on (compared to the LMU DMS, which is how my comment above was framed).

I've read the mission statement, and the first part talks about emphasizing clinical proficiency, which should be the primary goal of a clinical doctorate for PAs, which is what a Doctor of Medical Science degree is. It isn't a doctorate of education or a doctorate of health administration, and in my opinion shouldn't substitute courses like that for courses that are clinically relevant and grounded in the medical sciences, hence my use of the term "fluff" in regards to a clinical degree.  

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This is why I told my student to do a residency first and then apply to Lynchburg. I would prefer a solid PA residency over LMU's clinical training.  Your resume will look much better with a residency and a doctorate. 

 I am a big proponent of PA residency, even for primary care. Combine the Doctorate with the residency would be ideal, such as the army program https://www.baylor.edu/graduate/pa/index.php?id=88511  It is a solid program. 

 

[Joelseff]

This is why I told my student to do a residency first and then apply to Lynchburg. I would prefer a solid PA residency over LMU's clinical training.  Your resume will look much better with a residency and a doctorate.   I am a big proponent of PA residency, even for primary care. Combine the Doctorate with the residency would be ideal, such as the army program https://www.baylor.edu/graduate/pa/index.php?id=88511  It is a solid program.    

 

 

I think that Baylor program would be awesome! It's not open to non active service members or specifically non military PA's though is it?    

About LMU's curriculum looking like rehash of PA school, well I would say my MS program was like that. And I didn't mind. It actually strengthened and deepened my PA education. If LMU digs deeper in the PA school courses then I would still prefer it over the Lynchburg program. I read the course titles of Lynchburg and it reminded me of a FNP program (real talk). It's also expensive for what you get. I think some DHSC programs have better clinical courses (at least in description) than Lynchburg's and costs a lot less.

 

Lynchburg's only advantage to me is a shorter course (12 mos vs 24mos at LMU) but I'm not impressed enough to sign up now for it.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

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[ProSpectre]

28 minutes ago, PACali said:

To me, LMU's curriculum is like going back to PA school again. I would rather do a residency. 

This is why I told my student to do a residency first and then apply to Lynchburg. I would prefer a solid PA residency over LMU's clinical training.  Your resume will look much better with a residency and a doctorate. 

 I am a big proponent of PA residency, even for primary care. Combine the Doctorate with the residency would be ideal, such as the army program https://www.baylor.edu/graduate/pa/index.php?id=88511  It is a solid program. 

 

I completely agree, I've looked at the Baylor EM residency and I think it is a great model for postgraduate PA training; it's said to be quite intense, even as far as residencies go, and the DSc awarded at completion is the cherry on top (not crazy about the "DScPAS" title though). Unfortunately, it is the only one of its kind, and it is only available to experienced active duty Army/Air Force PAs. 

My previous posts were tailored specifically to the DMS degree itself since I was unaware they had finally made steps toward allowing the residency to be a part of it. I'm still going to hold my ground on having additional medical science courses as part of any DMS degree, but I agree with you that residency should be a part of post-graduate education hands-down (and strengthens Lynchburg's DMS in my opinion). I hope that LMU catches on and takes appropriately vetted residencies towards the clinical work portion of their degree as well.

Regardless of the degree chosen (Lynchburg, LMU, or any future options), I do think a reputable residency is likely to be the greatest contributor to an increase in clinical competency and additional skill sets, rather than a doctorate itself. I definitely plan on doing a residency myself, but a doctorate is still up in the air. 

[Joelseff]

I feel it is unfair to denigrate Lynchburg coursework as "fluff" simply because the program and the coursework is not purely clinical.  The mission statement of the program is quite clear.

I understand your point but then why call it a "Doctorate of Medical Science" when it is more like a "Doctorate of Medical Administration?"

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[mikespa12]

They unfortunately had pull the that bill off the table. It would be a huge hurdle to go through between physicians and nps. 

Doubt it'll be pass within the next 10 years. DMS - i feel just another money grabbing from school.

https://www.aafp.org/news/government-medicine/20180326dmsscope.html

[Guest abush27]

I think everyone should watch this from the Tennessee Medical Association. Doctor of Medical science would not have been able to refer to themselves as “doctors” in clinical setting but refer to themselves as “Essential Access Practitioner”....

https://youtu.be/k-CzbEaWNfU

[Joelseff]

I think everyone should watch this from the Tennessee Medical Association. Doctor of Medical science would not have been able to refer to themselves as “doctors” in clinical setting but refer to themselves as “Essential Access Practitioner”....

Who cares? this bill is dead.

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