PAHopeful1819 Posted December 18, 2016 Hi, I am currently a pre-PA sophomore undergrad. Quite frankly, when it comes to making my list of schools of interest, I have relied heavily on PA School Rankings provided by US News. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-health-schools/physician-assistant-rankings I know that generally, PANCE passing rates, cost of tuition, length of schooling, location, and quality of rotations are good criteria for deciding upon schools of interest, but I kind of just assume the "top" schools on these lists shine in all of those categories (aside for location of course, which is relative). I have heard that the ranking system uses some arbitrary metrics for determining these ranks so it can kind of be challenging for me when deciding my schools of interest. I also know that I shouldn't base my preferences solely on prestige alone but as stated before, I can't help but associate prestige with quality. For those who would be interested on commenting on the general qualities of the school, listed below are my current schools of interest. I am very aware that this list is bound to change. I am from Northern Indiana so I have selected accordingly by location (except for Baylor, Denver, and Yale). List: Duke, Wake Forest, Rosalind Franklin, Northwestern, Yale, Baylor, Denver, Midwestern, Butler, Rush, and Wisconsin-Mad.
hawkeye88 Posted December 18, 2016 I'm just going to leave this here... http://www2.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=action/GetDocumentAction/i/118967 My personal thought is that at the end of the day you're going to be a PA. Would it be cool to say you went to Yale or Northwestern? Sure, but I highly doubt its going to make you a better PA in the long run.
MT2PA Posted December 18, 2016 Why assume the ranking correlate to having good PANCE rates, rotations, etc when you can just check those out for each school? Seriously, every school will give you the information you're looking for. Prestige does not always = quality. Lack of prestige does not = lack of quality. Don't limit yourself to the rankings. You say you're from N. Indiana but the bulk of your list doesn't correlate to your location (Yale, Baylor, Denver are all arguably not regional to your location). If you're willing to go that far, there are numerous other quality programs out there. Truly, you're better off going somewhere where you can do rotations in a location you might like to work in after school (basically a several week job interview) because that's going to have more pull than saying you went to XYZ the #whatever ranked PA program.
PAHopeful1819 Posted December 18, 2016 Author I'm just going to leave this here... http://www2.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=action/GetDocumentAction/i/118967 My personal thought is that at the end of the day you're going to be a PA. Would it be cool to say you went to Yale or Northwestern? Sure, but I highly doubt its going to make you a better PA in the long run. Right, and that's all I honestly care about. I want to go to the school that will best prepare me to become a PA. Simple as that. I hope I am not being misunderstood when I talk about prestige. I'm interested in the school's prestige because I am using it as a means of assessing quality, but not for personal boasting or anything of that sort.
PAHopeful1819 Posted December 18, 2016 Author Why assume the ranking correlate to having good PANCE rates, rotations, etc when you can just check those out for each school? Seriously, every school will give you the information you're looking for. Prestige does not always = quality. Lack of prestige does not = lack of quality. Don't limit yourself to the rankings. You say you're from N. Indiana but the bulk of your list doesn't correlate to your location (Yale, Baylor, Denver are all arguably not regional to your location). If you're willing to go that far, there are numerous other quality programs out there. Truly, you're better off going somewhere where you can do rotations in a location you might like to work in after school (basically a several week job interview) because that's going to have more pull than saying you went to XYZ the #whatever ranked PA program. Okay, that makes sense. I have just recently started to look at the individual schools themselves for these criteria actually. So when it comes to assessing strength of clinical rotations, does it generally come down to amount of clinical rotations offered, number of elective rotations offered, and the hospital with which the school is linked to?
IDCtoPA Posted December 18, 2016 I would completely ignore those rankings. I would begin by looking at public universities in your state of residence. If any have a PA program that has high >95% PANCE pass rate that is where I would try to go. Are there differences between PA programs. Certainly there are. But, do those differences make up for the added cost of attending a "Prestige" school and paying out of state or private university tuition? I just can't see how they would. No employer is going to pay you 30% or 40% more because you graduated from Duke or Yale so why on earth would you pay 30% or 40% more to go there? So many young people make this mistake. It is why there is such a student debt problem today. Think of it as a purchase.... You are purchasing a MPAS degree. You have a choice of places that sell those degrees. Some have pretty campuses and prestigious names and they charge you a premium for that. But at the end of the day when you leave you are only leaving with a MPAS degree. Why pay extra for the name and pretty campus. Now, if one has a 90% PANCE pass rate and one has a 99% PANCE pass rate, then that is a difference that is worth paying extra for, but a 95% pass vs a 96% pass is not. Just my opinion.
MT2PA Posted December 18, 2016 Okay, that makes sense. I have just recently started to look at the individual schools themselves for these criteria actually. So when it comes to assessing strength of clinical rotations, does it generally come down to amount of clinical rotations offered, number of elective rotations offered, and the hospital with which the school is linked to? I don't know that AMOUNTs are necessarily the most important thing. Some schools do offer more rotations (8, 10, 12) but sometimes the ones that offer more, offer shorter rotations. So sure, you may get to do 12 rotations but 4 weeks each while some schools do 8 rotations with 6 weeks each. There are pros and cons to both. You want clinical rotations at good locations - in that they are fostering to students. You want places where you will get to see/do/learn things. Sometimes bigger programs or programs associated with med schools end up sharing...so you're competing with med students and/or residents for pt face time. (See how that prestige thing doesn't always = perfection?) Really the best thing to do, and you might not really be able to do this until you interview at schools, is ask current students about rotations. But in terms of deciding where to apply, location is more about where you might want to live after school. Do you want to be in Denver? If you have NO desire to live there after school, maybe the mountains aren't your thing, that might be money and effort you want to put into applying to a program somewhere else. Make sure you'd be happy everywhere you apply in case you only end up with one option, but if you have many options, then you can really give a hard look at rotations to sway your decision.
PAHopeful1819 Posted December 18, 2016 Author I have already started to revise my list heavily thanks to you guys. I really appreciate it! @MT2PA, I didn't even think of the schools assoc. with med schools and competition for clinical time aspect. I would hope that the hospitals would tudor to both Med and PA students proportionately but I could easily see how that may not always be the case.. interesting.
Maynard Posted December 18, 2016 Search through this forum. The US News and World Report rankings are a joke to everyone in the PA program. They might as well have just picked the schools at random. You want to go to a school that will make you look good? Go to an underrecognized, bottom-rated community college program that has low attrition and high PANCE pass rates. When you come out with PACKRAT and PANCE scores in the top percentiles people will be super-impressed -- "this PA must be a genius". On the other hand, if you go to Stanford and barely pass (as many of their students do), people will think you're an idiot -- "this PA couldn't even pass the first time after getting taught at one of the most 'best' schools".
mandrew1 Posted December 18, 2016 A note about “Ranking” PA programs The only current media for ranking PA educational programs is US News & World Report (US News). The rankings are typically updated and published every year. US News ranks PA programs based on a subjective survey of PA school faculty and administration. In my opinion, many PA school applicants, PA students, and PA faculty rely on this report as a valid indicator of a program’s success. US News & World Report has been publishing results for the top PA programs since 1998. In an article titled: A Novel Approach to Ranking Physician Assistant Programs (2010 Vol 21 No 4/ The Journal of Physician Assistant Education, by James Van Rhee, MS, PA-C; Michael J. Davanzo, MMS, PA-C) a new approach to ranking PA programs was proposed based on objective data. PA program directors from 126 accredited PA programs (at the time) identified indicators to include in a new ranking system for PA programs. The four criteria they agreed upon were: Each program’s current Accreditation Review Commission on Education for the Physician Assistant (ARC-PA) accreditation length Student-to-faculty ratio Percentage of faculty with doctoral degrees Most recent five-year average PANCE rates For example,in the above article, University of Wisconsin-Lacrosse ranks number one in the new system, but doesn’t rank in the top twenty in the US News system. Duke University ranks number two in the US News & World Report ranking system, but not in the top twenty in the new ranking system. So what does this mean to you, the PA school applicant, when deciding to select a PA program? In my opinion, it means that you have to do your homework, and look at the four criteria listed above, versus taking the US News & World Report data as an absolute indicator of the best PA programs. I’m a big believer in reviewing a program’s first-time PANCE rates to assess the quality of that program. If the program’s PANCE rates are high (94-percent and above), it means they’re doing an effective job of preparing students to pass the boards and ultimately be eligible to practice as a PA. I don’t care how prestigious a PA program may be, or how high US News & World Report ranks a program, if you invest two or more years of your time, and possibly $100,000 or more on your education, you’ll want to be sure that you will be able to pass your boards once you graduate. If you don’t pass your boards, you can’t work!
cop to pa Posted December 18, 2016 I'm a first year at one of the top programs you listed. I like the program and am glad to be here. But, a PA is a PA. As long as it is an accredited program, you can learn and become a competent clinician for decent wages. Don't worry about the name. I was torn between this program and a much lesser known one. The name had very little to do with the decision process.
Rhizopus Posted December 18, 2016 No employer is going to pay you 30% or 40% more because you graduated from Duke or Yale so why on earth would you pay 30% or 40% more to go there? Why pay extra for the name and pretty campus. Generally, I would agree. However, as someone who has assisted in hiring I can say this can make a difference, especially if it is their first job and have little experience to fall back on. A degree from Stanford or Duke, for example, does stand out much more than one from a much less known program. It suggests a certain level of achievement to have been accepted to that program. I don't want to come across as saying that's the only factor. Frankly, I think personality is probably the most important factor. I just don't want to say it's not a factor because it certainly can be.
MT2PA Posted December 19, 2016 Generally, I would agree. However, as someone who has assisted in hiring I can say this can make a difference, especially if it is their first job and have little experience to fall back on. A degree from Stanford or Duke, for example, does stand out much more than one from a much less known program. It suggests a certain level of achievement to have been accepted to that program. I don't want to come across as saying that's the only factor. Frankly, I think personality is probably the most important factor. I just don't want to say it's not a factor because it certainly can be. I agree to the extent that it may get someone to look at your resume a little harder; they might pause seeing a well known grad school vs something that is regionally known. Could get your name seen as opposed to just tossed in the trash.
AliB Posted December 19, 2016 A note about “Ranking” PA programs The only current media for ranking PA educational programs is US News & World Report (US News). The rankings are typically updated and published every year. US News ranks PA programs based on a subjective survey of PA school faculty and administration. In my opinion, many PA school applicants, PA students, and PA faculty rely on this report as a valid indicator of a program’s success. US News & World Report has been publishing results for the top PA programs since 1998. In an article titled: A Novel Approach to Ranking Physician Assistant Programs (2010 Vol 21 No 4/ The Journal of Physician Assistant Education, by James Van Rhee, MS, PA-C; Michael J. Davanzo, MMS, PA-C) a new approach to ranking PA programs was proposed based on objective data. PA program directors from 126 accredited PA programs (at the time) identified indicators to include in a new ranking system for PA programs. The four criteria they agreed upon were: Each program’s current Accreditation Review Commission on Education for the Physician Assistant (ARC-PA) accreditation length Student-to-faculty ratio Percentage of faculty with doctoral degrees Most recent five-year average PANCE rates For example,in the above article, University of Wisconsin-Lacrosse ranks number one in the new system, but doesn’t rank in the top twenty in the US News system. Duke University ranks number two in the US News & World Report ranking system, but not in the top twenty in the new ranking system. So what does this mean to you, the PA school applicant, when deciding to select a PA program? In my opinion, it means that you have to do your homework, and look at the four criteria listed above, versus taking the US News & World Report data as an absolute indicator of the best PA programs. I’m a big believer in reviewing a program’s first-time PANCE rates to assess the quality of that program. If the program’s PANCE rates are high (94-percent and above), it means they’re doing an effective job of preparing students to pass the boards and ultimately be eligible to practice as a PA. I don’t care how prestigious a PA program may be, or how high US News & World Report ranks a program, if you invest two or more years of your time, and possibly $100,000 or more on your education, you’ll want to be sure that you will be able to pass your boards once you graduate. If you don’t pass your boards, you can’t work! I think you need to add a parameter/qualifier to the assessment of 1st-time PANCE pass rates. You also have to look at how many people the program ACCEPTS against how many people were IN that 1st-time PANCE pass rate %. When a program only graduates 85-90% of the people they accept, there's still a deficiency.
greenmood Posted December 22, 2016 Agreed. If the school is losing students consistently (either during the didactic or clinical years) then you should try to find out why. What is their faculty support system like? What happens when a student is struggling academically? Personally? What specific measures does the school take, and what do they expect a struggling student to do, in order to remediate the problem. Having graduated from one of the programs on your short-list and now in my fourth year of practice, I think you should come to an interview with a plan. You need to find out about the school's clinical rotations. I don't expect a school to divulge details to students early in the application process (especially in and around Chicago, the schools have a lot of competition and work very hard to develop relationships with quality preceptors... to hand that over to every applicant is silly) but once you are there for an interview I believe you have the right to more specific information. The actual physical location of the sites matters less than the quality of the experience - and for that you need to talk to current students, and lots of them. Don't just ask "how are your clinical sites?" Ask them how many other students share a preceptor with them. How often do they compete with another student to complete an exam, deliver a baby, perform a procedure, first assist, etc? Ask them how many hours per day they spend operating on the surgery rotation. In internal medicine, did they have the option of hospital based versus outpatient? What procedures have they done? Does the school offer any unique opportunities like travel rotations? Do any of them have jobs lined up, and if so, did those come from rotations or other contacts? How many times per rotation does the school check on them, either through an official site visit or phone call? Hope that helps. You'd be well off shortening your application list based on where you want to live and work, and then using the interview to dig deep.
PA-C-to-be Posted December 22, 2016 Rankings exist but they shouldn't create your list in my opinion. I applied to schools that all happen to be on the list but the range of rankings spanned from top 10 to about #100 and I interviewed at schools at both ends of that spectrum and in between and loved them all for different reasons. Think of what you value and what you want from your PA education. For me, I didn't want to attend any developing programs (and there are a LOT of them where I live in NC) because PANCE data was not available and I didn't feel comfortable taking a potential gamble on a private school that only is provisionally accredited. On the topic of accreditation, has the program ever lost accreditation since its installation? Also is there a certain specialty you're interested in? A few of the programs I applied to put a special emphasis on a certain specialty but still provided a well-rounded education but that extra training in a certain area sparked my interest. Think of where you want to live, because that may become home after graduation too and consider if that fits your life. If you have a significant other that's going to go with you, consider how your decisions will impact them. Finances only have been a big factor now at the end in making my final choices, most schools are expensive private schools but don't rule out the state schools that meet your needs/wants. The less you have to take out in loans to get the quality education you seek, the better. Another thing to consider less heavily in your decisions is the faculty, are they PAs? Do they currently practice? What's their background? If you can find that information, I feel it's somewhat helpful in giving you as a prospective student an understanding of how "in the know" your professors are in the current PA climate and how they will prepare you to join it.
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