F-ing Orgo!!!!! :( :( :(

[EMEDPA]

I'll agree that it is most useful in pharacological settings, but it isn't a bad idea for PAs or MDs to at least have a primative understanding of the activity of drugs at the molecular level beyond -- you take the antibiotic and BAM! infections gone -- or even -- you take the antibiotic and its binds some receptor thingy that makes the cell more permeable to water... Is it absolutely necessary to know? no. But it does help weed students out, and when you listen to pharm reps or read primary literature, you will be all the wiser.

 

 

when you take pharm in pa school they do include the mechanisms of all the drugs and you don't need o-chem to understand it...they give you enough critical info to know how it works and if you need to know the name of the enzyme or the site of action at a cellular level it is included in the course...

[Guest Nashmyers]

My school forces us to have organic chem in the curriculum as pre-pa majors. However many schools dont require this as a pre-req, it's truly unfair because it might make you or break you depending on how you do on the course. If you do bad on it, it's such a heavy weighed grade affecting your science GPA.

[Medicated]

My school forces us to have organic chem in the curriculum as pre-pa majors.

 

You can major in pre-PA?

 

...?

[Guest mattmedwards]

The way I look at things, the more detail you learn something in, the more you are likely to remember the basics. Just say you are learning the steps of glycolysis, kreb cycle, etc.. if you just memorize glucose to pyruvate blah blah you are likely to forget some of the steps along the way down the road. If you are forced to remember all the steps with the enzymes, etc. You probably wont remember all the enzymes, but the basics will be drilled into your head forever.

 

Hey I agree with you on this. The devil is in the details. I can see how knowing the minutae of metabolism, for instance, can be quite useful. Memorizing the name, abbreviations, and structure of every amino acid, B Vitamin, ATP / ADP, NAD / NADH, Nucleic Acid - that seems like overkill.

 

Some professors just demand more than others. Who knows what a letter grade in any given course really represents? I suppose this is why PA schools (should) look at the overall trend in your grades and the kind of things you are doing outside of school.

[willowtree]

Don't lose hope! I got a "C" in O-chem I&II and I still got into four PA schools. Now, my overall science GPA at my undergrad was a 3.3 including the two Cs so I did very well in all my other science classes, O-chem was the only problem. I also got straight As in all the pre-reqs I took after undergrad including an A in biochem which I'm sure helped my application immensely. So, you still have to work hard but don't worry, your dream is still attainable!

[MikeyBoy]

Orgo I&II, learning about insects, and even calculus stunk, but in the end, you have to get through it if you want to break into medicine (well, not necessarily the insect part).

 

...my man Bobo says it the best;

 

[Guest mattmedwards]

Orgo I&II, learning about insects, and even calculus stunk, but in the end, you have to get through it if you want to break into medicine (well, not necessarily the insect part).

 

...my man Bobo says it the best;

 

 

LOL!!! I remember that episode - Hilarious! Seriously that put me in a much better mood. Thank you!

 

PS: If I was the fat woman I would get the gastric bypass ;)

[Hemegroup]

You can major in pre-PA?

 

...?

 

There are a few of these undergrad segue way programs, yep.

[Guest John]

Hey thanks for the encouraging words EMEDPA!

I did well in all my other pre-req's. I just got unlucky this semester with two extremely demanding professors.

 

My ace in the hole though is getting an A in physiology this semester and getting a LOR from the prof. Apparently his LOR's are gold because he is known for having an extremely hard physiology class.

 

I guess the point of orgo chem is to weed people out . . . and if that is the case I am getting a distinct weeded feeling. ;)

 

Ochem is not a weed out class because it is not a requirement for many PA schools. And those PA schools that require it generally don't require a year of it. However, a year of it with labs is required for med school. So, it can be a weed out for med school.

[acozadd]

Ochem is not a weed out class because it is not a requirement for many PA schools. And those PA schools that require it generally don't require a year of it. However, a year of it with labs is required for med school. So, it can be a weed out for med school.

 

 

You are not completely correct. Most PA schools I've researched required a semester of organic chem and a semester of biochem. A few stated they wanted one or the other... but most said both (and most schools require o chem as a pre-req to biochem so the point is moot). A large number of med schools are also in this 1 and 1 category of organic chem and biochem, while some still want the traditional 2 semesters of organic chem. I've had this discussion with many friends that are applying to med school.

 

So, a good majority of both med schools and PA schools require 1 o chem and 1 biochem. To say that all med schools want 2 semesters of o chem is incorrect.

[Guest John]

You are not completely correct. Most PA schools I've researched required a semester of organic chem and a semester of biochem. A few stated they wanted one or the other... but most said both (and most schools require o chem as a pre-req to biochem so the point is moot). A large number of med schools are also in this 1 and 1 category of organic chem and biochem, while some still want the traditional 2 semesters of organic chem. I've had this discussion with many friends that are applying to med school.

 

So, a good majority of both med schools and PA schools require 1 o chem and 1 biochem. To say that all med schools want 2 semesters of o chem is incorrect.

 

I went to PA school before going to med school. The majority of med schools require 2 semesters of Ochem with lab related courses. Also, many med schools are now requiring biochem IN ADDITION to the 1 year of ochem. I know at my former med school, they added biochem and cell and molecular bio in addition to having to take the 1 year ochem series.

 

There are a great deal of students that understood biochem without organic chem. Ochem may help with biochem, but wasn't necessary for many people. I didn't take ochem before biochem. I took biochem first because a TA in chem suggested that it can help one understand ochem. I eventually discovered that this was true for me because I majored in chem.

 

There are a couple of PA schools that don't require either biochem or ochem. At least when I went to PA school this was the case.

[bradtPA]

Ochem may help with biochem, but wasn't necessary for many people. I didn't take ochem before biochem.

 

I actually found cell bio a better help for biochem than organic.....

[Guest mattmedwards]

Yes Biochem is definitely useful, but straight up organic chem seems like overkill to me.

 

Somebody mentioned that some med schools are requiring Orgo chem, biochem, and cell bio. On the other hand, there's some med schools going in the opposite direction: requiring fewer science courses.

 

University of Minnesota's MED 2010 pre-req's look similar to most PA programs:

 

http://www.meded.umn.edu/admissions/prerequisites.php

[acozadd]

Yes Biochem is definitely useful, but straight up organic chem seems like overkill to me.

 

Somebody mentioned that some med schools are requiring Orgo chem, biochem, and cell bio. On the other hand, there's some med schools going in the opposite direction: requiring fewer science courses.

 

University of Minnesota's MED 2010 pre-req's look similar to most PA programs:

 

http://www.meded.umn.edu/admissions/prerequisites.php

 

I rencently had a discussion with some of my med school bound friends (we are all getting our applications ready) and they had similar findings. The pre-reqs between med/pa school are nearly identical. THe only glaring difference is the absence of physics at most PA schools, though most undergrad science degrees require it anyway.

[EMPAhopeful]

and most/all med school's don't require microbiology or anatomy/physiology, though not all PA schools require A&P.

[MCHAD]

Ochem is not a weed out class because it is not a requirement for many PA schools. And those PA schools that require it generally don't require a year of it. However, a year of it with labs is required for med school. So, it can be a weed out for med school.

 

Not entirely true, many PA programs require Biochem, and to take biochem at most schools you have to have had at least the first half of O-Chem.

 

BTW-why in the world did you go to PA school just to go to med school after?

[EMPAhopeful]

yeah i hate that schools "require" organic chem 1 for biochem. luckily my school doesn't check to make sure you have the pre-reqs, so i'm finishing up biochem this semester w/o ochem 1. Organic is definitely unnecessary for biochemistry.

[Guest John]

Yes Biochem is definitely useful, but straight up organic chem seems like overkill to me.

 

Somebody mentioned that some med schools are requiring Orgo chem, biochem, and cell bio. On the other hand, there's some med schools going in the opposite direction: requiring fewer science courses.

 

University of Minnesota's MED 2010 pre-req's look similar to most PA programs:

 

http://www.meded.umn.edu/admissions/prerequisites.php

 

This school is definitely not the norm. Med schools generally require: 1 year biology with labs, 1 year gchem with labs, 1 year ochem with labs, 1 year physics with labs. Some have the additional requirements of a year of calculus, some require biochem, and a few like my former school (JABSOM) added cell and molecular biology.

 

In addition to some PA schools not requiring organic chem, some that do do not even require the lab portions for organic chem. Since I had applied to quite a number of PA programs and later many, many MD programs, I still say that the prereqs are quite different for both.

 

A good example: Duke University's PA program only requires 2 Chemistry courses. It is up to the student to choose. The MAJORITY of med schools do not have this flexibility.

 

Another big requirement is the MCAT.

[Hemegroup]

I loved O-Chem and I loved the lab even more. Chemistry is awesome because it is absolute truth, there is no room for conjecture or argument, it just is what it is. I think O-Chem teaches a good deal that can be applied to Biochemistry, altho I would agree that it's probably not completely necessary as a prereq for the course. Still, it teaches competence in language, association and scientific/conceptual thinking, as well as attention to detail, fine motor control, and precision in measurements.

[melvel]

Man I must have gone to the wrong school! Lol to take biochem during my undergrad you had to take both orgo 1 AND 2 plus the labs! Also the medical school (not the PA school which is still a bachelor's!!) required a year of bio plus labs, a year of physics, a year of gen chem plus labs, a year of orgo plus labs, biochem, and the MCAT. Oh well! I thought biochem was a huge help to my overall understanding of metabolic pathways and how the cell works, but the only preparation I got from orgo 1 and 2 was a two week lecture on the basic structures of carbohydrates, lipids, and amino acids. So overall orgo 1 and 2 didn't really prepare me that well because in biochem they give you everything to memorize and are expected to know basic chemical reactions mechanics (which you learn in gen chem anyways).

[Medicated]

you know, I don't anticipate EVER needing to know SN1, SN2, E1, and E2 reactions again in my life. EVER. I hated O-chem because I couldn't then (and still don't) see the applicability. Gen chem was necessary, biochem was great, but o-chem was just a serious pain in the rear.

 

I gotta disagree with Hemegroup - I don't think the "absolute truth" argument applies to organic chemistry. My main problem with o-chem was that it was too abstract. There were a number of possible mechanisms and answers, but I could never seem to come up with the one they were looking for. No class has frustrated me more than o-chem. If I ever find myself in an organic chemistry lecture again, I will assume that I've died and gone to hell. ;)

[Guest mattmedwards]

O-Chem is universally known to be HARD.

I got an A in Principle of Chem and A's and B's in my other pre-reqs.

 

This Orgo/Biochem course I'm taking now though is insane. One week before the final, he told he us he wants us to memorize all the steps of glycolysis and the citric acid cycle. We have to memorize every chemical structure involved, the names of the chemicals, and the names of the enzymes. This is in addition to all the other structures and rxns we had to memorize throughout the course.

 

Just an observation: people who like OChem tend to do well in it and think it is essential to be a PA. People who dislike the class tend to do poorly and insist it isn't necessary.

 

@Hemegroup: I used to think the same about science. Rock solid truth, no arguments. Now I tend to think of science as having its own kind of superstition based on reductionism. Reductionism seeks to explain the universe by breaking it into smaller components and describing the interactions between those components. But what happens when you break nature down to its smallest bit but still can't explain how it works?

 

Food for thought: What is a particle? What exactly is a "force," and for that matter, how exactly does the force of gravity work? There is currently no way to resolve relativity with quantum mechanics, leaving MAJOR holes in our FUNDAMENTAL concept of how the universe works. In fact, there has never been a complete, watertight theory of everything.

[MCHAD]

Well, for those of you that have to learn metabolic pathways in O-Chem, that can only help in biochem! look at the upside!!!!

 

BTW-Mattmedwards, i aggree with your post, Quantum physics is a trip!

[Guest John]

The book "Organic Chemistry as a Second Language" was very helpful. Schaums organic chemistry is good too. You might want to give these books a try. There are a lot of practice problems in Schaums.

[jbizzle07]

Mattmedwards- I was a philosophy major. Science is not nearly as airtight as scientists make it seem. The best scientists understand this. In fact - Ph.D stands for 'Doctor of Philosophy'. Early on all scientists were philosophers primarily, and scientists second. To a certain extent, this is still the case. What scientists do is empirical work built upon other empirical work. They then make a theory...AKA philosophy. They test this theory. Throughout history, scientific truths have been refuted, refined, and tossed out. At its core, this type of work IS philosophy. It's too bad people don't study it much these days, but philosophy is the heart of all academia.

 

J

 

PS - Did you know that the mind-body problem, a problem that has existed since the ancient greeks, has still not been solved? Modern science cannot claim knowledge as to how conscienceness arises from matter (if this is indeed the case).