Jump to content

LECOM APAP


Recommended Posts

Hi everyone

 

Current PA student here looking at LECOM's bridge program.  I've talked to a current student there who told me that many of the bridge program students in the current class regret their decision to go this route.  I know there's a couple alumni from the program on these forums, just wondering if there's anyone else who has some experience/opinion on the program.  Thank you!

 

Josh

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 PA should not be a stepping stone into medical school...

Why not? I would estimate that 10% of my PA school classmates had serious plans to work a few years and then go to medical school. Rather than objecting to their use of the PA as a stepping stone to success in Medical school, why not rethink our own profession's plans to achieve independent practice in all fifty states. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seems like a hell of a financial burden to place on yourself. Last PA student I had told me his loan debt was gonna be 250K after graduating from Touro.

 

I dont care if you want to become a doc, it's your time and money.

In cost accounting, there is a phrase called "relevant cost." A relevant cost is a cost which differs between two alternatives. Sunk costs or costs already spent prior to the decision making point, are not relevant costs. So what does this have to do with the statement by jwells78. The poster is making a comparison between medical school and PA school but he includes sunk costs which are not relevant. In other words, (assuming) to go to PA school one requires a Bachelors degree and to go to Medical school, one still needs a Bachelors degree. At the point of deciding to go the PA school or medical school, the cost of the four year degree has already sunk and it isn't relevant. Thus, assume  a year of medical education is $50k (PA or MD). It is roughly 100K for PA and 200K for MD. At the point of graduation from undergraduate, the difference between alternatives in $150K. If one considers that the plan is PA+MD vs MD, then the costs are $250K vs $200K. So the difference is $50K; not so significant. Someone might want to consider medicine without the attending risks of MD program (not getting residency or matching to boring FP)  vs safer evaluation of PA school while trying on medicine for a career. The cost difference in my mythical analysis isn't that great but gives the PA student less risk. As I keep saying though, no undergraduate should go to PA school. Medical school should be the first choice. NP school should be the second. Caribbean is third choice.  The aforementioned should hold unless and until PAs get independent practice in all fifty states. (fyi, I have left out many other things here such as opportunity costs which would make this more involved. I kept it to actual cash outlays)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not a $50k difference. its not even close to a $50k difference. You point relies on not counting compounded interest, opportunity costs, living expenses or the fact that PA school is generally less expensive on a yearly basis then med school. When you factor in the above it's conservative to estimate that Med school is going to run $400k or more than a PA education unless you can pay for school up front or live super cheap in the interim.

 

Doc's obviously come out ahead over time, but the break even point probably approaches 7-10 years after residency is complete, depending on the field you enter.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tuition seems fairly comparable in my brief foray of evaluating cost. Cost of living does become an issue, but I suspect that most PAs going back would have some sort of arrangement (be it financial, from a spouse, or otherwise) to help offset some cost. The hardest part for me to consider swallowing was lost income, lost retirement, and lost time. I would be wholly sold to medicine at that point and I am not certain that I am the type of person that could do that. If there were a less time consuming path, less financially disadvantageous path, I would consider it. For now, I am staying put and enjoying my 30's, soon to be debt free, with a job that puts me in the top 10-20% of income earners. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a classmate from PA school who is a first year student.  She initally chose the traditional 4 year route and then switched over to the "bridge" program.  I just checked in with her last week for an update and she had no complaints.  Stating she feels to have a deeper understanding now.  

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

I have a classmate from PA school who is a first year student.  She initally chose the traditional 4 year route and then switched over to the "bridge" program.  I just checked in with her last week for an update and she had no complaints.  Stating she feels to have a deeper understanding now.

the question no one can answer though is does a deeper understanding of metabolic pathways, embryology, etc make you a better provider outside of intensive/research type cutting edge positions in medicine? is a brand new fp doc better than a 30 year FP PA? over time does the pa learn what they need and the docs forget what they don't? I would be the first to admit that the physician residency is a huge distinction vs a PA, but it has seemed to me for years that a new md before residency is really not all that different than a bright new PA with significant prior HCE.

  • Upvote 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why not? I would estimate that 10% of my PA school classmates had serious plans to work a few years and then go to medical school. Rather than objecting to their use of the PA as a stepping stone to success in Medical school, why not rethink our own profession's plans to achieve independent practice in all fifty states. 

If you hate your profession so much, why don't you, yourself, go back to medical school?

 

What I'm trying to understand is OP's logic behind going back to medical school when he HASN'T EVEN BEGUN PRACTICING AS A PA, thus it seems that he is using PA school as an opportunity to get into medical school. Sure, I know there are many PAs who go back to medical school, but they often have reasons such as not having enough autonomy, knowledge, etc. But there are also many PAs who are happy with their decision to become a PA. 

 

Also, what does this say about the profession if everyone went and hopped onto the medical school boat? The MPAS is not a MMS or post-bac degree...

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

RE: Horizen

 

Sunk costs aside, I was referring more to the total cost of PA school + Bridge to Doc.

 

Certainly if one intends to be a Doc from the start, I see it as a foolish move to pay for PA school when you could just go straight to medical school.

 

Since the OP is already a PA student, that point is moot. People have a change of heart, as is evidenced by the countless threads on here about PA to MD; understandable.

 

I looked at this myself several times over the past 10 years (PA-MD), and for me- it always came down to certain criteria that were too much an obstacle to ignore, in order of precedence:

 

1. More time away from family (when PA school alone was almost the demise of my marriage)

2. More debt to pay off for a longer period with fewer years of time on the backend that I actually WANT to be working

 

But, for a younger person who has different variables in play, who knows.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

the question no one can answer though is does a deeper understanding of metabolic pathways, embryology, etc make you a better provider outside of intensive/research type cutting edge positions in medicine? is a brand new fp doc better than a 30 year FP PA? over time does the pa learn what they need and the docs forget what they don't? I would be the first to admit that the physician residency is a huge distinction vs a PA, but it has seemed to me for years that a new md before residency is really not all that different than a bright new PA with significant prior HCE.

Agreed.  I'm excited to learn more from her as she finishes. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Does anyone have any information about APAP specific match lists over the past few years?

 

Has anyone from the program matched into more competitive specialties like Emergency Med, or surgical specialties like Gen Surg or Orthopedics, etc...

 

Does the 3 year pathway have a negative effect on your application when you apply to these residencies? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

I've seen these match lists before, they are general match lists for all 3 campuses and don't specify APAP matches, which is what I was asking for. 

1/2 of apap students are required to match primary care, the rest can apply to anything. I think I recall some folks from the first class matching em and ortho, but check with primadonna, she was in the first class.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

PA is not and never should be a path to MD!!

 

You want to be a doc - go to medical school

 

(Just my own opinion on this one)

 

 

BUT if you want to be a PA, then crave more knowledge and return to MD/DO school, more power to you. (Had they had a better bridge program I would have likely done this younger in life, but to old and comfy now)

 

 

This is very easy to make sure it does not happen. PA - - >MD/DO programs just put a # of years of work experience requirement.

 

If you have to work 3-5 years as a PA for consideration for MD/DO school, on top of 2-3 years of PA school - well that is atleast 5 years, and possibly as long as 8 just to get into school....... not the fast route by any measure...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really understand LECOM APAP as a bridge. It essentially removes the MCAT and puts you in to an accelerated 3 year med school program. There are just seats for us there. We are great med school candidates, students, and likely match very well. They get a great deal out of us for allowing no MCAT. While that is not trivial, it is not a bridge or special pathway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

I don't really understand LECOM APAP as a bridge. It essentially removes the MCAT and puts you in to an accelerated 3 year med school program. There are just seats for us there. We are great med school candidates, students, and likely match very well. They get a great deal out of us for allowing no MCAT. While that is not trivial, it is not a bridge or special pathway.

they go easy on the prereqs too. I have never taken ochem and was told 1 online 3 unit intro to concepts in ochem course without lab would fulfill the prereq.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know I will take heat for this but I find it troubling that PAs want to get a free pass on requirements to enter medical school. Organic chemistry has value to the Physician. Asking to be excused from MCAT and Ochem for med school is like an engineering student asking to be excused from the SAT, two years of calculus and physics. Essentially, LECOMM has implemented affirmative action for a new created protected class, the physician assistant. If a PA can't meet the requisites for admission to any medical school, I wonder if it is fair to lower standards for PAs. if we want respect, we should earn it. Study for the MCAT and take organic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I usually don't engage in arguments on topics like this, because they usually don't lead anywhere since most people's minds tend to be firmly made up about these notions. And I don't want to give you heat, but point out some facts that you are missing. The most important one being that PAs are already practicing medicine! In many areas like primary care, urgent care, hospital medicine, etc... at almost the same capacity as their physician colleagues.

The second important point is that practicing PAs have already passed an actual medical board exam, which allows them to get licensed by state MD/DO boards and practice medicine to begin with! So they have also shown that they can pass medical boards, which is the purpose of the MCAT, to check if you have the aptitude to pass standardized board exams.

Do pre-requisite courses have value? sure. Some of the more basic courses like general chemistry tend to be more practical, which is probably why Organic chemistry comprises such a small percentage on the MCAT.

Allot of what you are referring to is applicable to college kids who want to go to medical school, or anyone with no significant medical background, and things like Organic chemistry and the MCAT are good tools to determine if they have what it takes. Most of it is overkill, because there aren't enough medical school seats to accommodate every capable candidate. This is ironic since everyone is always complaining about a big physician shortage! 

They are not however applicable to someone who has already been through the grueling process of PA school and proven themselves by demonstrating intellect and stamina, considering the rapid pace of PA training, and demonstrated the ability to competently practice medicine. 

 

When you are interviewing a job candidate with years of experience, you don't evaluate them the same as you would an applicant at the entry level.       

   

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to the Physician Assistant Forum! This website uses cookies to ensure you get the best experience on our website. Learn More