LIPPER Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 The “C” was originally intended to be a minimum standard' date=' not an elitist standard[/quote'] I don't think this has been established yet. When multiple PAs who have been working for 10-20 or more years fail what is called a proficiency exam, something is terribly wrong. We need an accurate definition of "multiple". I definitely agree there needs to be a review of the system. Now' date=' the requirements have gotten completely out of hand, serving not the PA community,[/quote'] They are trying to serve the profession, by insuring core competency. The problem is there are doubts about the process. This is what needs to be verified...to insure confidence in the system. What makes PAs so unique in medicine that they have to be held to a higher standard? We can not argue being held to a higher standard on one hand, then on other forums discuss Masters and Doctorate degrees, competition with NP's in ordr to compete and mantain a competative advantage to employment. The recertification is not a new concept. For the majority of us it existed prior to admission to our program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopefulPA Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 I wonder if there are any trolls on this board, claiming to be PA's who have failed and are railing against the system. If this board is representative of the quantity of those who have not passed (given overall membership on the board with the relatively few here who have claimed to have failed).... and If one takes a good look at the scoring breakdown of PANRE/PANCE...I would argue that things may actually be in line. The exam is described as a generalist exam. That objective is clearly stated. The NCCPA practice exams correlate well with the actual test. I can recall but ONE obscure and irrelevant question on my PANRE (related to genetics). Missing a minor # of zebra-type questions should not induce failure. Lastly. Why exactly did those (like me) wait until the 6th year to recert?... $350 is a drop in the bucket compared to the potential lost income of losing certification/job status. Lipper I disagree. If any of the people that are failing are trolls they are pretty knowledgeable about our profession to be trolls. Second I have been a member of this forum for almost 6 years now and not until this July have I ever seen a posting about failing the PANRE. While I am sure there have always been a some that have failed the PANRE in the past, the tsnami of recent failures that are congruent with the change in testing cannot be mere coincidence. And the lack of tranparency of NCCPA is very distrubing and something needs to be done. It would be great to not have to recert every 6 yrs like every other certified profession, maintain CMEs , heck make it double the amount of CMEs to maintain your cert would be fine with me. Excuse my ignorance but there must be bylaws somewhere that give that state about the recertifying what do they say? I think the only way any change is going to occur with this obvious PANRE problem is legal action! All I hear from those that are probably unfairly failing the PANRE is they will roll over, pay the $$ to retest and study more which does nothing to fix the issue. Those that are failing need to unite and take action as a group! I really hope that is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryfran123 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 Lipper, I have been a member of this forum since it's first year. In that amount of time I have RARELY seen 1 or 2 pasts re: failing the PANRE. Now, since July and the new exam there are double digit postings of people failing. More importantly, many of these posts are from PA-C's that have taken this exam at least 2 times previously without issue. Do you think that all of sudden they have become less knowledgable, poorer test takers, or all of sudden have become incompetent? Your statement that more experienced PA's should be "at least as booksmart" as new grad PA's seems a bit hard core to me. Really, you think a PA with 20+ years experience, working in a sub-specialty for most of their career, should be as book smart as a new PA who has spent the last 2-4years of their life having information drilled into them repeatedly, tested repeatedly on said information, including prep for the PANCE to get that "C" I consider myself a pretty well rounded PA even though I have been in a subspecialty for the last 19+ years of my 24 year career. I am not delusional enough to think I can compete with a new grad when it comes to "all around" book knowledge on topics such as Peds, ObGYN for example. Of note, one of the local PA programs just had 20 students get PERFECT scores on PANCE. I know I can't remotely compete with them on the book smarts. So, it seems to me that the only new variable in this equation is NOT the myriad of experienced PA's that have passed PANRE easily on multiple occasssion, the new variable in this equation is the new PANRE. The theory of Ockham's Razor lends itself to pointing at the PANRE being the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosby1 Posted September 25, 2011 Author Share Posted September 25, 2011 I think the only way any change is going to occur with this obvious PANRE problem is legal action! All I hear from those that are probably unfairly failing the PANRE is they will roll over, pay the $$ to retest and study more which does nothing to fix the issue. Those that are failing need to unite and take action as a group! it seems to me that since the nccpa has the ultimate control over the exam, and since they answer to nobody, and since there are no checks and balances in the system, we are at their mercy. we pay them what they want; we take their exam over and over; we put up with their BS. they could easily charge $1000 or more for the exam, and we would pay. exactly what choice do we have? NONE AT ALL. legal action? what kind of legal action? do we sue them? do we force them to be more open about the exam and the results? what exactly are you suggesting? how do you "fix an issue" with an organization that is completely blind to what is going on and will not release any information whatsoever? surely, there's a PA here that has an attorney in the family (husband, wife, brother, sister, mother, father) that could give some guidance on this?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dm123 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 By multiple, I agree it's just a vague term based on recent reports on the internet. It isn't a subject that lends itself to one on one personal conversation. I would think most would be ashamed to admit failure, even somewhat anonymously on the internet. Makes me think the problem COULD be much bigger. At the very least, NCCPA needs to explain itself. My comment about minimum standards, I'll admit, is based on memory. I don't recall any states, in 1981 that made passage of the PANCE or continued passage of the PANRE as a requirement to work as a PA. Seems like less than half the states recognized PAs as a profession at all. RNs, Army medics, or other medically trained professionals did much of the work now done by PAs, and did it quite competently. They were called "doctor trained", and for a few years could challenge the PANCE to become PAs if they wanted the title. Florida, the first state I worked at, had no prescription law for PAs. Wrote all hospital orders as a VO, without actually contacting my SP. I had a pad of pre-sign scripts, if needed tucked safely away. Some RNs that served the same roll, did and carried the same. I'm not saying we need to go back to that sort of thing, however. A nurse, who worked for a heart surgeon, was trained to harvest the saphernous vein during bypass surgery. The point I'm trying to make here is continued passing of the PANRE, based on MY experience doesn't fulfill its mission statement and needs significant modification. I've worked in 4 different urgent cares, 1 ER, and for a surgeon. ALL had different protocols and I had to learn how the big boss wanted things done. All required a different level and type of knowledge. Even the urgent cares had a different set of needed skills. One, would not let males do pelvic exams. I went to another that did. If you don't do it you forget stuff. The PANRE didn't help me adapt one bit. If it were up to me, I'd file it in circular file 13. Experience, and the dependent nature of PAs should be enough. As far as degree creep, I've never thought that served any purpose unless you want to teach. It is good to challenge ourselves. I do get a little peeved sometimes at the one-upmanship of the nursing profession and their alphabet soup splash of degrees and various special certifications on their name tags. I'm more impressed with how they work than the ability to carry around a placard on their chest of acronyms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dm123 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 it seems to me that since the nccpa has the ultimate control over the exam, and since they answer to nobody, and since there are no checks and balances in the system, we are at their mercy. we pay them what they want; we take their exam over and over; we put up with their BS. they could easily charge $1000 or more for the exam, and we would pay. exactly what choice do we have? NONE AT ALL. legal action? what kind of legal action? do we sue them? do we force them to be more open about the exam and the results? what exactly are you suggesting? how do you "fix an issue" with an organization that is completely blind to what is going on and will not release any information whatsoever? surely, there's a PA here that has an attorney in the family (husband, wife, brother, sister, mother, father) that could give some guidance on this?? My brother-in-law is a (spit/cough) attorney and doesn't advertise on TV. I'll ask him and see if he has any ideas. I'm just guessing but unless there is an issue like age discrimination, playing politics by writing the various state medical boards, the PA teaching programs, and in general raising as big a stink to anyone that will listen would be the way to go. Trouble is trouble seems to have only started in June '11. It might take time for a head of steam to be built up. A letter to the state board in your home state couldn't hurt, I would think. The AAPA seems mostly neutered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosby1 Posted September 25, 2011 Author Share Posted September 25, 2011 asking your brother-in-law would be great! i think it would be a good place to start...just to get some idea of how this might work or if something like this is even feasible. as you can tell, i'm pretty fired up about all this. i'm convinced that we as a profession need to stand up the nccpa and get some answers. as an aside, i found this on the USMLE website. it would seem like THEY, unlike our "wonderful" organization, have no problem publishing their numbers!! (SORRY, THE TABLE WON'T FORMAT CORRECTLY HERE. THE 1ST 2 COLUMNS ARE 2008/2009 RESULTS AND THE NEXT 2 COLUMNS ARE 2009/2010 RESULTS WITH THE NUMBER TAKING THE EXAM AND THE PERCENT THAT PASSED) USMLE STEP 2 RESULTS 2009/2010 [TABLE] [TR] [/TR] [TR] [/TR] [TR] [/TR] [TR] [/TR] [TR] [TD=colspan: 5] 2008/2009 2009/2010 Examinees from US/Canadian Schools #Tested %Passing #Tested %Passing[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]MD Degree[/TD] [TD]17,842[/TD] [TD]96%[/TD] [TD]18,218[/TD] [TD]96%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1st Takers[/TD] [TD]17,060[/TD] [TD]97%[/TD] [TD]17,493[/TD] [TD]97%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Repeaters**[/TD] [TD]782[/TD] [TD]72%[/TD] [TD]725[/TD] [TD]68%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]DO Degree[/TD] [TD]829[/TD] [TD]90%[/TD] [TD]1,002[/TD] [TD]91%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1st Takers[/TD] [TD]806[/TD] [TD]90%[/TD] [TD]982[/TD] [TD]92%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Repeaters**[/TD] [TD]23[/TD] [TD]78%[/TD] [TD]20[/TD] [TD]70%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Total US/Canadian[/TD] [TD]18,671[/TD] [TD]95%[/TD] [TD]19,220[/TD] [TD]96%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=colspan: 5] Examinees from Non-US/Canadian Schools[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1st Takers[/TD] [TD]11,868[/TD] [TD]83%[/TD] [TD]11,422[/TD] [TD]83%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Repeaters**[/TD] [TD]2,865[/TD] [TD]54%[/TD] [TD]2,484[/TD] [TD]52%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Total non-US/Canadian[/TD] [TD]14,733[/TD] [TD]78%[/TD] [TD]13,906[/TD] [TD]78%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=colspan: 5] * Data for Step 2 CK are provided for examinees tested during the period of July 1 to June 30. ** Repeaters represents examinations given, not number of examinees.[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dm123 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 I am not exactly how to research tax filings but suspect NCCPA is some sort of 501 organization. As such their tax returns legal are a matter of public record. It would be interesting to see where the money goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosby1 Posted September 25, 2011 Author Share Posted September 25, 2011 a quick google search turned up this website with detailed info on the financials of the nccpa. it's a bit dated (2008) but take a look: http://www.faqs.org/tax-exempt/GA/National-Commission-On-Certification-Of-Physicians-Assist.html there are some very interesting figures in this report. like the fact that in 2008 their income was $15,438,357, and the income of other organizations performing "similar types of work" was $1,930,975. for an organization that has only 35 employees, they seem to do quite well financially. i wonder what they actually DO with all that money?? [TABLE] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] it's also interesting that the top-earning board member made $240,718 in 2008 and had an expense account of $9600. maybe i'll quit my PA job and go work for the nccpa. seems like a pretty lucrative gig to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lingeringmind Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 I took it for the 5th time in June. As with the previous 4 times, I felt it had almost zero relevance to my job. I got an email in 48hrs indicating not only did I pass again, I passed handily. I have never worked in ID and outside of some general ID principles have a limited fund of knowledge in that area of medicine. Yet, I scored 100% in Infectious Disease. Further proof the test has zero validity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopefulPA Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 it seems to me that since the nccpa has the ultimate control over the exam, and since they answer to nobody, and since there are no checks and balances in the system, we are at their mercy. we pay them what they want; we take their exam over and over; we put up with their BS. they could easily charge $1000 or more for the exam, and we would pay. exactly what choice do we have? NONE AT ALL. legal action? what kind of legal action? do we sue them? do we force them to be more open about the exam and the results? what exactly are you suggesting? how do you "fix an issue" with an organization that is completely blind to what is going on and will not release any information whatsoever? surely, there's a PA here that has an attorney in the family (husband, wife, brother, sister, mother, father) that could give some guidance on this?? I am not really sure what kind of action but I am willing to bet that there is a case here. If a unreliable, test with questionable validity (which this PANRE seems to be indicating) is standing in the way of one earning an income in thier said highly trained profession there is some sort of legal ground to stand on. On another related subject.....on what authority does the NCCPA operate? Does it come from AAPA? Is there a bylaw of our national organization that states that NCCPA is responsible for PANCE/PANRE/CME monitoring? I doubt anything will make it to court but I can pretty much gaurentee that individual Joe Schmoe PA knocking on NCCPA's door is likely to be slammed shot. But John Q Lawyer, esq with a class action of a couple of dozen PAs will get results even if the legal basis is shakey. If the NCCPA realizes their fat cash cow is in jeopardy and that the PAs aren't going to take getting scr#$ed they will make changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopefulPA Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 I am not really sure what kind of action but I am willing to bet that there is a case here. If a unreliable, test with questionable validity (which this PANRE seems to be indicating) is standing in the way of one earning an income in thier said highly trained profession there is some sort of legal ground to stand on. Just as an FYI the courts have ruled Non-Compete agreements invalid if they unreasonably limit one from earning an income in their said profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosby1 Posted September 25, 2011 Author Share Posted September 25, 2011 Just as an FYI the courts have ruled Non-Compete agreements invalid if they unreasonably limit one from earning an income in their said profession. i'm not sure a non-compete agreement is along the same lines as a recertifying examination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dm123 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 The money involved is kind of stomach churning and disgusting. Looks like they have a tidy sum in reserves equal to a whole year of expenses. Why? Looks like they are also playing the stock market with our money too. The AAPA, from a link from your site, isn't doing to bad either and looks like info was from 2005. http://www.faqs.org/tax-exempt/VA/American-Academy-Of-Physician-Assistants-Inc.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosby1 Posted September 25, 2011 Author Share Posted September 25, 2011 The AAPA, from a link from your site, isn't doing to bad either and looks like info was from 2005. http://www.faqs.org/tax-exempt/VA/Am...tants-Inc.htm l another one of the many reasons i discontinued my AAPA membership years ago. i encourage others to do the same. it's just another useless, money-making, bureaucratic organization that doesn't serve its members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyBoy Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Has anyone received any word from their friendly PA state association? Like Hopeful asked above, I really wonder what is the exact legal relationship between the NCCPA and AAPA. They can't hide behind a generic letter forever..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Okay, I think I'm living in a parallel universe right now. These postings scared the heck out of me. I work in a sub-speciality and have so for 30 years. I took the exam a week ago after only reading the Van Rhee book once. I spent maybe 20 hours studying because I'm overwhelmed with business stuff right now. I did not do any review course, but I did take the practice exam once. I found the exam itself to be very reasonable and straight forward and consistent with the practice exam and Van Rhee book. And the last key point, anyone here can vouch for, I am not the sharpest tool in the shed. You guys talk about things I've never heard of. So here is the confusing part. I PASSED, and did so with a wide margin. So, did I get a different test than everyone else? I'm only sharing this for those who are preparing to take the exam and are getting scared from these negative posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleanne Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I was also scared to death after reading the posts, but passed with a really good margin in August. According to their website there are different versions of the test...and it appears with different difficulty levels. I had alot of obscure questions ( 3 urological emergency questions???) and there were alot of straight forward questions. Maybe I'm a good guesser or the test was curved significantly. I really was shocked by my score because I didn't think I did nearly as well as I did. I really think it depends on the version of the test you get. For those of you who have failed, I wonder if any are from the same state. If so, you should get together and contact your state PA organization...have them send out an email to other PAs in your state to see if they have also failed. There may be more of you out there who just aren't aware of this forum. If enough people in your state have failed maybe your state organization can contact aapa/nccpa on your behalf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleanne Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 also has anyone contacted the magazine Advance for PAs and NPs? I know they have a forum on their website, might be worth posting there and/or contacting the editorial staff...maybe a story they could look into... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d2305 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Mike, I hope I get your test, and not the hard one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookspa Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 A number of years ago i think i remember a new cert. org. tried to start up. I think it was in Nevada. I also think it was ramrodded by a phsician ( which may be why it did not fly) there was much outcry and i ad mit, that at the time i thought it ws not a good idea for our profession. I will admit that i was wrong. I now recognize how non repsonsive NCCPA is to our profession and how heavehanded and non supportative they oar of the very ones making their rich and lavish lifestyle possible. mAny millions of dollars a year is storng incentive to remain nontransparent and unresponsive. Why should the change? Bear Bryant (football coach-BAMA) once was playing MIss state in a homecomming game at Bryant- Denny in Tuscaloosa. He had the QB call an end around flicker 3 three times in a row, successfully. A commentator asked him when he would change this play? He said he would change the play when it quit working. They will only change when it quit s working for them. Ill stand with you for change. Not too dangerous for me. Ga does not require you maintain your cert. after your initial licensing. but i am willing to NOT SEND nccpa ANY MORE MONEY. (Ga has about 2,500 pa's) its a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardiacspa Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 paleanne, what test did you take - the primary care, adult med or surgery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleanne Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I took the primary care exam....I do wonder if the folks failing are taking the adult med and surgery exams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I took the primary care exam....I do wonder if the folks failing are taking the adult med and surgery exams? I took the Adult Med exam and passed it pretty easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I didn't realize there was such an epidemic since the PANRE change. It seems that all the discussion here about what is appropriate testing only supports specialty certification. I don't think abandoning exam recert is the way to go since there is a physician model for that. Perhaps a 10 yr cycle w/o ALL the hoops to jump through. Asking PAs who specalize to go back and take a generalist exam (even if it is 60%) is like asking docs to take the step III every 10 yrs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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