Ollivander Posted December 20, 2016 I've recently set my sights on PA school, and signed up for courses next semester in order to attain the rest of the prereqs needed in order to apply to both of my in-state PA schools. Before I delve into the question clearly expressed through the title of my post let me give specifics about myself. I am a 24 year old male, soon to be 25 in March. I hold a bachelors degree in finance. I have a 3.43 overall GPA, and a 3.25 science GPA. I've already taken the courses listed below. I'm planning on taking microbiology, abnormal psychology, statistics, and medical terminology this spring. I currently have somewhere between 1,500 and 2,000 volunteer based hours. I have no HCE hours. Science courses already taken at this point in time: Gen Chem 1 (A) Gen Chem 2 (B) Organic Chem 1 (B) Organic Chem 2 (B) A&P 1 (A) A&P 2 (A) Gen Bio 1 (A) Gen Bio 2 (A) Physics 1 (B) Physics 2 (B) After giving you a little background as to where I stand academically, my question is am I making a mistake pursuing a career as a PA? I'm certain I want a career in healthcare. That much I'm sure about. However, I've recently changed my mind and switched from pursuing dental school to pursuing PA school. I came to this decision for various reasons. One being the amount of debt I would have to take on to go to dental school. I wouldn't be able to get into my state school for dental school, and I'm pretty certain of that given how competitive it is academically. That would mean taking anywhere from 300-400K of loans out for school, and another 300-600K out to start up or buy out an existing practice. That's an enormous amount of debt to have, and almost paralyzing. I've been working towards dental school for the past four years, and I've held it on such a pedestal. However, one doesn't really know what a job is like until you work it for an extended period of time. No amount of shadowing is going to give you insight into what it's like after several years of working it. I started thinking about if I enter into that career and it's not as glamorous as I picture it being, there's no turning back really. There's no other route at that point that will be able to pay off that amount of debt. Thus, I started exploring other options, PA being one of them. The cost of schooling would be 60K (South Alabama) and 80K (UAB) if I were to get accepted into one of my in-state schools. The return on investment is much greater when you factor in my chances of going in-state for PA versus out of state for dental. Another reason I like the profession is the lateral mobility it provides even though I realize this is slowly be transitioned out. I wouldn't mind doing a residency and taking a CAQ exam given my age though if I need to. A third reason is the time spent in school, specifically in didactic courses. Although threads like the one below made me really question if making the move was the right decision. It seems like every person in that thread is deterring prospective students away from PA and towards medical school. http://www.physicianassistantforum.com/index.php?/topic/14383-pa-lifestyle/ Anyway, I'm just here to seek any advice some of you with experience in the profession. I don't really have any desire to go to med school. The schooling and training are too long, and I think it may break me. That's hard to admit because I wasn't able to admit it for the longest, but four more years of schooling, then residency, then a fellowship to total anywhere between 7-10 years just isn't worth giving up my time, my ability to invest towards retirement and other ventures at a younger age, and my psyche.
LKPAC Posted December 20, 2016 When I went to PA school, I did it because I love taking care of people. I had significant prior HCE in the military and I knew what caring for people was all about. I never considered cost vs benefit ratios. I still love my work. I'm not dissing, I'm just saying. Whatever you do, do it for the right reasons. If you love your work, it is not really work. I wish you luck in your decision.
DiggySRNA Posted December 20, 2016 WARNING: LONG THREAD/WALL OF WORDS check out very bottom for shorter version. When I started this journey (~17 years young male at the time) I already knew I wanted a career in medicine/health care and my high school college adviser gave me a book titled 100 careers in health care. We sat weeks after weeks going through each career and I had interest in 1 and only 1. Fast forward to today, my desire still remains strong despite reading the good, the bad, and the ugly (mostly from this forum). From the beginning of freshman year, I understood the competitiveness of getting a seat in PA school (currently working on that) and did everything in my will to create a competitive profile. I knew and my current mentor knew what I was lacking...and that was patient care experience. This is the single most important aspect of one's application (IMO) that provides a form of measurement in conjunction with GPAs to adcoms that shows one's work ethic and dedication to the field of health care/medicine. It also provides a basic understanding to them that you know what you are getting yourself into. Can you imagine being a PA-S2 who later finds out he/she is disgusted by abscesses, vaginal/rectal exams, and despise interacting with patients for 8-12+ hours/day? It would kind of be too late to change one's mind, no? Deterring prospective PA students to medical school is a sure way to guarantee death to the profession. Experience allows you to reflect on: Patients straight up attacking your character because they were not happy with their visit How well do you recover from making a minor/major mistake...do you bounce right back, or do you cave and get all wild up over it? Having the ability to swallow your pride and work with coworkers where your personalities do not match. No one knows if pursuing this field is a mistake for you because this should be a personal choice. Yes, the more seasoned/well-experienced and established PAs on here are vocal BUT did they know what the future currently holds for them some years ago? Would they have known they would end up regretting their decision, 5, 10, or 15+ years into practice? Nope, because for whatever reason, at the time they entered the profession, they were quite happy and content. That said, they do raise important concerns. Me personally, have had doubts about pursuing this profession because of all the changes that are currently happening....(1) not all states have the same practice laws (some only have 1 key element to a PA's scope of practice *horrible* and some have all 6 *excellent*). Read up on this. (2) NPs and PAs are the new face of health care teams but only 1 profession seems to progress at a faster rate than the other. (3) The degree awarded is not consistent (some award MMSc, MPA, MSPAS, MSPA, MHS...etc. (4) PA schools' tuition seems to range from 50%-150% more expensive than BSN-MSN/Direct entry NP programs. (5) Insurance companies only reimburse 85% of an advance practice provider services even when they provide the same services as MDs/DOs. This is illogical imo because sometimes the attending provider IS a PA. (6) Some employers have a tendency to think of PAs & NPs to be lesser of true providers, happy where I work that is not the case. But I keep coming back to wanting to be a PA. It's something about the training they receive, the opportunities they have (career/specialty wise), and the fact so many patients express their excitement when I tell them I plan on becoming a PA. Now, I have done some reading in regards to the PA profession during its first inception and compared it to today's data and I can assure you, the practice of PAs is vastly different than what it was in the late 1960s. Yes, there are practice laws that are currently lagging but everything takes time, effort, and money to change. TLTR: gain some direct hands on patient care experience and get a feel for whether you want to pursue a career in medicine OR dentistry. The patient population and daily life in practice are vastly different. The field of medicine is changing and the scope of practice for PAs has changed over the past 50 or so years for the better. Current seasoned PAs have started the battle, but it is up to us, tomorrow's PAs, the new generation to continue the fight until we achieve their vision.
pajourney Posted December 22, 2016 I'll share my advice for you through my blog post on this topic. Hope it helps: PAJourney.com - Why do you want to become a Physician Assistant?
emerson24 Posted December 26, 2016 I've been a PA for 20 years. I entered when I was 26. I thought I would be "too old" when I got done with medical school. I actually went back to naturopathic medical school 6 years ago. I also just finished my masters in Chinese medicine. Looking back, I laugh at the absurdity of "being too old". It's akin to patients coming in at age 40 and attributing their inactivity and pain to "old age". No, it's because you eat junk food and don't exercise. But that's an aside. 40 is not old! If you went to MD school, you could specialize in something like pain management and make in one year what you would make as a PA in probably 7 or 8. If it's a time factor, I would dismiss that as what is keeping you from doing it. I don't know what most people think nowadays as why they don't want to go to medical school but many people at my time seemed to state that they: Don't want the headache of owning a practice. Well, if you have a good office manager, you should not have headaches. Don't want the liability. As a PA, you are just a liable as the doctor, however, they will usually remove you from the case and go after the doctor, but not always. It depends on the case.Don't want to go all the years. Sure, residency may suck, but one day you will look back and think right now I would be this or that, and you won't because you didn't do it. What is your personality like? Do you like taking orders? Are you okay with it? Do you want to be just a puppet or carbon copy? It took me 15 years to realize that my journey ended the same way - faxing out my resume (lots) or being forced to resign (once) or fired (once). For me, I don't tolerate abuse or nonsense so I fired back. Usually fighting fire with fire didn't play to my advantage. If that was now I would have went about things differently, predominantly save more than spend so I didn't have to tolerate the abuse and would have quit having a nest egg to relax and find a good job not just taking one because I was miserable. People on this forum won't like this but facts are facts. Modern medicine is great for emergencies and necessary surgical treatment. As well, diagnostic imaging and other related tests. But when it comes to treatment, it is an abysmal failure always suppressing symptoms but doing nothing to restore balance, strengthen the organism, and to remove obstacles to cure whatever they may be. Will you get satisfaction from writing scripts all day to suppress symptoms and to see people coming back month after month never getting better? If not, then choose something like a surgical specialty or ER. I personally don't like polypharmacy, nor the risks that come with it. Maybe you ought to look into holistic medicine if you want to do PCP stuff because you will actually reverse people's chronic disease. I specialize more in pain management. With acupuncture alone I can reduce people's pain 50-80% in one session. Naturally, it takes several appointments to eradicate it as things are a process, but they aren't all doped up on meds and taxing their liver for the rest of their life. Youtube Dr. Zhu's scalp acupuncture. You'll see real life evidence.If I had to do it all over again, I would have went to MD school rather than PA school, then I would have went to acupuncture school and skipped going to ND school. Although, there is still great things to take from the ND profession, but I would not have paid 200K for it - it's a philosophical issue I have more than anything - another story. You should check out biotherapeutic drainage. You can cherry pick and learn things in ways other than in ND school and be successful in that approach. Check out Nature Cure by Henry Lindlahr. You can download a pdf free. 1st ed. the best but hard to find. The MD degree enables you to take advantage of the money to be made from the system. For me, I have no desire to be part of the system, but again, it enables to you cherry pick what you wish to be part of for the money aspect. We all have bills and loans to pay! There's headaches with insurance but you can circumnavigate them, and that's why you have an office manager. If you really want to heal people, then you may want to rethink PA school.
MedicinePower Posted December 27, 2016 ND school? Are you serious? Please don't call it "medical school" because it's not. If anything PA school is medical school.
Ollivander Posted January 5, 2017 Author I've been a PA for 20 years. I entered when I was 26. I thought I would be "too old" when I got done with medical school. I actually went back to naturopathic medical school 6 years ago. I also just finished my masters in Chinese medicine. Looking back, I laugh at the absurdity of "being too old". It's akin to patients coming in at age 40 and attributing their inactivity and pain to "old age". No, it's because you eat junk food and don't exercise. But that's an aside. 40 is not old! If you went to MD school, you could specialize in something like pain management and make in one year what you would make as a PA in probably 7 or 8. If it's a time factor, I would dismiss that as what is keeping you from doing it. I don't know what most people think nowadays as why they don't want to go to medical school but many people at my time seemed to state that they: Don't want the headache of owning a practice. Well, if you have a good office manager, you should not have headaches. Don't want the liability. As a PA, you are just a liable as the doctor, however, they will usually remove you from the case and go after the doctor, but not always. It depends on the case.Don't want to go all the years. Sure, residency may suck, but one day you will look back and think right now I would be this or that, and you won't because you didn't do it. What is your personality like? Do you like taking orders? Are you okay with it? Do you want to be just a puppet or carbon copy? It took me 15 years to realize that my journey ended the same way - faxing out my resume (lots) or being forced to resign (once) or fired (once). For me, I don't tolerate abuse or nonsense so I fired back. Usually fighting fire with fire didn't play to my advantage. If that was now I would have went about things differently, predominantly save more than spend so I didn't have to tolerate the abuse and would have quit having a nest egg to relax and find a good job not just taking one because I was miserable. People on this forum won't like this but facts are facts. Modern medicine is great for emergencies and necessary surgical treatment. As well, diagnostic imaging and other related tests. But when it comes to treatment, it is an abysmal failure always suppressing symptoms but doing nothing to restore balance, strengthen the organism, and to remove obstacles to cure whatever they may be. Will you get satisfaction from writing scripts all day to suppress symptoms and to see people coming back month after month never getting better? If not, then choose something like a surgical specialty or ER. I personally don't like polypharmacy, nor the risks that come with it. Maybe you ought to look into holistic medicine if you want to do PCP stuff because you will actually reverse people's chronic disease. I specialize more in pain management. With acupuncture alone I can reduce people's pain 50-80% in one session. Naturally, it takes several appointments to eradicate it as things are a process, but they aren't all doped up on meds and taxing their liver for the rest of their life. Youtube Dr. Zhu's scalp acupuncture. You'll see real life evidence. If I had to do it all over again, I would have went to MD school rather than PA school, then I would have went to acupuncture school and skipped going to ND school. Although, there is still great things to take from the ND profession, but I would not have paid 200K for it - it's a philosophical issue I have more than anything - another story. You should check out biotherapeutic drainage. You can cherry pick and learn things in ways other than in ND school and be successful in that approach. Check out Nature Cure by Henry Lindlahr. You can download a pdf free. 1st ed. the best but hard to find. The MD degree enables you to take advantage of the money to be made from the system. For me, I have no desire to be part of the system, but again, it enables to you cherry pick what you wish to be part of for the money aspect. We all have bills and loans to pay! There's headaches with insurance but you can circumnavigate them, and that's why you have an office manager. If you really want to heal people, then you may want to rethink PA school. I have zero desire to go to school for the next 7-10 years to become a MD. It's a poor financial and time investment for diminishing returns. I don't have the passion to take the MCAT, go through 4 more years of school, compete against others to score high enough on Step 1 and 2 of board exams to match into my targeted specialty, go through 3-6 years of residency depending on whether or not it's a surgical specialty all while working 80 hours/week. That kind of commitment just isn't worth it in the end for me. With that said I've never even considered medical school. It's too long of a time commitment before seeing any return on my investment. Sure, over a 30-40 year career it makes more sense financially speaking, but you're also in a position where you are unable to make a career change if somewhere down the line you decide medicine isn't for you or you get burnt out. The debt taken on coupled with the massive time commitment wouldn't allow for it. If I'm going to take on that kind of debt and time commitment then I might as well go to dental school, because it's got a better ROI and lifestyle combination over a 30-40 year career compared to that of a MD. Healthcare changes down the line will likely see physician compensation going down and a shift in more and more care to mid-level providers. Many things that used to only be done by physicians will need to be increasingly done more and more by midlevel providers just to handle the increased healthcare demand of the baby boomers with the increased cost pressure of the current climate. It's just cost effective to hire a handful of PAs versus one physician. Also entering a surgical specialty or another highly coveted specialty such as dermatology is a much easier path through the PA profession versus that of a medical doctor. I won't have to compete against others on board exams to match into a specialty, and that's a huge drawing point for me. I can enter those fields simply by winning over an employer during an interview or taking a CAQ exam to make myself a more attractive candidate. It's just easier entering a surgical field or another highly coveted medical specialty as a PA versus a MD. Again I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying it's easier in comparison.
asong100 Posted April 2, 2017 I have zero desire to go to school for the next 7-10 years to become a MD. It's a poor financial and time investment for diminishing returns. I don't have the passion to take the MCAT, go through 4 more years of school, compete against others to score high enough on Step 1 and 2 of board exams to match into my targeted specialty, go through 3-6 years of residency depending on whether or not it's a surgical specialty all while working 80 hours/week. That kind of commitment just isn't worth it in the end for me. With that said I've never even considered medical school. It's too long of a time commitment before seeing any return on my investment. Sure, over a 30-40 year career it makes more sense financially speaking, but you're also in a position where you are unable to make a career change if somewhere down the line you decide medicine isn't for you or you get burnt out. The debt taken on coupled with the massive time commitment wouldn't allow for it. If I'm going to take on that kind of debt and time commitment then I might as well go to dental school, because it's got a better ROI and lifestyle combination over a 30-40 year career compared to that of a MD. Healthcare changes down the line will likely see physician compensation going down and a shift in more and more care to mid-level providers. Many things that used to only be done by physicians will need to be increasingly done more and more by midlevel providers just to handle the increased healthcare demand of the baby boomers with the increased cost pressure of the current climate. It's just cost effective to hire a handful of PAs versus one physician. Also entering a surgical specialty or another highly coveted specialty such as dermatology is a much easier path through the PA profession versus that of a medical doctor. I won't have to compete against others on board exams to match into a specialty, and that's a huge drawing point for me. I can enter those fields simply by winning over an employer during an interview or taking a CAQ exam to make myself a more attractive candidate. It's just easier entering a surgical field or another highly coveted medical specialty as a PA versus a MD. Again I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying it's easier in comparison. Hey there, I think its great that you are planning on doing PA. Im also 24 turning 25 in June and have been working corporate since college. Corporate world is something I don't see myself being a part of throughout my career so I am planning on applying to PA or Pharm school pretty soon. I still need to take Microbio this summer and Medical Terminology while also racking up as much HCE hours as possible. We should keep each other updated on the progress. When are you planning on applying?
Ollivander Posted April 2, 2017 Author Hey there, I think its great that you are planning on doing PA. Im also 24 turning 25 in June and have been working corporate since college. Corporate world is something I don't see myself being a part of throughout my career so I am planning on applying to PA or Pharm school pretty soon. I still need to take Microbio this summer and Medical Terminology while also racking up as much HCE hours as possible. We should keep each other updated on the progress. When are you planning on applying? I'm in the same boat. I just turned 25 in March. I'm taking micro and medical terminology now too, as well as genetics, abnormal psych, and elementary statistics. Once I finish these courses up in May I'll need to start accruing HCE hours. I've been debating about what to do in regards to that, but now I think I'm just going to do an EMT program over the summer and get certified. Afterwards I'll start looking for ER/ED Tech positions within hospitals. Hopefully I can snag one. An ER/ED Tech position would be the most ideal for me because it'll put me in an environment where I'm surrounded by lots of docs (and hopefully PAs) that I can use to get shadowing hours and letters of recommendation. If all goes well I hope to have enough hours to apply in April 2018. What about you? When are you targeting to apply and what's your plan to rack up HCE hours?
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