dm123 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I didn't realize there was such an epidemic since the PANRE change.It seems that all the discussion here about what is appropriate testing only supports specialty certification. I don't think abandoning exam recert is the way to go since there is a physician model for that. Perhaps a 10 yr cycle w/o ALL the hoops to jump through. Asking PAs who specalize to go back and take a generalist exam (even if it is 60%) is like asking docs to take the step III every 10 yrs. What is the physician model like? Do they totally lose their ability to practice? Is it for all docs are just a few specialities or sub-specialities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosby1 Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 i took the surgery exam. and to be honest, i couldn't tell which were the surgery questions and which were the medical questions. i questioned whether or not i even received the correct exam. a call to the nccpa and a 6 word answer: "yes, you received the correct exam". not, "we'll check into it" or "we've had some recent complaints about the new exam". i still question whether i sat for the right exam. before i received my exam score, i filed a grievance because of questionable test center conditions; the grievance was of course promptly denied. i just filed an appeal. i'm sure i won't get anywhere with this organization. all i want is to re-sit for the exam and not have it count against me as a re-take. i thought after being in cardiac surgery for 25 years, the surgery portion of the exam wouldn't be all that bad. i guess a question where they ask you to look a ONE slice of an abdominal CT and make a dx counts as a surgery question. make a dx from one slice of a CT scan???? TOTALLY RIDICULOUS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinksfan68 Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Ok I took the primary care version in the state of PA. I remember having that question however because I recalled how unfair it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosby1 Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 Ok I took the primary care version in the state of PA. I remember having that question however because I recalled how unfair it was. just more proof that this exam is invalid. what primary care PA would ever be expected to read a CT scan and come up with a dx??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMA79 Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Has anyone contacted their state licensing board re: the validity of the PANRE, particularly in those states that require the "C"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosby1 Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 i just sent an email to the president of our state association yesterday. he said he had heard from other PA's here that had not passed recently and he was going to contact the nccpa to see if he could obtain any insight or info. i'll post back if i hear anything from him. this sounds to me like it's a widespread issue. the problem is going up against the nccpa; how to do it, can it be done, will it get any results? or are we just completely at the mercy of this multi-million dollar "non-profit" organization? (if you haven't seen it, take a look at my previous post for a link to their financials...it's very interesting how much money they have/make off of us as a profession) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleanne Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 If anyone on here from KY has failed the PANRE send me a private message and I can get you in touch with our state association president or you can go to the website kentuckypa.org for the information. Maybe if you all start at a grass roots level with our state associations we can get something done... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smrem Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 anyone fail in ohio....I work for the Cleveland Clinic and am trying to get in touch with our head PA and see if she has any ideas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aprillh Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 How interesting... I had an email from the NCCPA asking my opinion on how they are doing. Here it is. My reply is posted below. Thank you for contacting NCCPA. As part of our ongoing effort to ensure excellence in all that we do, please click the link below and complete the brief survey about your recent contact with NCCPA. Your feedback will guide our efforts in refining the services that we currently offer and developing new services to meet your needs. Thank you, NCCPA My reply: There have been numerous reports of people failing the "new" PANRE and when they contact the NCCPA they are given canned answers with no real motivation by the NCCPA to look into the problem. This is extremely alarming for those of us who are scheduled to take the PANRE next year. What changes have been made to the PANRE? Why is the NCCPA not forthcoming with real answers as to what changed? What will be done about it? There is an obvious monopoly here and we are forced to pay your fees to retake the test. The people who have failed are seasoned PAs with many years of experience who have passed the PANRE in prior years with a wide margin. Why all of a sudden, after studying for weeks and months, are they failing? I am sure I will not receive a reply to my comments but please realize there are many very concerned PAs who would like some answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosby1 Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 There have been numerous reports of people failing the "new" PANRE and when they contact the NCCPA they are given canned answers with no real motivation by the NCCPA to look into the problem. This is extremely alarming for those of us who are scheduled to take the PANRE next year. What changes have been made to the PANRE? Why is the NCCPA not forthcoming with real answers as to what changed? What will be done about it? There is an obvious monopoly here and we are forced to pay your fees to retake the test. The people who have failed are seasoned PAs with many years of experience who have passed the PANRE in prior years with a wide margin. Why all of a sudden, after studying for weeks and months, are they failing? I am sure I will not receive a reply to my comments but please realize there are many very concerned PAs who would like some answers. Excellent response!! I would encourage everyone to respond to the nccpa with a similar letter or even copy/paste this one. from the nccpa mission statement: "The National Commission on Certification of Physician Assistants is dedicated to serving the interest of the public." Note that they are NOT dedicated to serving the needs or the interests of the PA's that support this organization to the tune of $15,000,000 per year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aprillh Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 What generated this survey is a visit to the NCCPA site. After following these threads, I logged in to see when I am due to recertify (2012!). The next day I got the email. I would encourage everyone to log into their NCCPA account and reply to the survey email you receive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosby1 Posted October 2, 2011 Author Share Posted October 2, 2011 i was able to obtain the following information: supposedly there will be a brief explanation forthcoming from NCCPA in the next couple weeks that will shed some light as to what is going on with the PANRE. As would be expected, the test is extensively studied and all questions undergo a rigorous evaluation before they are included in the exam. Once a test is made and distributed, the failure rate decreases with each subsequent year. The NCCPA factors in an expected failure rate of something like 2-4%, but the failure rate approaches zero over the course of several years. I'm not sure why this would be, unless people are discussing the exam and the questions and everyone becomes familiar with what's being tested. it will be interesting to see if the nccpa actually does release any type of statement regarding this. To my knowledge, they have NEVER done so in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 i was able to obtain the following information: supposedly there will be a brief explanation forthcoming from NCCPA in the next couple weeks that will shed some light as to what is going on with the PANRE. As would be expected, the test is extensively studied and all questions undergo a rigorous evaluation before they are included in the exam. Once a test is made and distributed, the failure rate decreases with each subsequent year. The NCCPA factors in an expected failure rate of something like 2-4%, but the failure rate approaches zero over the course of several years. I'm not sure why this would be, unless people are discussing the exam and the questions and everyone becomes familiar with what's being tested. it will be interesting to see if the nccpa actually does release any type of statement regarding this. To my knowledge, they have NEVER done so in the past. I don't know if the NCCPA uses the Angoff method, but that might be what this is related to. You can't have pass rates at 100%, it would essentially invalidate the PANRE. Using the Angoff method, various testing organizations establish a cut off score. IOW, it attempts to answer, what is passing? The concern is always, for every recertification exam or testing method, not what to do with those who will fail, and not what to do with those who will obviously pass....the concern is the borderline students. The NCCPA's response to you makes sense. It's a phenomenon seen virtually everywhere, where pass rates increase with time. People become more comfortable with the tests, review courses get better, the printed review books get better, etc. Mean scores also rise. This however, affects the cut off point, as using the Angoff method, you need to re-set your minimum passing score.... There might be an email blast....so I'd stay tuned. For more on Angoff, check out this: http://www.paeaonline.org/ht/action/GetDocumentAction/i/110194 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMA79 Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Hmmm. If it is based on an increasing pass rate why hasn't this happened in the past? Until June were they using the same PANRE I first took 25 yrs ago? Or is it a matter of it sucks to be you if you have the misfortune to take a new version of the PANRE? How does the Angoff Method explain the scores in the 0 percentile for people that have passed mult. PANREs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 My bet is, and I don't know this for sure, but they have likely reset the PANRE in the past. I don't know though. What it will capture with a reset by using Angoff, will be borderline passers... So, hypothetically, let's say you have passed the PANRE 3 times previously with scores of 370-380 every time and a passing score of 350 needed. With a reset, you might not pass as you might be below their reset level. But those who are scoring well, with historical 450+ scores shouldn't have anything to worry about. Again, I have no idea if this is what happened, but it would make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 So this is a sincere question. I've been listening to this chatter about the PANRE for a couple of months. I hear these horror stories of really smart PAs who have worked in general medicine for years if not decades saying it was a bizarre test and failing it horribly. So then there are people like me who work in focused medicine specialties, who did very little prep (relatively speaking) and like I've said before, I have no claim of being smarter than the average PA, take the test recently (2 weeks ago) and find the test easy, straight forward and reasonable . . . and scored 671. Do you believe that 1) not only does the test vary but it varies in huge ways between an easy test like mine and the nightmare test that others have alluded to, or 2) there was a true error in scoring for some people (a few have said that they, like me, thought it was easy and scored horribly)? What is going on here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dm123 Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I spoke a few months back with a psych PhD involved in administering tests to measure allied health professionals (not PAs). There was no singular, uniform tests. The test progressed somewhat like a family tree, with the computer program picking test questions as the tester progressed along. A correct answer would take you down one pathway, a wrong answer another. Say for instance, you answered four peds questions in a row correctly, the computerized program would assume you had a good grip on peds and move on to hearts. Or, conversely depending on how the test was set up, you get four basic peds questions correct then default to more complex peds questions. If you answered 2 right and two wrong, the difficulty level stayed flat. Being a lefty, I never thought I would long for the days of the #2 pencils, test booklets, and answer sheets that were always set up for righties. Back then at least everyone got the same test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAAdmission Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 NCCPA has become a cancer. They would have a much better reputation if there was some sense of transparency in anything they did. I also find it very hypocritical of them to say that the PANCE/PANRE are the be all and end all to identify qualified PAs, and then suddenly finding value in specialty exams. If I work in ER, either make me take a primary care exam or an ER exam, not both. PAs should petition USMLE to start offering PA exams. They are more transparent, the exams would be better quality, and if they drew questions from the USMLE pool, it would put us on a better footing to someday "bridge" into medical school... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneValgene Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 PAs should petition USMLE to start offering PA exams. They are more transparent, the exams would be better quality, and if they drew questions from the USMLE pool, it would put us on a better footing to someday "bridge" into medical school... this is interesting, and i think it's an excellent idea. the NBME used to administer the PA certifying exams back in the day anyways (http://www.pahx.org/period04.html); it'd be nice if the NBME took over the responsibility again from the NCCPA. they could create a new certifying exam that is a blend of step 2CK and step 3. might help to differentiate the profession from other midlevels/NPs, and perhaps give us a stronger public perception as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
celtic33 Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 crosby1, great thread. It is all about the money .... do the math, 79,000 PA's, spending (at leat $350) every 6 years .... that is over 27 million dollars over the 6 years span. Plus we spend money to log our CME every 2 years to a tune of over 6 million dollars ... so the NCCPA gets over 7 million per year, just from the practicing PA's, not even including the the new grads and they have to spend $450 per PANCE and those that take it more than once. Where the F does all that money go? Things will never change. They have way too much money. They can hire 50 lobbist to fight for them in congress to keep this going. The PANRE is a joke. To lipper, you are a NCCPA Crony .... I am glad you passed with flying colors. There are a lot of people on this forum who have been PA's a lot longer than you and most likely much better clinicians than you that have had a problem with this PANRE as something has clearly changed since June of this year. If you don't see that than you are an idi0t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 crosby1, great thread. It is all about the money .... do the math, 79,000 PA's, spending (at leat $350) every 6 years .... that is over 27 million dollars over the 6 years span. Plus we spend money to log our CME every 2 years to a tune of over 6 million dollars ... so the NCCPA gets over 7 million per year, just from the practicing PA's, not even including the the new grads and they have to spend $450 per PANCE and those that take it more than once. Where the F does all that money go? Yellow # 2 Pencils lots and lots of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosby1 Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 in case anyone missed this earlier, here is a financial statement from the nccpa from 2008. note the income of ~ $15,000,000 and the assets of ~ $14,000,000. also note the income of the highest paid board member of $240,718 with an expense account of $9600. http://www.faqs.org/tax-exempt/GA/National-Commission-On-Certification-Of-Physicians-Assist.html remember: this is all paid for with YOUR MONEY!!!!! also, there are 16 nccpa board members of which ONLY 6 are PA'S!! WE, AS A PROFESSION, SHOULD BE OUTRAGED!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dm123 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Take note of contributions to employee benefit plans & deferred compensation plans that are in addition to salary and expense accounts. The head honcho's is in excess of $27,000.00. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIPPER Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 To lipper, you are a NCCPA Crony .... I am glad you passed with flying colors. There are a lot of people on this forum who have been PA's a lot longer than you and most likely much better clinicians than you that have had a problem with this PANRE as something has clearly changed since June of this year. If you don't see that than you are an idi0t. Listen up Blowsox33, quit crying. And don't blame me for your problems. You don't know me ;) An earlier post discusses the Angoff Method http://www.paeaonline.org/ht/action/...ction/i/110194 Lastly, I went back and looked at my score interpretation from 2005. The curve meant <7% failed. Perhaps the NCCPA decided to raise the bar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMA79 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Can we get past the arcing contest? Since the NCCPA isn't talking we don't know if they are using the Angoff Mehtod or not. The problem isn't that some people are failing PANRE, they are failing by large margins. They are scoring in the 0 percentile after passing mult PANREs. If NCCPA decided to raise the bar why not tell us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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