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Just because we only see the bad offers on this forum


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I feel like people who have good contracts never post to this forum because they know that they've got a decent deal. Which makes sense. They don't need the advice. But I feel that it lowers everyone's expectations, encourages folks to take crap offers, and that's bad for all of us. I graduate in august (background is 6yrs ems) and recently signed a contract, which isn't much different than most of my cohort.

Urgent care. 38hrs a week. Minimum of 6 months of mentoring by an experienced provider, and then after that, always at least one doc on sight. Medical director said he didnt want me seeing any more than 2pts an hour for at least 1-2yrs. No nights. No call. Base 110k with a generous rvu based bonus (the medical director and all of the PAs I spoke with said that the pa/nps roughly double their base after a couple of years experience)

4wks vacation, 72hrs sick time, 9 paid holidays, 2 floating holidays, 1wk cme and 3k, 10k quality incentive bonus (said about 2/3 get it). They pay all lice sing fees/dea and 2 professional memberships of my choice. Stellar health/dental/vision/disability/retirement etc. Within biking distance from my house.

Probably other stuff I'm forgetting, but you get the point. If they can afford to pay me that, and STILL make money off of me...... don't sell yourselves short....

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I feel like people who have good contracts never post to this forum because they know that they've got a decent deal. Which makes sense. They don't need the advice. But I feel that it lowers everyone's expectations, encourages folks to take crap offers, and that's bad for all of us. I graduate in august (background is 6yrs ems) and recently signed a contract, which isn't much different than most of my cohort.

Urgent care. 38hrs a week. Minimum of 6 months of mentoring by an experienced provider, and then after that, always at least one doc on sight. Medical director said he didnt want me seeing any more than 2pts an hour for at least 1-2yrs. No nights. No call. Base 110k with a generous rvu based bonus (the medical director and all of the PAs I spoke with said that the pa/nps roughly double their base after a couple of years experience)

4wks vacation, 72hrs sick time, 9 paid holidays, 2 floating holidays, 1wk cme and 3k, 10k quality incentive bonus (said about 2/3 get it). They pay all lice sing fees/dea and 2 professional memberships of my choice. Stellar health/dental/vision/disability/retirement etc. Within biking distance from my house.

Probably other stuff I'm forgetting, but you get the point. If they can afford to pay me that, and STILL make money off of me...... don't sell yourselves short....

In which state will this contract be? Will they pay your malpractice with tail? It sounds very solid for a new grad. Congrats.

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I feel like people who have good contracts never post to this forum because they know that they've got a decent deal. Which makes sense. They don't need the advice. But I feel that it lowers everyone's expectations, encourages folks to take crap offers, and that's bad for all of us. I graduate in august (background is 6yrs ems) and recently signed a contract, which isn't much different than most of my cohort.

Urgent care. 38hrs a week. Minimum of 6 months of mentoring by an experienced provider, and then after that, always at least one doc on sight. Medical director said he didnt want me seeing any more than 2pts an hour for at least 1-2yrs. No nights. No call. Base 110k with a generous rvu based bonus (the medical director and all of the PAs I spoke with said that the pa/nps roughly double their base after a couple of years experience)

4wks vacation, 72hrs sick time, 9 paid holidays, 2 floating holidays, 1wk cme and 3k, 10k quality incentive bonus (said about 2/3 get it). They pay all lice sing fees/dea and 2 professional memberships of my choice. Stellar health/dental/vision/disability/retirement etc. Within biking distance from my house.

Probably other stuff I'm forgetting, but you get the point. If they can afford to pay me that, and STILL make money off of me...... don't sell yourselves short....

 

I wouldn't classify this offer as "decent". I would say that it's amazing.

 

The average salary (as per the AAPA salary report) for PAs with 0-1 years of experience in urgent care is $81k with a $2k bonus. Unfortunately, that appears to be the norm.

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Leo, yes, includes malpractice with tail. I will be in the PNW. And maverick, aapa salary reports are self reported salaries. It doesn't get a lot of folks. Maybe the people making good money are too busy enjoying things to fill our the survey? Could we figure out a more inclusive way of doing salary surveys? I don't know. But I do know that no one in my program has accepted an offer under 100k.

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Leo, yes, includes malpractice with tail. I will be in the PNW. And maverick, aapa salary reports are self reported salaries. It doesn't get a lot of folks. Maybe the people making good money are too busy enjoying things to fill our the survey? Could we figure out a more inclusive way of doing salary surveys? I don't know. But I do know that no one in my program has accepted an offer under 100k.

 

Fair enough.

 

Personally, I find it VERY difficult to find any PA that's even willing to discuss their salary. Many folks here aren't willing to discuss it either. Besides the AAPA salary report, there's really nothing reliable to base salary requests on.

 

At the same time, I do think that your offer is really good for a new grad in urgent care. Most of my friends from PA school ended up with really crap jobs out of school and just took them for experience. One guy even went through an unpaid "training period". If they finished at the top of their class or had connections, they did better.

 

(DISCLAIMER: I'm from New York and we have reached saturation here. Even as an experienced PA, I have not found a decent job)

 

Another friend that moved to Miami held out for a 6 figure derm job. She got what she was looking for, but was no longer working there after about a year. I don't know any of the details. She has been pretty tight-lipped about her entire PA experience (likely not a good thing). She recently switched to neurology. When I ask her about her job, she states that it is "okay" and doesn't elaborate.

 

My personal experience (especially in the civilian world) has also not been good: unscrupulous employers with low-ball salaries (even by AAPA standards). I'm moving to a completely different part of the country. So I will let you all know how that turns out.

 

But it definitely hasn't been unicorns and rainbows for me.

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Fair enough.

 

Personally, I find it VERY difficult to find any PA that's even willing to discuss their salary. Many folks here aren't willing to discuss it either. Besides the AAPA salary report, there's really nothing reliable to base salary requests on.

 

At the same time, I do think that your offer is really good for a new grad in urgent care. Most of my friends from PA school ended up with really crap jobs out of school and just took them for experience. One guy even went through an unpaid "training period". If they finished at the top of their class or had connections, they did better.

 

(DISCLAIMER: I'm from New York and we have reached saturation here. Even as an experienced PA, I have not found a decent job)

 

Another friend that moved to Miami held out for a 6 figure derm job. She got what she was looking for, but was no longer working there after about a year. I don't know any of the details. She has been pretty tight-lipped about her entire PA experience (likely not a good thing). She recently switched to neurology. When I ask her about her job, she states that it is "okay" and doesn't elaborate.

 

My personal experience (especially in the civilian world) has also not been good: unscrupulous employers with low-ball salaries (even by AAPA standards). I'm moving to a completely different part of the country. So I will let you all know how that turns out.

 

But it definitely hasn't been unicorns and rainbows for me.

Well, I think people are also afraid to ask. But that is why I put this on here. To start a conversation and to shed light on what is out there. If people think everyone else is making 75k, they are more willing to take a job for 75k, and then employers see they only need to pay 75k..... bad for all of us.

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Well, I think people are also afraid to ask. But that is why I put this on here. To start a conversation and to shed light on what is out there. If people think everyone else is making 75k, they are more willing to take a job for 75k, and then employers see they only need to pay 75k..... bad for all of us.

 

Agreed, but I think it also depends on the field that you're working in. 75k in urgent care for an inexperienced PA is terrible. 75k in dermatology with 25% collections after 300k for an experienced derm PA is awesome. 75k in allergy/immunology for an inexperienced PA is on the lower end of normal.

 

So it's all relative.

 

For me, personally, I'm not afraid to ask about salary at all. I didn't even realize that salary was something that you don't ask about (especially when we're all in the same field). So in my first year or 2 of practicing, I was pretty much asking everyone. The vast majority were reluctant to talk about it.

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Love this. People really need to start posting their good new grad offers! I really dislike that so many new grads are taking these crappy low ball offers. So far with me and the classmates I've spoken with no one is considering offers below $100K for fulltime benefited positions. I know a few who were offered $60/hr for Urgent Care. Keep 'em coming so we don't price ourselves too low. It just ends up hurting everyone by essentially undercutting our peers.

We are in Southern California however which has a higher cost of living

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Agreed, but I think it also depends on the field that you're working in. 75k in urgent care for an inexperienced PA is terrible. 75k in dermatology with 25% collections after 300k for an experienced derm PA is awesome. 75k in allergy/immunology for an inexperienced PA is on the lower end of normal.

 

So it's all relative.

 

For me, personally, I'm not afraid to ask about salary at all. I didn't even realize that salary was something that you don't ask about (especially when we're all in the same field). So in my first year or 2 of practicing, I was pretty much asking everyone. The vast majority were reluctant to talk about it.

Agree 100%, NO ONE likes to talk about salary even though we all do the very same thing! And I'm not talking about asking a PA from another field, I'm talking about asking PAs who are colleagues ... everyone is tight lipped.  It's frustrating. And yes, things are very different in NYC - I've heard many classmates say they were told by HR salaries for new grads are simply non-negotiable. 

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In many parts of the country if your employer makes it a rule that you can't talk about salaries you can be fired for discussing your salary with co-workers. In the rest of the country your employer will just find another reason.

 

That being said you all are right. The reason it is a fireable offense is because transparency between employees costs the employer money and it is in their best interest to keep things as opaque as possible.

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Salary and reimbursement is a tough subject.

 

States are different, specialties are different, Private practice vs corporate demon is different.

 

And, yes, most employers want this stuff confidential. 

 

In large part - an employer, especially corporate might make an offer for a hard to fill position that will just royally PI&& off every other PA employed there. It is not in the least fair and could start a mutiny.

 

I was employed by a multispecialty clinic - small corporate hell - and found out they paid a guy in Ortho $5000 moving expenses when I only got $1000 in FP. I called it on the carpet and earned myself a spot on the badside of the CEO. I had more experience than this ortho guy (in both ortho and FP) and had moved farther at much greater expense but they had to pay him more to work with the turd of a surgeon he was hired for. Again, not cool.

 

So, every PA employed has, to some extent, negotiated for themselves the best possible contract and that contract often screws everyone else. Trying to get someone into certain positions takes more bait. 

 

I work for a solo private doctor - one of the last ones in existence in my town - I get paid a bit less, have fewer benefits but have the freedom to refer to whomever I want and make decisions without some administrator breathing down my neck. I make a fair wage and take care of my family. I didn't get into this to make a million dollars.

 

Pay on the East Coast will be higher and the cost of living is way higher. Same in California. 

 

So, I don't compare salaries with anyone - usually benefits.

 

My biggest gripe at 25 years in - that new grads think they should make what I make and that they demand more without the experience.

PA salaries currently have a ceiling and the more the new grads push this - the worse it will be for all of us.

 

Just my cranky old 2 cents......

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In many parts of the country if your employer makes it a rule that you can't talk about salaries you can be fired for discussing your salary with co-workers. In the rest of the country your employer will just find another reason.

 

That being said you all are right. The reason it is a fireable offense is because transparency between employees costs the employer money and it is in their best interest to keep things as opaque as possible.

 

It's not just employees though. Even when I meet and speak with people casually, they are reluctant to talk about these things. So it seems to be a matter of etiquette. Most etiquette rules, from what I've observed, seem to be arbitrary anyway.

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It's not just employees though. Even when I meet and speak with people casually, they are reluctant to talk about these things. So it seems to be a matter of etiquette. Most etiquette rules, from what I've observed, seem to be arbitrary anyway.

Yes, it is etiquette.

 

I don't want to go to medical conference or a BBQ and have someone asking me about my salary. It is rude.

 

Just as I do not want to look at your rash over the produce aisle in the grocery store when you see me there.

 

I have looked at contracts, drawn on them in red ink and made suggestions. ONLY WHEN ASKED. I don't show people my contract - just my lawyer.

 

If a PA REALLY wants to get down to brass tacks about this - join a Union, form a Union or get a job that belongs to a Union.

 

Once employed - ALWAYS know what you produce and if the employer won't produce documentation - either leave or get an attorney. 

 

We are unfortunately boiled down to revenue producing employees in our current state - we are still entitled to know what we produce and how it is billed.

 

Then and only then, can we negotiate for higher salaries or reimbursements. In our current dependent state - docs make a crapload of money off of us.

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My biggest gripe at 25 years in - that new grads think they should make what I make and that they demand more without the experience.

PA salaries currently have a ceiling and the more the new grads push this - the worse it will be for all of us.

 

 

If a new grad can negotiate a great deal with a big salary and nice benefits, then he or she should do so and feel really good about it. It's not hurting you or anyone else. In fact, every PA who refuses to work for a mediocre salary pushes the market price up a little more. In a capitalistic economy, labor is a commodity and it's up to the worker to sell it for as much as he or she can.

 

Strong work, OP. 

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"If a new grad can negotiate a great deal with a big salary and nice benefits, then he or she should do so and feel really good about it. It's not hurting you or anyone else. In fact, every PA who refuses to work for a mediocre salary pushes the market price up a little more. In a capitalistic economy, labor is a commodity and it's up to the worker to sell it for as much as he or she can."

===============================================================================================================================

 

And therein lies my problem with medicine. A capitalist society making profit on medical care at the expense of the patient.

 

There IS a ceiling to PA salaries and the new grads are only going to make employers leery of our whole profession and mess it up for those of us who have done this for a long time. They will hire NPs when PAs price themselves out without experience.

 

Medicine should not be about profit. Medicine should be an ART practiced.

 

Fair wage for fair work. 

 

I don't want an argument with you - this just points out a HUGE generational difference and belief system.

 

The US medical system is messed up enough without salary gouging.

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Yes, it is etiquette.

 

I don't want to go to medical conference or a BBQ and have someone asking me about my salary. It is rude.

 

Just as I do not want to look at your rash over the produce aisle in the grocery store when you see me there.

 

I have looked at contracts, drawn on them in red ink and made suggestions. ONLY WHEN ASKED. I don't show people my contract - just my lawyer.

 

If a PA REALLY wants to get down to brass tacks about this - join a Union, form a Union or get a job that belongs to a Union.

 

Once employed - ALWAYS know what you produce and if the employer won't produce documentation - either leave or get an attorney. 

 

We are unfortunately boiled down to revenue producing employees in our current state - we are still entitled to know what we produce and how it is billed.

 

Then and only then, can we negotiate for higher salaries or reimbursements. In our current dependent state - docs make a crapload of money off of us.

 

 

And therein lies my problem with medicine. A capitalist society making profit on medical care at the expense of the patient.

 

There IS a ceiling to PA salaries and the new grads are only going to make employers leery of our whole profession and mess it up for those of us who have done this for a long time. They will hire NPs when PAs price themselves out without experience.

 

Medicine should not be about profit. Medicine should be an ART practiced.

 

Fair wage for fair work. 

 

I don't want an argument with you - this just points out a HUGE generational difference and belief system.

 

The US medical system is messed up enough without salary gouging.

 

So I'm a little confused here.

 

It seems that you get offended when people ask about your salary, even if it is for practical reasons. For example, a young, new PA is unsure of our value and is negotiating a salary. He/she knows nothing about negotiating and has no idea where to look for resources and has no mentors to talk to. You are unwilling to help this person based on your 25 years of experience.

 

However, if this person (the one that you were unwilling to mentor) negotiates a higher salary than you currently have, you are also offended.

 

Maybe if the older generation was more willing to advise the younger generation, these kinds of things wouldn't happen.

 

Personally, I have found mentors that are very willing to help and give advice, but I've had to look long and hard for them. And I only found them after getting screwed multiple times by unscrupulous employers.

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I am not allowed to discuss my salary by contract.

 

I will help younger PAs - as long as their outlook is realistic and not all about the money.

Too often, the questions ARE all about the money and not about the job duties and the skill set or the confidence of the new grad.

That makes any advice unheard if it doesn't reinforce the idea that it is all about the money.

 

Corporate medicine is my absolute nemesis and the creator of many a salary discrepancy. One is drawn into the web by the money up front and then trapped.

 

I am feeling the limitations of our profession at this point in my career when my years of experience do not add up to a higher salary than a new grad despite my abilities and skills and capacity to work without direct oversight. 

 

It does seem unrewarding to do something for so many years and not receive a better salary. And, yes, I have kids and bills to pay. Not in this for millions but would like some hierarchy and reward for busting my butt and being good at what I do. 

 

Said my peace............................

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In many parts of the country if your employer makes it a rule that you can't talk about salaries you can be fired for discussing your salary with co-workers. In the rest of the country your employer will just find another reason.

 

That being said you all are right. The reason it is a fireable offense is because transparency between employees costs the employer money and it is in their best interest to keep things as opaque as possible.

 

 

I am not allowed to discuss my salary by contract.

 

 

It is usually ILLEGAL under federal law for employers to prevent employees for discussing salary under the National Labor Relations Act of 1935. Most contracts that include such language are inherently nullified, even if you sign it. Employer retaliation for discussing salary is illegal as well.

 

I'm not completely naive, so I understand that it's not always worth your time/energy to make a federal case when an employer does such a thing. But we should not give up our legal rights for convenience either. 

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"If a new grad can negotiate a great deal with a big salary and nice benefits, then he or she should do so and feel really good about it. It's not hurting you or anyone else. In fact, every PA who refuses to work for a mediocre salary pushes the market price up a little more. In a capitalistic economy, labor is a commodity and it's up to the worker to sell it for as much as he or she can."

===============================================================================================================================

 

And therein lies my problem with medicine. A capitalist society making profit on medical care at the expense of the patient.

 

There IS a ceiling to PA salaries and the new grads are only going to make employers leery of our whole profession and mess it up for those of us who have done this for a long time. They will hire NPs when PAs price themselves out without experience.

 

Medicine should not be about profit. Medicine should be an ART practiced.

 

Fair wage for fair work. 

 

I don't want an argument with you - this just points out a HUGE generational difference and belief system.

 

The US medical system is messed up enough without salary gouging.

 

I'm going to bet you didn't pay 140k for PA school either. Another HUGE generational difference. Rising cost of education has far outstripped inflation. So I do understand when new grads worry about money maybe a little more than what the older generation used to.

 

I agree with your point that it shouldn't be about money/profit. But it's very difficult in today's world to get a medical education for a reasonable price, for most. That's not our fault, but it is our reality.

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I'm going to bet you didn't pay 140k for PA school either. Another HUGE generational difference. Rising cost of education has far outstripped inflation. So I do understand when new grads worry about money maybe a little more than what the older generation used to.

 

I agree with your point that it shouldn't be about money/profit. But it's very difficult in today's world to get a medical education for a reasonable price, for most. That's not our fault, but it is our reality.

 

Good point.

 

I feel really bad for the new grads coming out right now. Even when I graduated (way back in 2012 lol), there were way more scholarships available. Hell, tuition at my school increased from 70k total to 90k total since then. Crazy.

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In many parts of the country if your employer makes it a rule that you can't talk about salaries you can be fired for discussing your salary with co-workers. In the rest of the country your employer will just find another reason.

 

That being said you all are right. The reason it is a fireable offense is because transparency between employees costs the employer money and it is in their best interest to keep things as opaque as possible.

By federal law, the national labor relations board covers employees other than municipal employees. It is a violation of federal law for you to be fired for discussing salary. Numerous lawsuits through out the country on this.

 

You have the RIGHT to discuss your salary in an effort to improve your workplace.

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There IS a ceiling to PA salaries and the new grads are only going to make employers leery of our whole profession and mess it up for those of us who have done this for a long time. They will hire NPs when PAs price themselves out without experience.

 

This doesn't make any sense. A recent thread on this site pointed out that in northern California, NPs were hired preferentially over PAs AND were paid on a higher scale. It doesn't appear that demanding more money cost the NPs any jobs. Never mind the fact that in so much of the country, PAs and NPs are classified the same by employers (my hospitals calls both "Advanced Practitioners" and doesn't differentiate). PAs and NPs are on a level field in that respect. 

 

It is entirely possible to take great care of patients AND get a great paycheck. Lots of people have been doing it for a long time and newly graduated PAs do well to negotiate for all they can. This isn't generational (you and I are of the same generation, for what it's worth), it's ideological. If you disagree so strongly with capitalism itself, then I'll leave you to that. I've never met anyone on either side of that debate whose mind could be changed. But as long as we live in the world that we live in, there's no reason to expect anyone to settle for someone else's definition of a "fair wage" if it doesn't match up to his own. 

 

If you feel like you're more valuable than the new grad (and you probably are), then make your case and prove it to your employer. No one will hold it against you. But if you don't want to or can't negotiate, it's not the new guy's fault. 

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"If a new grad can negotiate a great deal with a big salary and nice benefits, then he or she should do so and feel really good about it. It's not hurting you or anyone else. In fact, every PA who refuses to work for a mediocre salary pushes the market price up a little more. In a capitalistic economy, labor is a commodity and it's up to the worker to sell it for as much as he or she can."

===============================================================================================================================

 

And therein lies my problem with medicine. A capitalist society making profit on medical care at the expense of the patient.

 

There IS a ceiling to PA salaries and the new grads are only going to make employers leery of our whole profession and mess it up for those of us who have done this for a long time. They will hire NPs when PAs price themselves out without experience.

 

Medicine should not be about profit. Medicine should be an ART practiced.

 

Fair wage for fair work. 

 

I don't want an argument with you - this just points out a HUGE generational difference and belief system.

 

The US medical system is messed up enough without salary gouging.

 

This is a strange argument that has nothing to do with an issue at hand. When I was a grad student my stipend was 15500/year and now they make close to 26000. That was about 15 years ago. It is strange to hold gripe that when you started you made 50-60K and now new grads want 90-100. It is life and it is normal. The ceiling is the problem, not the new grad's salary... and the backward thinking of "we would price ourself out" we would do it if we are to make more than 0.85xdoc's salary. Newly minted attendings are not efficient and not experienced. They ask their older colleagues and waste time... same story. Provider salary is DEFINITELY not a reason for a health care issues

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This thread is a good idea. New people need to know what's out there that isn't awful. And discussing salary and benefits is not only legally protected, it's smart. Everybody should do it. I'm on board with that Adam Ruins Everything bit that was posted above. The current hesitation and awkwardness only benefits employers. Especially since I'm currently in a Union (I know, it's weird), it seems fitting to spill as much info as I possibly can...

 

 

- North Central state, medium-sized metro area (think San Diego or Seattle-sized, but with lower Cost of Living)

 

- Union position (fairly unusual, admittedly)

 

- Urgent Care, solo, includes evenings and weekends as well as day hours, depending on clinic

 

- New grads get $56.72/ hour, and that gets bumped up after a couple of years to $58.72/hr (so an experienced PA with a FT schedule would work out to a little more than $122k a year, a new grad would be more like $118k. Not too many people are actually FT, however)

 

- 7 paid all-company holidays/ year

 

- Sick time accrues about 3.5 hours for every pay period, so a full year has about 90 hours of sick time.

 

- Personal holiday: 34 hours a year

 

- Vacation: 1 hour accrued for every 24 hours worked; you can bank these up depending on your FTE to a max level of 2x some factor I don't remember. It's about 85 hours a year for FT, so we could call it 10 paid vacation days plus 7 paid holidays plus 4 paid personal holidays = about 21 days a year, not counting sick time.

 

- CME is another separate category. About $2000/ year, and CME is a separate form of time off, I think 5 days a year.

 

- They don't pay my annual state license renewal or my DEA every 7 years.

 

- Health coverage is 100% covered, for me alone. With my family would be a bit more. Malpractice is covered, including tail.

 

My new job will be a better deal in most ways, and that's in Family Practice.

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