Pushed around by NCCPA

[j-ste]

I am wondering how many of us are tired of being pushed around by the NCCPA? The time for change has come. This 10 year recertifiation is crap if it comes with the projects and self assessment, crazy. I have a problem with recertifiation at all. It proves only that someone can pass a standardized test on a wide breadth of medicine. Doesn't make sense for at least 1/2 the profession as we are in specialties. Coming out of school one should have to get certified but after that CME and modules and NOT GETTING FIRED because you suck, should be enough. The NCCPA had a big scoring error on the PANRE, They are taking no responsibility, they are only reimbursing for out of pocket expenses, not for any vacation or earned time one might have used to go to a review course or study, or any of one's personal time that they spent studying to save their career when in fact they had already passed the stupid test. They are being bullies. They charge an extra $50 when you don't have your CME done or recorded before June 30th of your 2 yr cycle, but when it comes to paying for their mistake they screw you. Here the math, 80,000 PA's x $80/yr = $6,400,000 plus some pay the extra $50, add the recertifiation 80,000 PA's x $350 every 6 yrs = $28,000,000 or about 4.7 million a year, that's 11.1 million a year !!!!!!!!! And they do what for us? I don't think they legitimize me in any way, my work speaks form itself and I have never been fired and like many of us am lucky to be so appreciated by the patients I manage.

 

Why not a second agency that can certify PA's? The AAPA should have a separate division and certify PA's. Why should the NCCPA have a monopoly on certifying and recertifiation? The NCCPA is nothing more then some corporate scum getting rich off us and making our life/career's more difficult. Time for change.

[Neuro1]

Well HI THERE !!!! I started a thread about this very thing last month, and it died a quick death,

while ppl on these forums seem more interested in debating what a good starting salary for a PA

out of school might be....... just sayin'

 

Give me a break on this NCCPA "stuff"

 

Even my boss says, "I don't see why PA's put up with this. They should start a Grass Roots movement to end it."

 

"They are bullies"

Yes, you sure got that right.

When are we going to all get angry enough to say "this is enough"?

WE ARE BOARD CERTIFIED PROVIDERS.

We no longer have to "prove" that we can pass a test, what, so we can

"move around to other specialties if we want"????

What a load of BS, as if good training doesn't enable us to do that already,

UGH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I feel like a lonely voice here

[Neuro1]

Oh, and don't get too excited, in only one or two days,

this will be on page two and you won't even be able to find it.....

 

:-)

[TWR]

Can you hear me clapping???

[HMtoPA]

Don't doctors and NP's have to rectify as well? I had to do so as an EMT. I guess I don't see what the big deal is.

[physasst]

Don't doctors and NP's have to rectify as well? I had to do so as an EMT. I guess I don't see what the big deal is.

 

Yes, they do. And they are independent licensing bodies as well. Other bodies have had scoring errors as well. The NBME had an error in 2004 on the USMLE exams IIRC. They didn't reimburse anyone. I think to be honest, that the NCCPA has gone farther to try and help with this situation than most others.

 

Virtually every physician has to re-certify, most on a 10 year cycle, although I am aware that a few specialties do not.

 

AAPA is an advocacy organization, not a certifying body.

[brookspa]

I may be slightly in error but...NPs require cme but not recert to maintain lic. MDs do not requite retesting...execpt in theit field of specialty, not to keep their MD. Many states do not even require CME to maintain their RN. Just send money..at least they are honest in their goals.

[HMtoPA]

According to this, they need to rectify every 5 years: http://www.aanpcertification.org/ptistore/control/index.

 

I didn't look very closely at it, though. It could be that it's not a mandatory certification?

 

In any case, I don't see the harm in having to demonstrate a minimum baseline of knowledge every few years. Some folks working in specialties perhaps worry that they may have lost some of their primary care knowledge, but then you have others who oppose specialty certification because it limits lateral mobility to other areas of medicine. So what's the answer? The only way to preserve the generalist nature of the profession is to certify that PA's are maintaining their generalist knowledge, and the only way to do that is through a generalized exam, no?

 

I think it's only a matter of time before the CAQ becomes de facto specialty certification, then y'all will have two tests to deal with every x years. :P

[ssiegelpa]

I just asked two NPs that I work with and they state that test taking is usually optional. The only time it may be mandatory is if you fail to complete the required amount on CMEs for that recertification cycle. Otherwise recertification is only through CMEs.

[EMEDPA]

fnp's can also take 2 exams when they graduate, either leads to a cert so many folks take both...then never again....

[EMEDPA]

nope. paying twice as many dues to support your profession maybe...:)

[HopefulPA]

The NPs I know only HAVE to recert if they lapse on their CMEs otherwise smooth sailing. If you want the NCCPA to change got to show them how to they can replace the money lost in recert. So who here would be willing to pay more for the privledge of logging your own CMEs. So it cost what $80 Q 2yrs? (so in 6 yrs that is 240+350recert= 590) What if it was $200 Q2yrs? (in 6 years that is$600). I am not even inculding the "late" fee if you don't log by June 30th.

 

What about increasing the amount of CMEs? How about 150 CME (75-I; 75-II) every two years but no recert.

 

We can't just say we don't want to recert anymore? Ya got to replace the $$ and be willing to maybe increase the requirements to keeping Cert. To me I would gladly be willing to pay a higher fee to log CMEs (and even more CMEs) to not have to recert Q6yrs.

[j-ste]

No, that is not the only way. Sounds like you don't value your time very much. " where is the harm....." let me tell you, first, scoring errors like what just happened. People's lives where turned upside down because of that, second, the test is simple regurgitation, if I close my eyes and guess on every question I'll get 20-25% right, many of the questions are ridiculous. Third, Its in the workplace that one shows everyday that they have the knowledge and skills to do their job, if not then they get fired. Fourth, The resources today, you can run a code with an app on your iPhone.

 

Why do we need to preserve the generalist nature of the profession? Wake up, 1/2 of us are specialized. Maybe we should continue to evolve. NP's have a much better model.

 

I say "we" because I appreciate my profession but don't like being treated like cattle, you say "y'all" and it seems your ignorant with only half the facts

[j-ste]

Hopeful PA, I agree, That is more on par with the NP model, it's a better model.

[HMtoPA]

I say "we" because I appreciate my profession but don't like being treated like cattle, you say "y'all" and it seems your ignorant with only half the facts

 

Love how the grown-ups on this board always make it personal.

 

If you think that simply not being fired from your present job is good enough to prove your worth as a PA, good for you. I happen to disagree. More importantly, the NCCPA disagrees. Enjoy the recert process.

[physasst]

No, that is not the only way. Sounds like you don't value your time very much. " where is the harm....." let me tell you, first, scoring errors like what just happened. People's lives where turned upside down because of that, second, the test is simple regurgitation, if I close my eyes and guess on every question I'll get 20-25% right, many of the questions are ridiculous. Third, Its in the workplace that one shows everyday that they have the knowledge and skills to do their job, if not then they get fired. Fourth, The resources today, you can run a code with an app on your iPhone.

 

Why do we need to preserve the generalist nature of the profession? Wake up, 1/2 of us are specialized. Maybe we should continue to evolve. NP's have a much better model.

 

I say "we" because I appreciate my profession but don't like being treated like cattle, you say "y'all" and it seems your ignorant with only half the facts

 

Again, scoring errors have occured with other testing bodies. Usually due to an Angoff Method score reset (to ensure an adequate failure rate). We are generalists, not specialists. It doesn't matter whether you work in a specialty or not. If you are a PA in orthopedics, you are not board certified to do Orthopedic Surgery, ergo, you are NOT a specialist. I would like to see the recert move to a ten year cycle, but the state medical boards (MOST require NCCPA certification in order to practice, although not all do) will never agree to allowing us to not have a recertification process. The NP's are licensed under the Nursing Board, and therefore have greater input into their "CEU" and recertification process. That is not our situation. We don't have that power, and as long as we remain under the domain of the state medical boards, it's not likely to change.

 

I feel horrible for those that were affected by the recent errors, but by my calculations, it only affected 2.5% of PA's, and NO ONE lost their certification.

 

Bottom line is, some recertification requirement, through a testing process (be it orals, practicals, comps, writtens, etc.) is here to stay in the PA profession.

 

Also, personally, I would fight any movement to establish specialty only examinations for PA's. 47% of all practicing PA's have changed their specialty at least once in their career (Some of us have done it twice)...because of this, PA's are likely the most valuable provider workforce commodity secondary to their capacity for mobilization. I cannot ever see any reason to endanger that ability.

[EMEDPA]

Also, personally, I would fight any movement to establish specialty only examinations for PA's. 47% of all practicing PA's have changed their specialty at least once in their career (Some of us have done it twice)...because of this, PA's are likely the most valuable provider workforce commodity secondary to their capacity for mobilization. I cannot ever see any reason to endanger that ability.

 

while In understand that mobility within the profession is one positive aspect to pa practice, the reality is that the joint commission and hospital bodies are making this harder to do every yr.

To get credentialed to do procedures you have to show that you have already done them. many places do not like to teach, they just want an "IR PA" or an EM PA who can hit the ground running from day 1. you and I could probably get any em job in the country at this point but outside of primary care many jobs would be closed to us because docs want an experienced provider who can do xyz day 1. hospitals don't want us doing procedures without being credentialed so it's hard to get new privileges for prostate biopsies or ultrasound guided procedures, etc. my facility wants 800 documented and precepted u/s studies to be credentialed. unless you did them in residency it ain't happening. many of our older docs aren't even credentialed to do fast exams. we have 1 pa doing u/s out of 16 and he is an rdms from before pa school.

. we are being railroaded into specialty residencies and specialty exams and I think eventually the options for pa will be primary care right out of school or do a residency for any specialty that is not fp/im/peds/ob.

[Neuro1]

while In understand that mobility within the profession is one positive aspect to pa practice, the reality is that the joint commission and hospital bodies are making this harder to do every yr.

To get credentialed to do procedures you have to show that you have already done them. many places do not like to teach, they just want an "IR PA" or an EM PA who can hit the ground running from day 1. you and I could probably get any em job in the country at this point but outside of primary care many jobs would be closed to us because docs want an experienced provider who can do xyz day 1. hospitals don't want us doing procedures without being credentialed so it's hard to get new privileges for prostate biopsies or ultrasound guided procedures, etc. my facility wants 800 documented and precepted u/s studies to be credentialed. unless you did them in residency it ain't happening. many of our older docs aren't even credentialed to do fast exams. we have 1 pa doing u/s out of 16 and he is an rdms from before pa school.

. we are being railroaded into specialty residencies and specialty exams and I think eventually the options for pa will be primary care right out of school or do a residency for any specialty that is not fp/im/peds/ob.

 

This is something to think about.

 

And I mean this with all due respect, but

if you are currently a PA student who has NEVER recertified (or perhaps has never experienced the PANCE)

then although your input is considered, let's wait until you are actually set up for recertification

before you insist that some of us "enjoy the recert process"

Which is neither fun, nor funny, nor cheap, especially for those of us who have done it more than once

and have practiced in specialties for YEARS.....

[HMtoPA]

Here's something else to think about (with all due respect, of course):

 

2 new users with less than 20 posts combined, ALL of which follow the "down with the NCCPA" theme. I get it. They screwed up scoring a test. I would be pretty hot in that situation, too. But $**t happens and then you move on. Waging a mini-smear campaign (complete with threats of a class-action lawsuit!) on a public forum against your national certifying body doesn't seem particularly professional nor productive. Granted, the process may be in need of improvement, it may cost too much, etc., but my main point was that I don't see the problem with recertification in theory (vs. the "I never got fired" model, which doesn't really hold anyone to a standard).

 

Flame away.

[LIPPER]

If you choose to go back and look at previous threads you'll find there was a lot of vitriol and righteous speech about the shortcomings of nccpa and the flawed test. Much was made by those ultimately banned from the site, and some from others with multiple screen-names..

 

In the end its all died down and nothing has come from any of it. And nothing will come from this latest set of rants as well... An annoyance at best.

[LIPPER]

Third, Its in the workplace that one shows everyday that they have the knowledge and skills to do their job,

 

facts

well if that were the case, doctors wouldn't have to recert for their boards... You'd also be arguing for virtually any licensing board for any profession.

if I close my eyes and guess on every question I'll get 20-25% right, many of the questions are ridiculous.

and of course were this the case actually applying your skill to the test, passing it would be a forgone conclusion and likely you'd not be making this such an issue.

[Neuro1]

Here's something else to think about (with all due respect, of course):

 

2 new users with less than 20 posts combined, ALL of which follow the "down with the NCCPA" theme. I get it. They screwed up scoring a test. I would be pretty hot in that situation, too. But $**t happens and then you move on. Waging a mini-smear campaign (complete with threats of a class-action lawsuit!) on a public forum against your national certifying body doesn't seem particularly professional nor productive. Granted, the process may be in need of improvement, it may cost too much, etc., but my main point was that I don't see the problem with recertification in theory (vs. the "I never got fired" model, which doesn't really hold anyone to a standard).

 

Flame away.

 

No. I am not going to bother.

 

I believe after over 20 years as a PA-C

and multiple (passed) PANRE exams

I have perhaps earned MY RIGHT to feel the way

I do about recertifying,

Nobody else has to feel the way I do, that is fine.

I was hoping for at least a discussion among peers,

with all due respect for differences in opinion.

MY opinions come from actual experience with the process,

if others, who have not been involved in the process feel it is fine, then Fair enough.

If others WHO HAVE been involved in the recertifying process feel it is fine,

then I am interested in finding out why as well.

And that is Fair enough too.

I am against recertification on many levels, but more than that, opposed to

extending the process to 10 years which includes CME, Projects, and Exam.

Which of course, will cost more.

As always, we are all entitled to our opinions,

even if we have ill feelings toward our National Certifying Body.

 

I signed on here in 2006,

because that is when a colleage told me about this forum,

whether I have only a handful of posts

is neither here nor there, I don't have much to contribute

to most threads here and don't visit much, in truth, because of how these

threads degenerate or just get lost because of lack of interest, I guess.

(many threads don't interest me as well.

PA's have been debating name change as long as I have been a PA,

and NP's are still around and still will be long after I am retired,

but let the discussions continue !!! )

 

Enjoy your fun on this forum, and all the best with your PANCE and future PANRE'S !

[j-ste]

Thank you Neuro1, I couldnt say it any better.

 

I will add that I thought that recertification with the PANRE was subpar before the Most recent scoring error. To say sh*t happens I agree ( I worked ED and now neurosurg and see spontaneous SAH weekly, not a fun picture, and no I am no better or worse person than you because of what I do or what I have done), but I like to try to minimize risk and crappy outcomes.

 

I don't think being able to keep one's job and not being fired is the answer but I do believe that Modules and CME are a better way. Just my opinion. Maybe they should have pathway 2 again so that there is another option that might be better suited for some PA's.

 

Last to Lipper, we are not not doctors so comparing us to them and being board certified is apples to oranges, I think because we are mid level providers/practitioners comparing us to other mid level providers is more apples to apples. Again about applying my skills and passing the test, not a problem, but there are better ways.

[j-ste]

Annoyance.... Really Lipper? Did you know anyone who was affected by the latest scoring error? If so ask them how it felt, and whether they would want it to happen again. To say nothing has come of it is a little righteous and insulting to PA's and the NCCPA, thousands of dollars were reimbursed, The Board of Trustees of the NCCPA, as well as other high level officers from the NCCPA spent many many hours examining and discussing the error, workers at the NCCPA were held accountable, that is for starters. You are correct to say some things have not changed, yes the NCCPA is a very strong and powerful organization.

 

Last, I believe the President of the NCCPA, Janet Lathrop and Sheila Mauldin, VP of exam development and administration, have taken this error very seriously and to heart.

[physasst]

 

Last to Lipper, we are not not doctors so comparing us to them and being board certified is apples to oranges, I think because we are mid level providers/practitioners comparing us to other mid level providers is more apples to apples. Again about applying my skills and passing the test, not a problem, but there are better ways.

 

Actually, I think that we as a profession need to HIGHLIGHT our continuing education requirements and recertification cycle. Both of which are superior to the NP process. Instead of trying to get rid of it, I think we should strengthen it.

 

I do think that we should move to a ten year cycle instead of six. I'm not bothered by the requirement for a quality study, although I recognize that many are...(BTW, that requirement has already been scrapped because of such stiff opposition)......

 

But then I also think that our dues for the AAPA as well as the cost of the PANRE are a joke. If we really want to have advocacy power, and better representation, out dues should be more than double what they are now....