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the canadians get it....


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from pa applicant page at the university of toronto:

Applicants are required to have experience as a Health Care Professional in good standing with minimum 1680 hours (1 year full-time) of direct patient contact in a professional setting (i.e. direct involvement in treatment and/or care planning and delivery for patients in hospitals, medical office/clinic, nursing home, care home or other care facilities).

Clinical Experience that cannot be attributed to the 1680 hours of professional experience includes; volunteer or observership hours, clerical positions in healthcare and positions such as medical laboratory technician etc.

 

interesting program. minimal relevant academic prereqs, awards a BS. looks very similar to pa programs of 15+ years ago in the U.S.

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from pa applicant page at the university of toronto:

Applicants are required to have experience as a Health Care Professional in good standing with minimum 1680 hours (1 year full-time) of direct patient contact in a professional setting (i.e. direct involvement in treatment and/or care planning and delivery for patients in hospitals, medical office/clinic, nursing home, care home or other care facilities).

Clinical Experience that cannot be attributed to the 1680 hours of professional experience includes; volunteer or observership hours, clerical positions in healthcare and positions such as medical laboratory technician etc.

 

interesting program. minimal relevant academic prereqs, awards a BS. looks very similar to pa programs of 15+ years ago in the U.S.

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I agree with most of it but not all of the Clinical Experience requirements. If you had this as a uniform measure, it would practically disallow all laboratory trained personnel from pursuing a career as a PA. How else would they get their hours in? I understand clerical work, shadowing, and volunteer experience not counting but Medical Lab Scientists are bachelor prepared healthcare professionals who have a strong clinical science background. I realize the direct patient contact is not there but I'm a little surprised they get tossed into the same boat with the others when they bring so much more to the table.

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I agree with most of it but not all of the Clinical Experience requirements. If you had this as a uniform measure, it would practically disallow all laboratory trained personnel from pursuing a career as a PA. How else would they get their hours in? I understand clerical work, shadowing, and volunteer experience not counting but Medical Lab Scientists are bachelor prepared healthcare professionals who have a strong clinical science background. I realize the direct patient contact is not there but I'm a little surprised they get tossed into the same boat with the others when they bring so much more to the table.

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Speaking as a non-lab guy before PA school (paramedic), I can vouch for the MLS guys deserving credit for their lab experience in applying to PA school. We had a couple of med tech's in my class, and they were ahead of the curve with a lot of the coursework. Their great understanding of the physiology gave them a big head start, especially in internal medicine. My roommate was a former MLS, and he helped teach me a lot about things like heme-onc, nephrology, etc; made a fair trade while I taught him ACLS and EKG interpretation.

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Speaking as a non-lab guy before PA school (paramedic), I can vouch for the MLS guys deserving credit for their lab experience in applying to PA school. We had a couple of med tech's in my class, and they were ahead of the curve with a lot of the coursework. Their great understanding of the physiology gave them a big head start, especially in internal medicine. My roommate was a former MLS, and he helped teach me a lot about things like heme-onc, nephrology, etc; made a fair trade while I taught him ACLS and EKG interpretation.

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There has been a lot of sword rattling in Ontario by the RN Association of Ontario about the lack of health care experience PA students have prior to getting into the programs - this may be to alleviate some of the BS that's being spread around. Also, it's their program and they can set the benchmarks as they wish to get the candidates they want - they have to draw a line somewhere, and that's where they did it. Yes, it strikes me as short sighted, but U of T is a little snotty :-).

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There has been a lot of sword rattling in Ontario by the RN Association of Ontario about the lack of health care experience PA students have prior to getting into the programs - this may be to alleviate some of the BS that's being spread around. Also, it's their program and they can set the benchmarks as they wish to get the candidates they want - they have to draw a line somewhere, and that's where they did it. Yes, it strikes me as short sighted, but U of T is a little snotty :-).

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you probably hit the nail on the head... they want to insulate themselves from criticism from nurses. i think that PA's have thier work cut out for them expanding up there because of how unions are so strong in canada. on one side they have the respected doctors, on the other, union nurses. they are in between without much of a voice compared to the nursing megaphone.

 

Yep and may have quite resonable concluded that allowing young, fresh faced, neophytes who have never touched real-live patients before won't help them win that battle...

 

Recognition, entrenchment, growth...

 

First establish and seek recognition which is where they are now...

 

Second entrench yourselves and expand your scope of practice...

 

Finally grow your ranks exponentially for a stronger power base...

 

During the growth stage... the requirements will likely loosen to allow some of the previously excluded groups.

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you probably hit the nail on the head... they want to insulate themselves from criticism from nurses. i think that PA's have thier work cut out for them expanding up there because of how unions are so strong in canada. on one side they have the respected doctors, on the other, union nurses. they are in between without much of a voice compared to the nursing megaphone.

 

Yep and may have quite resonable concluded that allowing young, fresh faced, neophytes who have never touched real-live patients before won't help them win that battle...

 

Recognition, entrenchment, growth...

 

First establish and seek recognition which is where they are now...

 

Second entrench yourselves and expand your scope of practice...

 

Finally grow your ranks exponentially for a stronger power base...

 

During the growth stage... the requirements will likely loosen to allow some of the previously excluded groups.

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Dude, you're preaching to the choir here...my MLT's at work have saved my butt, and consequently my patients', more often than I can count because something they found stimulated them to either toss an extra test in or call and ask if I'd like something else based on this result.

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Dude, you're preaching to the choir here...my MLT's at work have saved my butt, and consequently my patients', more often than I can count because something they found stimulated them to either toss an extra test in or call and ask if I'd like something else based on this result.

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DUDE....!! We get it...!!!

Sigh...

 

We get that YOU feel that because YOU are a MLT... CANADA should bow down to the supreme medical/diagnostic wizardry of MLTs... aquiese and just hand them PA/MD/DO credentials...

 

Yeah... they CANADA shouldn't be able to set THEIR OWN admit criteria at their programs because YOU think they are short sighted... and YOU know better and whats good for them. We get it..!!!

 

im about to take the plunge into nursing, and im confident that if i had to choose between my cna skills, or my lab and bowstaff skills... my lab and bowstaff skills will be the bag of tricks that i draw from more often than my cna skills by far.

 

Then you were either a crappy CNA or simply do NOT understand the field of nursing.

99.99999% of nurses WORLDWIDE aren't running coulters, plating samples and spinning diffs, or even drawing blood. They are touching people, talking to families and teaching patients. As a former CNA, LPN and CCRN, I'm thinking maybe you would be better served if you spend more time on AllNurse to get a better grasp of this and less here before starting nursing school.

 

when 70 percent or more of a provider's diagnosis hinges on the results you recieve from the lab

 

Not often the case... as most of the time its the "constellation of signs and symptoms" and pattern recognition that the diagnosis "hinges on." The lab is often simply used as a comfirmatory tool or to follow the progress or decline of a disposition. The most common labs orderd in the USA are: BMP, CBC, UA, LFT, Lipid, Thyroid, HgbA1c.

 

While I appreciate your position on excluding MLTs from certain academic programs, overselling your point detracts from your assertions and this argument you insist on having with folks who are NOT on the admissions boards of the various CANADIAN universities that have started PA programs. The simple fact of the matter seems to be that CANADA has seen fit to exclude certain CANADIAN citizens in certain professions that they don't feel they should admit into their programs. It is their right to do so just as it is the right of US PA programs to include those same professions and exclude others.

 

Contrarian

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DUDE....!! We get it...!!!

Sigh...

 

We get that YOU feel that because YOU are a MLT... CANADA should bow down to the supreme medical/diagnostic wizardry of MLTs... aquiese and just hand them PA/MD/DO credentials...

 

Yeah... they CANADA shouldn't be able to set THEIR OWN admit criteria at their programs because YOU think they are short sighted... and YOU know better and whats good for them. We get it..!!!

 

im about to take the plunge into nursing, and im confident that if i had to choose between my cna skills, or my lab and bowstaff skills... my lab and bowstaff skills will be the bag of tricks that i draw from more often than my cna skills by far.

 

Then you were either a crappy CNA or simply do NOT understand the field of nursing.

99.99999% of nurses WORLDWIDE aren't running coulters, plating samples and spinning diffs, or even drawing blood. They are touching people, talking to families and teaching patients. As a former CNA, LPN and CCRN, I'm thinking maybe you would be better served if you spend more time on AllNurse to get a better grasp of this and less here before starting nursing school.

 

when 70 percent or more of a provider's diagnosis hinges on the results you recieve from the lab

 

Not often the case... as most of the time its the "constellation of signs and symptoms" and pattern recognition that the diagnosis "hinges on." The lab is often simply used as a comfirmatory tool or to follow the progress or decline of a disposition. The most common labs orderd in the USA are: BMP, CBC, UA, LFT, Lipid, Thyroid, HgbA1c.

 

While I appreciate your position on excluding MLTs from certain academic programs, overselling your point detracts from your assertions and this argument you insist on having with folks who are NOT on the admissions boards of the various CANADIAN universities that have started PA programs. The simple fact of the matter seems to be that CANADA has seen fit to exclude certain CANADIAN citizens in certain professions that they don't feel they should admit into their programs. It is their right to do so just as it is the right of US PA programs to include those same professions and exclude others.

 

Contrarian

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most nurses have no lab background. but most nurses do deal with tests and diagnostic information, and thats where lab knowlege comes in handy. i spend a lot of time dealing with questions from nurses, and i can see how having a knack for the lab side of healthcare can be beneficial.

 

 

I agree that it could/would/is beneficial... where I disagree is that its more beneficial than the bedside experience of actually touching people, talking to families and teaching patients. The average CNA with significant experience at bedside has these skills because this is all they do.

 

im about to take the plunge into nursing, and im confident that if i had to choose between my cna skills, or my lab and bowstaff skills... my lab and bowstaff skills will be the bag of tricks that i draw from more often than my cna skills by far.

 

The actual "providers"... you know, PAs, NPs, MDs, DOs... interpret the labs and decide the validity of them (reality testing) and the next course of action. So as a nurse, its great to know the normal ranges (which are usually printed on every lab result report) and to know what values that are out of range MAY mean, but its more inportant as a bedside nurse (99% of nursing) to simply report those labs and get back to touching people, talking to families and teaching patients.

 

Obviously, this changes based upon specialty and even then, this "handy" lab knowledge only determines the urgency in which one needs to contact the patients provider when normal and/or abnormal results are reported from the lab.

 

YMMV

 

Contrarian

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most nurses have no lab background. but most nurses do deal with tests and diagnostic information, and thats where lab knowlege comes in handy. i spend a lot of time dealing with questions from nurses, and i can see how having a knack for the lab side of healthcare can be beneficial.

 

 

I agree that it could/would/is beneficial... where I disagree is that its more beneficial than the bedside experience of actually touching people, talking to families and teaching patients. The average CNA with significant experience at bedside has these skills because this is all they do.

 

im about to take the plunge into nursing, and im confident that if i had to choose between my cna skills, or my lab and bowstaff skills... my lab and bowstaff skills will be the bag of tricks that i draw from more often than my cna skills by far.

 

The actual "providers"... you know, PAs, NPs, MDs, DOs... interpret the labs and decide the validity of them (reality testing) and the next course of action. So as a nurse, its great to know the normal ranges (which are usually printed on every lab result report) and to know what values that are out of range MAY mean, but its more inportant as a bedside nurse (99% of nursing) to simply report those labs and get back to touching people, talking to families and teaching patients.

 

Obviously, this changes based upon specialty and even then, this "handy" lab knowledge only determines the urgency in which one needs to contact the patients provider when normal and/or abnormal results are reported from the lab.

 

YMMV

 

Contrarian

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Nurses get into trouble OFTEN for overstepping their bounds, "interpreting/mis-interpreting" stuff then telling the patient.

Now the provider has to clean it all up... or worse the "therapeutic relationship" is strained because the nurse thought they were diagnosticians.

Worse the patient has a poor/unfavorable outcome and attempts to sue the provider... all based upon info interpreted and relayed by someone who wasn't trained and/or authorized to do so...

 

Happens often and nurses do get diciplined by state boards for this.

 

YMMV

 

Contrarian

 

btw... my last 2 students (apr and may) were MLTs and did GREAT... !!!

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Nurses get into trouble OFTEN for overstepping their bounds, "interpreting/mis-interpreting" stuff then telling the patient.

Now the provider has to clean it all up... or worse the "therapeutic relationship" is strained because the nurse thought they were diagnosticians.

Worse the patient has a poor/unfavorable outcome and attempts to sue the provider... all based upon info interpreted and relayed by someone who wasn't trained and/or authorized to do so...

 

Happens often and nurses do get diciplined by state boards for this.

 

YMMV

 

Contrarian

 

btw... my last 2 students (apr and may) were MLTs and did GREAT... !!!

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