Jump to content

"A New Type of Physician" --DMS???


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 151
  • Created
  • Last Reply

It was described as core knowledge everyone should have regardless of specialty rather than primary care. What that will be is anyone's guess right now.

It's the same name but different curriculum. The Tennessee bill being contemplated says that the DMS has to come from LMU in order to get the privileges they are considering.

 

 

Edit: It seems I am wrong on this. I thought I had read this somewhere but can't seem to find it. Lesson learned on citing my sources.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lots of ramifications here.  Both good and bad.  

 

Good that PAs are pushing for some form of independence.  Breaking free from physician ownership.  It needs to happen.  But this just seems to be the medical board blowing smoke up your a**.  You can be called Dr. pursuant to the medical board telling you what to do.

 

But this also takes an already tiered system and makes it even more convoluted.  Why not create more bridge programs instead?  So you will have PAs who are not as good as DMS who are not as good as MD/DOs?  

 

And how many people railed against changing the name from Physician Assistant to Physician Associate but will be completely fine with creating an entirely new category/profession?  "It's just so confusing for patients!!...??"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Baby Steps!

 

Many of you sound like you want something absolutely perfect before supporting something like the DMS. Nothing is ever going to be absolutely perfect the first time around. Things take time. Minds require time to be persuaded and changed. I think this DMS bill is a MAJOR step in the right direction, and even if it doesn't give us equal platform as a MD/DO, its a start in the right direction. Overtime we can pass new laws and legislation that enable more authority and responsibility for PAs. With each legislative win, we get a step closer. No legislative bill will pass with the perfect autonomy you desire. PAs are too connected to our Physician colleagues. We need to change the name of the profession, in addition, creating a DMS from a PA with experience and extra schooling by MD/DO/Phd faculty members is a also a step towards autonomy.

 

I think residencies are also a noble and smart move, but I worry about creating so many loops to jump through that few PAs will pursue this tract and the DMS will die. We need to think like NPs if we want to get on equal footing with them. They are gaining full practice authority WITHOUT a residency, some NPs don't even have hardly any experience. This is because they aren't tied to Physicians. This once again goes back to the name change issue. If we really are serious about changing the direction the PA profession goes, we need to change the name. No congressmen/senator will pass a bill allowing Physician ASSISTANTS to have full practice authority. However, they may not think twice about it for a Physician Associate or DMS.

 

With time and many legislative wins I could easily see people referring to physicians as MD/DO/DMS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's the same name but different curriculum. The Tennessee bill being contemplated says that the DMS has to come from LMU in order to get the privileges they are considering.

Just wanted to correct this. The bill definitely does not specify LMU as the only qualified DMS program. It states: "a graduate of a minimum two-year doctor of medical science program accredited by a regional body under the United States department of education."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here are the problems I see:

 

1.  DMS in this bill would still not be an independent physician.  They would still require MD "oversight."  How is that different from what we have now?

2.  If this passes, then the rest of us PAs will not be as good as the DMSs, therefore not worthy of the greater independence we currently are seeking.  

3.  It sets up two layers of PAs.  DMS and others.  Would the DMSs be called physicians?  I doubt it.  Would they be paid 100% or 85%.  

 

I am only interested if the DMS is truly a new type of independent physician. A bridge from PA to physician.   Not another type of dependent PA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Baby Steps!

 

Many of you sound like you want something absolutely perfect before supporting something like the DMS. Nothing is ever going to be absolutely perfect the first time around. Things take time. Minds require time to be persuaded and changed. I think this DMS bill is a MAJOR step in the right direction, and even if it doesn't give us equal platform as a MD/DO, its a start in the right direction. Overtime we can pass new laws and legislation that enable more authority and responsibility for PAs. With each legislative win, we get a step closer. No legislative bill will pass with the perfect autonomy you desire. PAs are too connected to our Physician colleagues. We need to change the name of the profession, in addition, creating a DMS from a PA with experience and extra schooling by MD/DO/Phd faculty members is a also a step towards autonomy.

 

I think residencies are also a noble and smart move, but I worry about creating so many loops to jump through that few PAs will pursue this tract and the DMS will die. We need to think like NPs if we want to get on equal footing with them. They are gaining full practice authority WITHOUT a residency, some NPs don't even have hardly any experience. This is because they aren't tied to Physicians. This once again goes back to the name change issue. If we really are serious about changing the direction the PA profession goes, we need to change the name. No congressmen/senator will pass a bill allowing Physician ASSISTANTS to have full practice authority. However, they may not think twice about it for a Physician Associate or DMS.

 

With time and many legislative wins I could easily see people referring to physicians as MD/DO/DMS.

Totally agree! Any move forward I think, is a good move. This one seems to be the most bold. And at the same etime we have AAPA pushing the OTP.

 

Try seeing it half full folks.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Baby steps for sure and anything leading towards more independence is good, but I'm thinking about why specifically a DMSc when it is such a new degree to civilian PAs.  I guess then this new super PA could then actually fall into the category of advanced practice provider.  Finally advancing from PA to Dr. PA.  There should be alternative routes to get this "expanded" practice authority without forking out the money for another degree.  What does the Tennessee PA association say about this?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also agree with baby steps.. Waiting for a perfect scenario will further delay our progress as a profession while DNPs keep moving forward. We have to start somewhere and the DMS could be our terminal degree for primary care specialties.

I don't understand why some think we need additional residency after PA-C employment in primary care for 3-5yrs and 2yrs doing DMS program or something equivalent. What is residency btw? Is it not training to become a healthcare provider something that PA-C with 3-5yrs experience get? Also, studies shows that there's no major differences in patient outcomes in primary care settings between MD/DO, NP or PA. Why make the program extra long for absolutely no reason?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also agree with baby steps.. Waiting for a perfect scenario will further delay our progress as a profession while DNPs keep moving forward. We have to start somewhere and the DMS could be our terminal degree for primary care specialties.

I don't understand why some think we need additional residency after PA-C employment in primary care for 3-5yrs and 2yrs doing DMS program or something equivalent. What is residency btw? Is it not training to become a healthcare provider something that PA-C with 3-5yrs experience get? Also, studies shows that there's no major differences in patient outcomes in primary care settings between MD/DO, NP or PA. Why make the program extra long for absolutely no reason?

Residency is magical

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also agree with baby steps.. Waiting for a perfect scenario will further delay our progress as a profession while DNPs keep moving forward. We have to start somewhere and the DMS could be our terminal degree for primary care specialties.

I don't understand why some think we need additional residency after PA-C employment in primary care for 3-5yrs and 2yrs doing DMS program or something equivalent. What is residency btw? Is it not training to become a healthcare provider something that PA-C with 3-5yrs experience get? Also, studies shows that there's no major differences in patient outcomes in primary care settings between MD/DO, NP or PA. Why make the program extra long for absolutely no reason?

From my knowledge on this board, residencies are pretty valuable--yes, even more so than 3-5 years experience in many cases. The sheer amount that a PA can learn in a residency is astounding. There are a couple of threads in which members of some of these residencies talk about their experiences. One PA fellow accumulated something like 800-900 ultrasounds, 50ish independent intubations, same amount of chest tubes, arterial lines, etc. On top of that they attend conferences, lectures, and continue to take tests to gain more knowledge. Comparing a quality residency to 3-5 years experience difficult at best.

 

With that being said, I would agree that adding a residency to the requirements of DMS would just create more loops to jump through and therefore less PAs would peruse this option and the DMS would die. NPs can take DNP classes online and whala--DNP! However, they do not have any increased authority via DNP, sadly they already gained that with just the NP, but that's them, not us. We will NEVER gain full practice authority remaining Physician Assistants--I don't think at least. We must embrace something similar to DMS and a name change to survive.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I meant my comment above to be tongue in cheek... I definitely see the benefits of a residency. I agree with above that it would add more to the requirements. I am not 100% convinced it is necessary though.

 

As far as the DMS movement, when it comes to our independence and name change, DMS might be THE way if it passes. I mean the AMA and others are going to fight OTP tooth and nail but if DMS advances, it's a way to fight the SAME fight with a new tactic. It can potentially expand practice or promote independence for us while at the same time giving us a new name...

 

Again, I dunno where this will lead but as long as I have been on this forum, this is the first time I've felt we are truly moving towards something.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again, I dunno where this will lead but as long as I have been on this forum, this is the first time I've felt we are truly moving towards something.

Which begs the question. Why the hell has this bill and legislation been under the radar? If I didn't happen to find a post by a random person about this bill, we probably would have never even noticed the bill.  I think this forum is crucial to the survival of this profession because it keeps us together and informed. The AAPA is also crucially important but I think often many PAs voices aren't heard within the AAPA. I am always baffled that so many PAs and PA students have never even heard of this forum!! I think we could really raise the bar on our strengths if more PAs navigated this website more often. And why hasn't the AAPA mentioned this legislation? I'm just rambling now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which begs the question. Why the hell has this bill and legislation been under the radar? If I didn't happen to find a post by a random person about this bill, we probably would have never even noticed the bill. I think this forum is crucial to the survival of this profession because it keeps us together and informed. The AAPA is also crucially important but I think often many PAs voices aren't heard within the AAPA. I am always baffled that so many PAs and PA students have never even heard of this forum!! I think we could really raise the bar on our strengths if more PAs navigated this website more often. And why hasn't the AAPA mentioned this legislation? I'm just rambling now.

I would think that the DMS would be under a separate board and in essence a new profession so AAPA would have little control over it. That may be why they aren't involved or shining a huge spotlight on it. Just thoughts...

 

BTW don't want to be "that guy" but I think you meant "raises the question..." ????

 

Now my statement that the AAPA is against the DMS because they would not have control over it is begging the question ????

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would think that the DMS would be under a separate board and in essence a new profession so AAPA would have little control over it. That may be why they aren't involved or shining a huge spotlight on it. Just thoughts...

I think the AAPA would be smart to capitalize this and I would prefer the AAPA to represent DMS's simply because a DMS primary education is that of a PA. It only makes sense.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the AAPA would be smart to capitalize this and I would prefer the AAPA to represent DMS's simply because a DMS primary education is that of a PA. It only makes sense.

Yeah I agree. But this is so new that we don't really know where everyone stands. CAPA is coming up in August... I'll ask some of the upper ups there their opinions on this and on OTP.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I truly think it's bull crap comparing a yr residency or fellowship to 5 yrs in the ER. Just because you get more critical procedures? That's stupid. The expertise comes with seeing the cases that shouldn't go South then ends up going South. Not the ones that are already south. Fast track nightmares are what's valuable in ER.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I truly think it's bull crap comparing a yr residency or fellowship to 5 yrs in the ER. Just because you get more critical procedures? That's stupid. The expertise comes with seeing the cases that shouldn't go South then ends up going South. Not the ones that are already south. Fast track nightmares are what's valuable in ER.

Your right. But I think it depends on the person as well as the facility in which they work. There are many variables with experience. Residencies are structured and somewhat standardized. Its why many solo gigs are offered to experienced EM PAs (>5 yrs) AND residency grads--and yes, just out of residency.

 

With all that said, I still don't think a residency requirement for DMS would be smart. Just too many hoops to jump through at that point. I think 3yrs experience would be perfect for a DMS requirement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also agree. No matter how it's presented, 3-5yrs experience in Primary care with actual patients is just as valuable as a residency. That's my thought. No residency should be required with this level of experience. However, a PA-C with less experience than that can be made to do a residency to obtain the DMS. I think that's fair.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to the Physician Assistant Forum! This website uses cookies to ensure you get the best experience on our website. Learn More