Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 17, 2011 Moderator Share Posted August 17, 2011 The days of the 6 month program are over. good. I never understood how programs did it in less than a yr....and the extra credential of an a.s. will help with professional recognition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 ... and the extra credential of an a.s. will help with professional recognition. Isn't that the "Holy Grail" argument used first by NP educators... then by PA educators to justify degree creep...??? Soooo.... Right now... MOST EMS in this country... nationwide is volunteer, especially so in rural America. How will requiring degrees (AAS and/or Bachelors) help get a EMT-P out their working in podunk...??? Please explain how placing additional barriers will help Uncle Fester and Leroy out back caught under the combine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaepora Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Yes, thank you! It's a tricky thing, degree creep. Having a higher level, standardized degree is helpful when advancing the profession in some regards, but the flip side of the coin is that less people are able to get into the profession because of the $$ required to get the degree. The NPs looooooove being able to say they have a higher degree than PAs. That's a part of the big push for the DNP. But they have been smart about it also. You can start out with an ASN and do a bridge to a BSN while working. Then while working you can obtain the Masters (soon DNP) while working. It makes it much easier for people to obtain the degree when they can work and make money during the program. Pretty soon everything will be a doctorate. Only young new graduates who are privileged enough to have it paid for by their parents will be PAs, NPs, medics, etc. Somewhat exaggerated but you get the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 17, 2011 Moderator Share Posted August 17, 2011 Isn't that the "Holy Grail" argument used first by NP educators... then by PA educators to justify degree creep...??? Soooo.... Right now... MOST EMS in this country... nationwide is volunteer, especially so in rural America. How will requiring degrees (AAS and/or Bachelors) help get a EMT-P out their working in podunk...??? Please explain how placing additional barriers will help Uncle Fester and Leroy out back caught under the combine... most ems responders in the u.s. are emt-b or emt-b + IV. requiring a degree for PARAMEDICS does nothing to the basics and intermediates helping poor leroy. it WILL help get rid of all the " it's a 6 mo program, they aren't very skilled" arguements..... and give them appropriate standing when compared to a.s. nurses and r.t.'s. there are currently more folks who want to get into programs than program slots. requiring a 2 yr program will convince all the "yokels" in ems to do something else with their time...like nascar or the fire service....billy bob under the combine will always have a medic coming to help. the question is how good will that medic be. I have no problem with a tighter selection process to get into ems or finish the program just like I have no problem with asking pa programs to require 2000+ hrs of hce. cert. to a.s. is a big deal. I would argue after that almost anything else is fluff. pa's don't need a bs, they certainly don't need an ms. most of what we (pa's) have done is because we are in direct competition with np's and for whatever reason they felt the need to up the ante. if the entry level cert for rn's and rt's went to bs medics would probably do that too. I think the next trend in pa education will be residencies that grant a doctorate like the baylor program is already doing. all this to be on equal degree footing with np's with significantly less training. DScPAEM. DScPAortho, etc joe sixpack the senator only knows that np's have doctorates and pa's are "assistants" with lower level degrees(ask physasst about getting turned away at legislator's offices because he is "only an assistant") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireguy Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I had a similar opinion of myself when I was a paramedic like Aliclark. Then I went and got my MPH in epidemiology and then my MPAS. I lost count of the number of times I had a cold realization that I should have killed somebody as a medic because of what I didnt know, and what I didnt know that I didnt know. Truly a frightening and enlightening event, every time it happened, and it happened a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookspa Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 common to all in this field.sadly we learn more from our failures that our successes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Upon further review and consideration of my previous posts in this thread... I think I overshot a little bit. So at this time, I'd like to revise my inital assertion that LPN training trumps EMT-P training. After reflection on my personal experiences and training... I think that LPN training is about equal to EMT-P training in difficulty, depth and breadth... the focus is just different. EMT-P training gives Medics the tools to potentially* allow them to become the masters of "Pre-Hospital care, Packaging, Transport" and all that entails. It can prepare them to recognize a potentially life threatening situation, stabilize the patient and transport that patient to more definitive, higher level care for a disposition and treatment planning. LPN training gives Nurses the tools to potentially* allow them to become the masters of "Acute/Long term Care" and all that entails. I can prepare them to recognize a potentially life threatening situation, stabilize the patient, and request transport to more definitive, higher level care for a disposition and treatment planning then ... when stabilized, take care of that patient indefinately. * (note: I wrote "potentially" because we ALL know both "studs" and "duds" exist in EVERY profession as LOTs of professions have plenty of people who never live up to their potential.) The training is equally difficult for various reasons... just different. The notion/Idea of Pre-Hospital care is just "sexier." So I my mind... the hirearchy should look like this: (CNA)--> (MA/EMT-B)--> (EMT-I) --> (EMT-P/LPN) --> (RN) --> (NP/PA) --> (MD/DO) As for the Degree Creep: most ems responders in the u.s. are emt-b or emt-b + IV. requiring a degree for PARAMEDICS does nothing to the basics and intermediates helping poor leroy. Yep... when in reality... we need LOTs more EMT-Ps in those rural, mostly volunteer ambulances. Soo... I really don't understand why you don't see how requiring any degree as a MINIMUM for medic (EMT-P) level training/certification will be a unnecessary barrier to getting more EMT-Ps into those communities. As it stands... those communities are stuck with EMT-B/I level training and hard pressed to get EMT-Ps, NPs/PAs or MD/DOs. Requiring a degree will likely NOT improve this situation. it WILL help get rid of all the " it's a 6 mo program, they aren't very skilled" arguements..... and give them appropriate standing when compared to a.s. nurses and r.t.'s. Nahhh... How has the move to a masters degree helped alleviate these issues for NPs/PAs... ??? The folks that point out the above issues you seem to think this minimum degree will curtail... are usually also the folks that are sophisticated enough to KNOW that a minimum AS... or even a BS in Emergency medical studies (or whatever it will be called) will still be MOSTLY "gen-ed" classes needed to fullfill degree requirements. So NO... those who know... will still know that the paramedic portion of this minimum degree will still be about 6-9 months TOTAL... and the other classes will simply be tuition generating classes. YMMV Contrarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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