navyflyPAC Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Hello. I posted this question on a different forum and hadn't heard much. Just maybe a visibility thing. I was wondering what specialties (or fields) you need to complete a residency in, so that you can work or be hired. I will be a new grad following a year of rotations next year. Thus far, throughout my PA education, no one has addressed residencies or a need for them. I'm just curious what your take is on this. I'm an older student (former breadwinner of the family), and as you can imagine, my couple years off from the workforce has already put our family life in a pinch. I can't imagine having to do a year or more of residency with low-no compensation after I graduate. So, can anyone let me know what my options are professionally without a residency? Or are there residencies that pay, and what is an average income during a paid residency? Lengths of residencies? Thanks so much for any advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navyflyPAC Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Hello. I posted this question on a different forum and hadn't heard much. Just maybe a visibility thing. I was wondering what specialties (or fields) you need to complete a residency in, so that you can work or be hired. I will be a new grad following a year of rotations next year. Thus far, throughout my PA education, no one has addressed residencies or a need for them. I'm just curious what your take is on this. I'm an older student (former breadwinner of the family), and as you can imagine, my couple years off from the workforce has already put our family life in a pinch. I can't imagine having to do a year or more of residency with low-no compensation after I graduate. So, can anyone let me know what my options are professionally without a residency? Or are there residencies that pay, and what is an average income during a paid residency? Lengths of residencies? Thanks so much for any advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2012 residencies are not required in any field. they will start you higher up the food chain in any specialty with better jobs from day 1, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2012 residencies are not required in any field. they will start you higher up the food chain in any specialty with better jobs from day 1, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I am currently doing a fellowship as a new grad, and very glad I am. I am in a supportive environment as I make that transition from school to provider, and I learn a ton every day. I am still in a teaching environment, I just have a lot more responsibility and hands-on experience than I got as a student. Theoretically, there are jobs in every field that do not require residencies, but if there is a 2 year work experience requirement, you are not really ready to apply for that job. A lot of people will hire new grads, but I wanted to find a position who had worked with a new grad PA before... From what I have seen, the further away from a metro area, the more likely new grads are to be hired, because there are less providers to be had in general. I am a member of my state board and AAPA, and somehow, have gotten on plenty of email lists of available jobs. If you do not want to do a residency, you do not have to. There are jobs out there in most specialties for new grads that do not require them. Check out http://www.appap.org/ for availability, length and income of residencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I am currently doing a fellowship as a new grad, and very glad I am. I am in a supportive environment as I make that transition from school to provider, and I learn a ton every day. I am still in a teaching environment, I just have a lot more responsibility and hands-on experience than I got as a student. Theoretically, there are jobs in every field that do not require residencies, but if there is a 2 year work experience requirement, you are not really ready to apply for that job. A lot of people will hire new grads, but I wanted to find a position who had worked with a new grad PA before... From what I have seen, the further away from a metro area, the more likely new grads are to be hired, because there are less providers to be had in general. I am a member of my state board and AAPA, and somehow, have gotten on plenty of email lists of available jobs. If you do not want to do a residency, you do not have to. There are jobs out there in most specialties for new grads that do not require them. Check out http://www.appap.org/ for availability, length and income of residencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonadometrics Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 1. This is a place where opinions are offered so when EMED says a residency will improve career prospects, we should recognize that for what it is; an opinion. The last copy of the AAPA salary survey has no data that compares salaries for residency graduates versus PA program graduates. Even if they did have data, the sample size of residency graduates would be so small as to render it unreliable. Be careful in drawing conclusions from the anecdotal experiences of others. 2. PAs should decline residency opportunities until they result in a terminal clinical doctorate with independent practice rights and the use of the doctor title. Some of you may find that objectionable but a residency will essentially place you at the level of someone who finished med school and internship year. I would not give up time and money to have no career benefit except the possibility of starting at a undetermined higher salary. We should wait until a real "MD Bridge" is available or wait until a terminal doctorate is awarded for residency with independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonadometrics Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 1. This is a place where opinions are offered so when EMED says a residency will improve career prospects, we should recognize that for what it is; an opinion. The last copy of the AAPA salary survey has no data that compares salaries for residency graduates versus PA program graduates. Even if they did have data, the sample size of residency graduates would be so small as to render it unreliable. Be careful in drawing conclusions from the anecdotal experiences of others. 2. PAs should decline residency opportunities until they result in a terminal clinical doctorate with independent practice rights and the use of the doctor title. Some of you may find that objectionable but a residency will essentially place you at the level of someone who finished med school and internship year. I would not give up time and money to have no career benefit except the possibility of starting at a undetermined higher salary. We should wait until a real "MD Bridge" is available or wait until a terminal doctorate is awarded for residency with independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2012 A residency does give you a procedure log which allows you to get credentialed for numerous procedures beyond the range of new grads. I am still thinking about doing an em residency years out of school for just this reason. a local facility is opening one and they may hire me as full time residency staff( at full time pay), put me through an abbreviated residency based on my perceived areas of need and then have me stay on as staff. it's the off service rotations I really want to do. I could still use a month or 2 of icu putting in lots of lines, doing paracentesis, thoracentesis, etc, a month of anesthesiology, a month on the L+D service delivering babies, a month doing u/s, etc in em at least the best jobs go to folks with residencies or lots of prior experience. there are jobs posted in em that say "completion of an em residency and/or 10 yrs of experience working in em. " having more skills only makes you more marketable, both in the u.s. and overseas. I recently saw a critical care position overseas looking for a pa but it specified " a high level of proficiency with ventilators". can I use a vent for basic functions ? sure. but "high level of proficiency? " nope. after a residency I would hopefully have that comfort level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2012 A residency does give you a procedure log which allows you to get credentialed for numerous procedures beyond the range of new grads. I am still thinking about doing an em residency years out of school for just this reason. a local facility is opening one and they may hire me as full time residency staff( at full time pay), put me through an abbreviated residency based on my perceived areas of need and then have me stay on as staff. it's the off service rotations I really want to do. I could still use a month or 2 of icu putting in lots of lines, doing paracentesis, thoracentesis, etc, a month of anesthesiology, a month on the L+D service delivering babies, a month doing u/s, etc in em at least the best jobs go to folks with residencies or lots of prior experience. there are jobs posted in em that say "completion of an em residency and/or 10 yrs of experience working in em. " having more skills only makes you more marketable, both in the u.s. and overseas. I recently saw a critical care position overseas looking for a pa but it specified " a high level of proficiency with ventilators". can I use a vent for basic functions ? sure. but "high level of proficiency? " nope. after a residency I would hopefully have that comfort level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 1. This is a place where opinions are offered so when EMED says a residency will improve career prospects, we should recognize that for what it is; an opinion. The last copy of the AAPA salary survey has no data that compares salaries for residency graduates versus PA program graduates. Even if they did have data, the sample size of residency graduates would be so small as to render it unreliable. Be careful in drawing conclusions from the anecdotal experiences of others. 2. PAs should decline residency opportunities until they result in a terminal clinical doctorate with independent practice rights and the use of the doctor title. Some of you may find that objectionable but a residency will essentially place you at the level of someone who finished med school and internship year. I would not give up time and money to have no career benefit except the possibility of starting at a undetermined higher salary. We should wait until a real "MD Bridge" is available or wait until a terminal doctorate is awarded for residency with independence. I disagree. Disclaimer, I am a residency grad so that biases my opinion. Furthermore I did not notice EMEDPA say anything about salary. Residency experience will certainly provide you exposure to a scope and depth in the particular specialty that you may not find in a non residency job. These programs tend to have a structure and support system that enable intense training with the right balance of autonomy and oversight, especially for a new grad looking to break into the ranks of a field which would usually require experience to get into. I find it diasappointing that you would suggest PAs decline residency positions based on the degree awarded or titles. Understanding the benefits of postgrad training may better inform your opinion. Residency is NOT about degrees. It is not even about salary. It is firmly based in the foundations of PA history- clinical competence. An opportunity for generalist PAs to undergo focused specialty training not offered in our basic PA education. Residency PAs gain competence, basic science knowledge, time management skills, learn how to work in specialty teams, interact with relevant consultants, perform a significant number of procedures that might otherwise take YEARS to accumulate, and get exposed to the zebras that we may not see in other bread-and-butter practice settings. To the OP, IMO the biggest barrier you face is your personal situation. As someone with a wife and kids now, I would have found it very difficult to complete my residency if I hadn't been single at the time. It is doable, but it would have to be done with a good support system from your family to get through the busy times. Each program is different and some may have less intense call schedules, so I would start with looking at the programs you like and see what the time committments are. The pay is less, as you know, but it is a sacrifice which pays off dividends in your clinical future. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 1. This is a place where opinions are offered so when EMED says a residency will improve career prospects, we should recognize that for what it is; an opinion. The last copy of the AAPA salary survey has no data that compares salaries for residency graduates versus PA program graduates. Even if they did have data, the sample size of residency graduates would be so small as to render it unreliable. Be careful in drawing conclusions from the anecdotal experiences of others. 2. PAs should decline residency opportunities until they result in a terminal clinical doctorate with independent practice rights and the use of the doctor title. Some of you may find that objectionable but a residency will essentially place you at the level of someone who finished med school and internship year. I would not give up time and money to have no career benefit except the possibility of starting at a undetermined higher salary. We should wait until a real "MD Bridge" is available or wait until a terminal doctorate is awarded for residency with independence. I disagree. Disclaimer, I am a residency grad so that biases my opinion. Furthermore I did not notice EMEDPA say anything about salary. Residency experience will certainly provide you exposure to a scope and depth in the particular specialty that you may not find in a non residency job. These programs tend to have a structure and support system that enable intense training with the right balance of autonomy and oversight, especially for a new grad looking to break into the ranks of a field which would usually require experience to get into. I find it diasappointing that you would suggest PAs decline residency positions based on the degree awarded or titles. Understanding the benefits of postgrad training may better inform your opinion. Residency is NOT about degrees. It is not even about salary. It is firmly based in the foundations of PA history- clinical competence. An opportunity for generalist PAs to undergo focused specialty training not offered in our basic PA education. Residency PAs gain competence, basic science knowledge, time management skills, learn how to work in specialty teams, interact with relevant consultants, perform a significant number of procedures that might otherwise take YEARS to accumulate, and get exposed to the zebras that we may not see in other bread-and-butter practice settings. To the OP, IMO the biggest barrier you face is your personal situation. As someone with a wife and kids now, I would have found it very difficult to complete my residency if I hadn't been single at the time. It is doable, but it would have to be done with a good support system from your family to get through the busy times. Each program is different and some may have less intense call schedules, so I would start with looking at the programs you like and see what the time committments are. The pay is less, as you know, but it is a sacrifice which pays off dividends in your clinical future. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2012 agree that it would be tough with a family. I am only considering it because it is very close to my house and they would pay me a regular wage to get training that could improve my utility at future jobs/clinical settings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2012 agree that it would be tough with a family. I am only considering it because it is very close to my house and they would pay me a regular wage to get training that could improve my utility at future jobs/clinical settings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ek3550 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Most PA programs are 24 months long, but some offer longer clinical training and are close to 3 years long. Could you say that these programs give you the benefits of a residency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ek3550 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Most PA programs are 24 months long, but some offer longer clinical training and are close to 3 years long. Could you say that these programs give you the benefits of a residency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 26, 2012 Moderator Share Posted January 26, 2012 most pa programs are 24 months long, but some offer longer clinical training and are close to 3 years long. Could you say that these programs give you the benefits of a residency? nope. They are still generalist programs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 26, 2012 Moderator Share Posted January 26, 2012 most pa programs are 24 months long, but some offer longer clinical training and are close to 3 years long. Could you say that these programs give you the benefits of a residency? nope. They are still generalist programs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonadometrics Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I agree that a residency increases knowledge and skills. PA residents finish with better capabilities than new PA graduates. No arguments there. However, when Andersonpa says "the foundations of PA history- clinical competence", I have to ask, "shouldn't PAs ask for and expect more." If every PA graduate completed a residency and IF every PA graduate could attain the same COMPETENCE as a Medical Doctor at the end of PGY-1 (internship year), PAs would still be regarded as inferior by many patients and Physicians and insurers and credentialing boards. The PA profession should not offer it's time and treasure without a compensatory reward of the enjoyment of being addressed as "Doctor" following residency and enjoyment of independence. Finally, if PA programs are going to 3 years full-time study and mandatory residency, then there is no daylight between medical student education and internship years with regard to training. Only the rewards differ. PAs would work the same time in school as medical student/resident but receive far fewer rewards. I suggest that we say "No" to residencies as they are being offered today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonadometrics Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I agree that a residency increases knowledge and skills. PA residents finish with better capabilities than new PA graduates. No arguments there. However, when Andersonpa says "the foundations of PA history- clinical competence", I have to ask, "shouldn't PAs ask for and expect more." If every PA graduate completed a residency and IF every PA graduate could attain the same COMPETENCE as a Medical Doctor at the end of PGY-1 (internship year), PAs would still be regarded as inferior by many patients and Physicians and insurers and credentialing boards. The PA profession should not offer it's time and treasure without a compensatory reward of the enjoyment of being addressed as "Doctor" following residency and enjoyment of independence. Finally, if PA programs are going to 3 years full-time study and mandatory residency, then there is no daylight between medical student education and internship years with regard to training. Only the rewards differ. PAs would work the same time in school as medical student/resident but receive far fewer rewards. I suggest that we say "No" to residencies as they are being offered today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 27, 2012 Moderator Share Posted January 27, 2012 . I suggest that we say "No" to residencies as they are being offered today. This is a place where opinions are offered so we should recognize that for what it is; an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 27, 2012 Moderator Share Posted January 27, 2012 . I suggest that we say "No" to residencies as they are being offered today. This is a place where opinions are offered so we should recognize that for what it is; an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beorp Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 If every PA graduate completed a residency and IF every PA graduate could attain the same COMPETENCE as a Medical Doctor at the end of PGY-1 (internship year), PAs would still be regarded as inferior by many patients and Physicians and insurers and credentialing boards. The PA profession should not offer it's time and treasure without a compensatory reward of the enjoyment of being addressed as "Doctor" following residency and enjoyment of independence. Even if were to happen, we still would not have gone to medical school. If you want to be a doctor, go to medical school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beorp Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 If every PA graduate completed a residency and IF every PA graduate could attain the same COMPETENCE as a Medical Doctor at the end of PGY-1 (internship year), PAs would still be regarded as inferior by many patients and Physicians and insurers and credentialing boards. The PA profession should not offer it's time and treasure without a compensatory reward of the enjoyment of being addressed as "Doctor" following residency and enjoyment of independence. Even if were to happen, we still would not have gone to medical school. If you want to be a doctor, go to medical school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I agree that a residency increases knowledge and skills. PA residents finish with better capabilities than new PA graduates. The better descriptor would be to say that they finish residency with more skill/competence than PAs who have been practicing for a similar amount of time. No arguments there. However, when Andersonpa says "the foundations of PA history- clinical competence", I have to ask, "shouldn't PAs ask for and expect more." And by "more", you mean- demand to be called "Doctor"? Why? Demand respect from patients? And when they see "Dr. PA" on you coat instead of "MD", will you demand those credentials as well, simply because you completed a residency that is 1/3-1/5 the time commitment of a physician residency, and has none of the graduated responsibility or independent practice that those programs have? If every PA graduate completed a residency and IF every PA graduate could attain the same COMPETENCE as a Medical Doctor at the end of PGY-1 (internship year), That’s a big assumption. PAs would still be regarded as inferior by many patients and Physicians and insurers and credentialing boards. The PA profession should not offer it's time and treasure without a compensatory reward of the enjoyment of being addressed as "Doctor" following residency and enjoyment of independence. Finally, if PA programs are going to 3 years full-time study and mandatory residency, then there is no daylight between medical student education and internship years with regard to training. I was not aware that 3 yr course of study was anywhere near the norm. Some programs are designed this way. The overwhelming majority of programs are still 2 yrs. But that is beside the point. Physician residency and PA residency are two different models, and as close as they may seem they are very different in the type of clinician they are training. Only the rewards differ. PAs would work the same time in school as medical student/resident but receive far fewer rewards. I suggest that we say "No" to residencies as they are being offered today. No, I suggest that the PAs who want what you want use the existing pathway to get there- MD. We as PAs should not be using our established education/training systems to game the system into becoming physicians. We should be acknowledging the outstanding clinicians that PA education creates, and demonstrate how THAT model can become one of the de facto primary care providers in US health care, alongside MDs, DOs, and NPs. Clamoring for titles and respect of institutions that we are not a part of looks mighty weak…… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.