Attn Residency grads: Credit at LC towards DMSc

[True Anomaly]

Thanks for the info E- not sure how much I'd spring for this, but I'd definitely fall into this category

[EMEDPA]

my understanding is that no clinicals= lower tuition.....don't know how much less....

[mikespa12]

 

Same tuition ~24k. 1 year program. 

I called and asked. If you have done a residency program, you will still enroll in the practicum courses but will not be required to log clinical hours or submit evaluations from attending physician. You will take a "credit by exam". So in general it does not make a difference if you done a residency or not. Same tuition, just less hassle of not having to submit hours. 

If they lowered the tuition to maybe ~18k it'll be more interesting. 

On 5/23/2017 at 5:02 PM, EMEDPA said:

my understanding is that no clinicals= lower tuition.....don't know how much less....

 

[EMEDPA]

4 hours ago, mikespa12 said:

 

Same tuition ~24k. 1 year program. 

I called and asked. If you have done a residency program, you will still enroll in the practicum courses but will not be required to log clinical hours or submit evaluations from attending physician. You will take a "credit by exam". So in general it does not make a difference if you done a residency or not. Same tuition, just less hassle of not having to submit hours. 

If they lowered the tuition to maybe ~18k it'll be more interesting. 

 

ok, thanks for the update. my understanding was that folks who have already done the residency have a much easier time getting through the program while working full time. 

[mikespa12]

3 hours ago, EMEDPA said:

ok, thanks for the update. my understanding was that folks who have already done the residency have a much easier time getting through the program while working full time. 

I'm not sure it'll be "easier". The only diff is that you don't have to log in practicum hours and get supervisor to sign off the hours.

 

They really should have just taken the practicum part off the curriculum for past resident pas. That would save significant amount and really attract residents but I do understand they have to make money somewhere.

[mooredc]

I am very interested in this program. The dean of health sciences at my school (a god of PA education in my opinion haha) is on faculty for the DMSc and speaks very highly of Lynchburg's PA Program. It will def be on my radar after graduating. 

[MedicinePower]

How and why is the DMSc program better than MCPHS's DScPA? The latter's seems to be quicker and cheaper.

[ProSpectre]

8 minutes ago, MedicinePower said:

How and why is the DMSc program better than MCPHS's DScPA? The latter's seems to be quicker and cheaper.

If you want a doctorate just to get a doctorate, then quicker and cheaper may be better.  If you look at the curriculum though, it has absolutely no clinical medicine coursework, and honestly looks like a money grab degree; besides that, the title (Doctorate of Physician Assistant Studies) is godawful. 

At least with the Lynchburg program, there are some courses that would be clinically relevant as well as some courses that would be helpful if you wanted to go into healthcare management or academia, along with a requirement for a clinical practicum (which they call "PA fellowship", but can also be fulfilled through one of the existing PA residencies). 

 

I still think the LMU DMS curriculum has the strongest showing in the medical sciences and the largest likelihood of teaching you clinically relevant material that could add to your practice; I think Lynchburg's program has one up on them in allowing a residency to fulfill some of the degree requirements though, and I hope this becomes more common as doctorates for PAs become more established. 

[kidpresentable]

Not sure how I missed this last year, but it’s a real game-changer. Something about adding one master’s (like MPH) on top of another never really sat well with me, even though concerns about degree creep have made a permanent residence in the back of my mind... Hopefully you’ll be on the faculty for awhile still, E

[camoman1234]

12 hours ago, MedicinePower said:

How and why is the DMSc program better than MCPHS's DScPA? The latter's seems to be quicker and cheaper.

I would never go to this program due to the horrible name. What does a doctorate in PA studies even freaking mean? That is so stupid and I find it embarrassing to our profession. If I saw that degree on a CV I would just laugh and not even consider that type of degree in my hiring. 

[lostzebra]

Maybe PAs just need to do a better job with marketing themselves? When I was researching NPs and PAs, I found that on average a NP doctorate is the same number of credits as a master's in PA studies. This means a NP master's degree is half the number of credits as a PA master's. So to me, a master's degree in PA studies should already be equivalent to a NP doctorate. Maybe the profession just needs to showcase this equivalency a little more instead of pushing in the doctorate direction? 

[EMEDPA]

26 minutes ago, lostzebra said:

Maybe PAs just need to do a better job with marketing themselves? When I was researching NPs and PAs, I found that on average a NP doctorate is the same number of credits as a master's in PA studies. This means a NP master's degree is half the number of credits as a PA master's. So to me, a master's degree in PA studies should already be equivalent to a NP doctorate. Maybe the profession just needs to showcase this equivalency a little more instead of pushing in the doctorate direction? 

that ship has already sailed. the argument that we should get a doctorate for 100 credits of graduate work is valid, but currently ebtry-level doctorates for PAs have not been approved by ARC-PA. with regards to marketing, we need a name/title change first. going with assistant is a non-starter to someone who knows nothing about us. do you want to see an assistant or a practitioner for anything? Plumbing assistant or plumbing practitioner?

[sas5814]

On 5/22/2017 at 12:57 PM, Boatswain2PA said:

You are probably right, but I still hold SOME hope that the DNP will crash & burn, allowing us to remain Masters level.

Sorry Boats but the DNP is never going to die. Nurses have a political machine and nurses in leadership everywhere...and their numbers are growing. It is a sad reality but reality just the same.

People get advanced degree for a lot of reasons. Mine was stupidly simple...I was doing a lot of legislative work and legislators LOVE a title. It gave me some gravitas with them when talking data. Suckers.....

So this is just one more pathway for those interested. It's an easy metric. If it interests you and the time and money is worth it to you...participate. If you think it is a waste of time and money...don't. Easy peasy....

[PACali]

3 hours ago, lostzebra said:

Maybe PAs just need to do a better job with marketing themselves? When I was researching NPs and PAs, I found that on average a NP doctorate is the same number of credits as a master's in PA studies. This means a NP master's degree is half the number of credits as a PA master's. So to me, a master's degree in PA studies should already be equivalent to a NP doctorate. Maybe the profession just needs to showcase this equivalency a little more instead of pushing in the doctorate direction? 

AAPA has been doing this for many years but it is hard to market an assistant is better than a "Doctoral" trained nurse practitioner. 

[Hope2PA]

4 hours ago, lostzebra said:

Maybe PAs just need to do a better job with marketing themselves? When I was researching NPs and PAs, I found that on average a NP doctorate is the same number of credits as a master's in PA studies. This means a NP master's degree is half the number of credits as a PA master's. So to me, a master's degree in PA studies should already be equivalent to a NP doctorate. Maybe the profession just needs to showcase this equivalency a little more instead of pushing in the doctorate direction? 

I didn't know there were any with same credit hours.  The doctorate NP programs I've seen are actually less than masters PA by at least 20 credit hours.  NP masters average 50 with doctorate in the 70's.  I haven't found a masters PA under 100. 

[ProSpectre]

39 minutes ago, Hope2PA said:

I didn't know there were any with same credit hours.  The doctorate NP programs I've seen are actually less than masters PA by at least 20 credit hours.  NP masters average 50 with doctorate in the 70's.  I haven't found a masters PA under 100. 

Same here, at my school (which is a pretty highly ranked PA program attached to one of the largest academic medical centers in the US), the DNP is only about 78 credit hours and requires only 1000 clinical hours (400 of which are devoted to the doctorate project), while my PA program requires about 120 credit hours and we'll have well over 2000 clinical hours. 

It's the same for Emory University -- the post-BSN DNP degree is 74-83 credit hours and only 620-780 clinical hours (depending on the specific tract), while their PA program is 129 credit hours. 

This trend is the same at many of the well-respected schools that have both DNP and PA programs (including Duke, University of Washington, Baylor College of Medicine, Drexel University, etc). Plus I could only find one program out of those I listed above that requires any prior experience working as an RN before starting on the post-BSN DNP degree. 

[MedicinePower]

8 hours ago, camoman1234 said:

I would never go to this program due to the horrible name. What does a doctorate in PA studies even freaking mean? That is so stupid and I find it embarrassing to our profession. If I saw that degree on a CV I would just laugh and not even consider that type of degree in my hiring. 

The name is awful but I think it had to do with the school requiring the title to be PA-specific. I wonder if it could just be shortened to "DSc" (Doctor of Science). You'd then be John Doe, PA-C, DSc

[MedicinePower]

15 hours ago, ProSpectre said:

If you want a doctorate just to get a doctorate, then quicker and cheaper may be better.  If you look at the curriculum though, it has absolutely no clinical medicine coursework, and honestly looks like a money grab degree; besides that, the title (Doctorate of Physician Assistant Studies) is godawful. 

At least with the Lynchburg program, there are some courses that would be clinically relevant as well as some courses that would be helpful if you wanted to go into healthcare management or academia, along with a requirement for a clinical practicum (which they call "PA fellowship", but can also be fulfilled through one of the existing PA residencies). 

 

I still think the LMU DMS curriculum has the strongest showing in the medical sciences and the largest likelihood of teaching you clinically relevant material that could add to your practice; I think Lynchburg's program has one up on them in allowing a residency to fulfill some of the degree requirements though, and I hope this becomes more common as doctorates for PAs become more established. 

What benefit is there to the additional clinical training the LMU program requires if it doesn't bridge us to MD-level licensure? I'm unsure what the benefit is especially for a residency-trained and seasoned PA. The MCPHS program seems to be the quickest and most inexpensive pathway toward a doctorate while not insisting it is MD-equivalent. The post nominals "DSc" (doctor of science) is a recognized academic degree while DMSc (doctor of medical science) can be confusing to even seasoned academics. I understand the proposed state law allowing DMSc-level PAs to practice at the physician level was defeated which is why I am hesitant to embark on a program which leads to a degree that won't be useful.

[ProSpectre]

48 minutes ago, MedicinePower said:

What benefit is there to the additional clinical training the LMU program requires if it doesn't bridge us to MD-level licensure? I'm unsure what the benefit is especially for a residency-trained and seasoned PA. The MCPHS program seems to be the quickest and most inexpensive pathway toward a doctorate while not insisting it is MD-equivalent. The post nominals "DSc" (doctor of science) is a recognized academic degree while DMSc (doctor of medical science) can be confusing to even seasoned academics. I understand the proposed state law allowing DMSc-level PAs to practice at the physician level was defeated which is why I am hesitant to embark on a program which leads to a degree that won't be useful.

None of the current doctorates for PAs are an MD equivalent, and none claim that they are. Like I said, if you want a doctorate only for the legitimacy of having a doctorate, then go for the shortest, cheapest route (but what is a Doctorate in PA studies, anyway?). If you want to learn new information in a structured manner that you can add to your clinical toolbox to be a better practitioner (as well as the benefits of being able to teach, earn higher wages for government positions, etc), then go for a program that includes advanced coursework in the medical sciences (like LMU). If you want to teach or go into administration, I think Lynchburg is a solid balance that appears much stronger than the MCPHS curriculum. If you want a degree that is an MD equivalent or that grants increased scope of practice, then go to the LECOM PA-DO bridge. 

It all comes down to what you are doing a doctorate for. I personally don't want a doctorate that is nothing more than a piece of paper that allows me to put "Dr." in front of my name; that is one benefit, but shouldn't be all you get out of it. If I am embarking on an educational pathway leading to a doctorate, I want to be challenged and taught medical science coursework that I didn't cover in PA school; the LMU curriculum fits the bill. It does not increase scope of practice and is not an MD equivalent, so many on this forum think that means it's worthless; I heartily disagree, but whether it is worth the actual tuition cost, that's a personal choice. After all, we are supposed to be lifelong learners, and taking additional medical science coursework that gives you a greater understanding of medicine should be the primary goal of a clinical doctorate. 

For the record, I am a bigger fan of the residency model than simply getting a doctorate; I think residencies should be expanded and accredited. However, doctorates bring legitimacy for the individual and for our profession, and I think that is where the profession will eventually go anyway. I just hate to see anemic doctorates that are largely fluff (which just reminds me of the DNP trend). 

[Hope2PA]

2 hours ago, ProSpectre said:

Same here, at my school (which is a pretty highly ranked PA program attached to one of the largest academic medical centers in the US), the DNP is only about 78 credit hours and requires only 1000 clinical hours (400 of which are devoted to the doctorate project), while my PA program requires about 120 credit hours and we'll have well over 2000 clinical hours. 

It's the same for Emory University -- the post-BSN DNP degree is 74-83 credit hours and only 620-780 clinical hours (depending on the specific tract), while their PA program is 129 credit hours. 

This trend is the same at many of the well-respected schools that have both DNP and PA programs (including Duke, University of Washington, Baylor College of Medicine, Drexel University, etc). Plus I could only find one program out of those I listed above that requires any prior experience working as an RN before starting on the post-BSN DNP degree. 

Great info! I looked up the Emory and Duke programs, your right, NP can be direct entry one year to masters, PA applicants are required to have at least 2000 direct patient care at Emory and 1000 at Duke.  One of them mentioned the average PA student had over 10,000 hours.  Kind of goes against what I always hear from NP's on saying they don't need as much graduate work because they have so much more experience. This information really needs to be shared with politicians when proposing  OTP  especially in states that give NP independent practice.  In articles education  of NP always says 3 years and PA 2 years.  Somehow the fact of 3 years if part-time with less than half education and clinical experience of PA's. 

[MedicinePower]

6 hours ago, ProSpectre said:

None of the current doctorates for PAs are an MD equivalent, and none claim that they are. Like I said, if you want a doctorate only for the legitimacy of having a doctorate, then go for the shortest, cheapest route (but what is a Doctorate in PA studies, anyway?). If you want to learn new information in a structured manner that you can add to your clinical toolbox to be a better practitioner (as well as the benefits of being able to teach, earn higher wages for government positions, etc), then go for a program that includes advanced coursework in the medical sciences (like LMU). If you want to teach or go into administration, I think Lynchburg is a solid balance that appears much stronger than the MCPHS curriculum. If you want a degree that is an MD equivalent or that grants increased scope of practice, then go to the LECOM PA-DO bridge. 

It all comes down to what you are doing a doctorate for. I personally don't want a doctorate that is nothing more than a piece of paper that allows me to put "Dr." in front of my name; that is one benefit, but shouldn't be all you get out of it. If I am embarking on an educational pathway leading to a doctorate, I want to be challenged and taught medical science coursework that I didn't cover in PA school; the LMU curriculum fits the bill. It does not increase scope of practice and is not an MD equivalent, so many on this forum think that means it's worthless; I heartily disagree, but whether it is worth the actual tuition cost, that's a personal choice. After all, we are supposed to be lifelong learners, and taking additional medical science coursework that gives you a greater understanding of medicine should be the primary goal of a clinical doctorate. 

For the record, I am a bigger fan of the residency model than simply getting a doctorate; I think residencies should be expanded and accredited. However, doctorates bring legitimacy for the individual and for our profession, and I think that is where the profession will eventually go anyway. I just hate to see anemic doctorates that are largely fluff (which just reminds me of the DNP trend). 

This doesn't answer my basic question: what does the DMSc degree permit a PA to do that they couldn't do before? What benefit is the additional didactic and clinical training to a seasoned PA? What is the benefit of the additional debt a DMSc student will incur?

 

FYI, the MCPHS degree isn't "Doctorate in PA studies" but rather "Doctor of Science in PA Studies". I hope it can simply be shortened to Doctor of Science (DSc).

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

40 minutes ago, MedicinePower said:

This doesn't answer my basic question: what does the DMSc degree permit a PA to do that they couldn't do before? What benefit is the additional didactic and clinical training to a seasoned PA? What is the benefit of the additional debt a DMSc student will incur?

 

FYI, the MCPHS degree isn't "Doctorate in PA studies" but rather "Doctor of Science in PA Studies". I hope it can simply be shortened to Doctor of Science (DSc).

Further training in education (if one chooses the education track). Academic appointments that require doctorate for tenure tracks. Program director positions. Training in disaster medicine and global heath. Healthcare systems training to be more competitive for admin positions within hospital systems that previously only considered MDs and DNPs. Stronger clinical training in their chosen field through clinical track to allow broader scope of practice, and while residency does this as well, this way you get more than a certificate out of it.

[PACali]

I think do a PA residency + Lynchburg DMS program is the better way to go than LMU. I think a good PA residency is better than the LMU program and cheaper too. After that do the Lynchburg DMS. 

[EMEDPA]

7 hours ago, PACali said:

I think do a PA residency + Lynchburg DMS program is the better way to go than LMU. I think a good PA residency is better than the LMU program and cheaper too. After that do the Lynchburg DMS. 

agreed. get paid to learn!

[MedicinePower]

9 hours ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

Further training in education (if one chooses the education track). Academic appointments that require doctorate for tenure tracks. Program director positions. Training in disaster medicine and global heath. Healthcare systems training to be more competitive for admin positions within hospital systems that previously only considered MDs and DNPs. Stronger clinical training in their chosen field through clinical track to allow broader scope of practice, and while residency does this as well, this way you get more than a certificate out of it.

I'm still not seeing the benefit of the LMU degree for the reasons you stated and it takes longer and is more expensive than the MCPHS Doctor of Science. Additional didactic and clinical training should only occur if our license and scope of training were to be expanded.