med school curriculum vs. pa

[Iain1028]

Meaning...in med school you can work. Examples are self-evident:

 

1) Med school attendance is not mandatory.

 

2) Summers off.

 

Much harder curriculum that is for sure, but spread out over 4 years, have known some med students that only go to an occasional class here and there, meaning, I can work!!!! Money!!!

[jcampbell]

Meaning...in med school you can work. Examples are self-evident:

 

1) Med school attendance is not mandatory.

 

2) Summers off.

 

Much harder curriculum that is for sure, but spread out over 4 years, have known some med students that only go to an occasional class here and there, meaning, I can work!!!! Money!!!

Gotcha. You can work while in PA school too but most likely not as much because the days are more filled with class when compared to med school.

[True Anomaly]

As it has been said before, there's only a handful of people on this board who have done both PA and medical school who can accurately comment on the difference. If you look up PACMattM's posts, I'm pretty sure he did post awhile back about the differences.

[primadonna22274]

I agree that really the only reliable assessments of PA vs. medical school can be made by those who have done BOTH.

 

I would include in that vein (most) foreign medical grads who become PAs.

 

But really, having any significant medical experience would make learning more medicine easier, don't you think? so it's hard to compare PA & medical school curricula when one has done both--because neither of those educational experiences can be independently evaluated, but will always be viewed through the lens of the other.

 

Really for the rest of us it's all so much conjecture. I've read lots of med school curricula but I haven't attended. I think there are some PA programs that allow for part-time work, but mine (and Iain's) actively discouraged it, and some even forbid it. In most cases it's just not practical and that's what makes it even more expensive because we still have to eat and have a place to crash at the end of the day, however humble it may be.

 

To the OP: read PACMattM's old posts, and Bandit's too. Much wisdom and experience there.

[Gordon, PA-C]

Med students get summers off plus non-mandatory attendance = more time to study, have a life, and work a part time job.

 

They only get one summer off (between MS1 and MS2), the rest of the summers they are on clinical rotations.

 

Also, its ridiculous to imply that lots of med students work part time jobs. I'd estimate that its less than 5%. Post an informal poll on studentdoctor.net and I think you'll find similar numbers. Its very rare for them to have the time to work outside of school.

 

BTW, mandatory attendance is stupid. You either know the material and pass the tests or you dont. I'm sick of all schools (PA or otherwise) holding hands like little kindergarten pupils.

[Gordon, PA-C]

We have had some great end of life lectures as well as some patient case scenarios with paid actors in our seminars. And even tho I've worked around my share of AIDS, I still learned something. By the way, Gordon, PA-C (so you say), HIV is rising fastest in the African American female population at the moment, so you might want to adjust the pronoun of who you'd never cry with. Seems you have a bit to learn about up-to-date HIV/AIDS epidemiology, as well as current PA education.

 

:rolleyes: Right, because my example implies that its representative of the entire HIV/AIDS population. Way to totally miss the point, guy.

 

If PA schools are implementing the same "charmin-soft" feelgood liberal BS curriculum that the med schools have, and forcing you to cough up 40g to pay for it, then you should ask for your money back.

 

Doing BS "role play" games was NEVER part of the early PA curriculi through which many of us on this forum passed. And I'll put my training up against yours any day of the week pal.

[Gordon, PA-C]

They have to have those classes, since all those med schools don't have students who are as compassionate and empathetic as you are!

 

I'm reminded of a scene in the Matrix where Morpheus is speaking to Neo:

 

Morpheus: Why did I beat you?

 

Neo: You're too strong and fast.

 

Morpheus: (smirking) And you think that the size of my muscles have anything to do with that.....here..... in this place?

 

 

You can play as many role play games or sing campfire songs as much as you want. It wont do a damn thing to make you "more compassionate" or a better healthcare provider.

[Gordon, PA-C]

Let me tell you a story guys.

 

At my work, one of our surgical faculty and I were going to an upcoming lecture about a new technique for staged Norwood correction for HLH from the guy who pioneered it at Hopkins. Anyways we get there a little early, and the auditorium has a med student class in there.

 

We sit in the back row and wait for them to clear out. I wasnt paying attention at first, but I realized this was one of those new fangled "actor role-playing scenarios." The guy was playing an AIDS patient and critiqueing their interview styles one by one. He was giving feedback to one of them, stating that "you didnt make me feel comfortable because you didnt come into my personal space and embrace me as a father would embrace a son. That is your role as the doctor, to drop all barriers and embrace me."

 

Myself and the attending nearly fell out of our chairs laughing. This is what passes for "medical education?" This is a top 10 medical school at an Ivy League university on the eastern seaboard too guys, not some shady rural or FMG program. These med student dorks in their stupid short white coats are dropping 200 large on an "education" to listen to some idiot actor playing an AIDS patient to spout off this crap?

 

I'll take my "old fashioned" PA education any day over that garbage....

[Iain1028]

This type of learning you talk of Gordon, PA-C is called the "Lancaster Assessment Package" and we had to learn this approach to practitioner/patient interaction. I thought it was basically just common sense. Listen to the patient, don't interrupt patient in the first 15-30 seconds, repeat back, and have good eye contact, proper body language, etc...there end of lecture.

 

I think that is what it is called? For people in med school in their very early 20's with no real work experience behind them, I think this could be helpful.

[andersenpa]

You can play as many role play games or sing campfire songs as much as you want. It wont do a damn thing to make you "more compassionate" or a better healthcare provider.

 

I'd have to say you're wrong, at least based on my experience in school. Classes like Issues In Healthcare, Human Sexuality as well as one-on-one interview practice sessions expose many students to a human, less objective side of patient care than is typically presented in regular clinical medicine courses. I took the aforementioned courses w/ fellow PA-S's, NP-S's and other health professions students. The feedback was very strong/positive about the students' experience in these classes.

 

Speaking pejoratively about it doesn't make it any less important. Just because it didn't help you doesn't mean it is not important for others. There are many aspects of core medicine that some students don't need; they don't drop the ABG analysis section b/c the class has some RTs in it.

 

These classes may not, on the whole, play as important a role as auscultation of murmurs or how to treat CAP, but they have a very important role in introducing all sides of pt care to novice clinicians. I'd go even further to say that these classes are all the more important if the incoming PA classes have less HCE.

 

To belittle it because it is too touchy-feely for you is a bit provinical.

[EMEDPA]

Detox, dementia vs delerium, eating disorders, violence detection and counseling ... these are not "fluff" issues in my opinion, certainly not any more than learning about 'Bronchiolitis Obliterans Organizing Pneumonia'.

 

sounds like they have actually added some clinical content to the course in the last 15 yrs. this was all part of clinical med when I was there and BIPC was all about "feelings", etc

pretty much anyone with any prior experience got nothing out of this course because it was all common sense stuff....glad to see they have added some meaningful stuff to the course

[Hemegroup]

Let me tell you a story guys.

 

At my work, one of our surgical faculty and I were going to an upcoming lecture about a new technique for staged Norwood correction for HLH from the guy who pioneered it at Hopkins. Anyways we get there a little early, and the auditorium has a med student class in there.

 

We sit in the back row and wait for them to clear out. I wasnt paying attention at first, but I realized this was one of those new fangled "actor role-playing scenarios." The guy was playing an AIDS patient and critiqueing their interview styles one by one. He was giving feedback to one of them, stating that "you didnt make me feel comfortable because you didnt come into my personal space and embrace me as a father would embrace a son. That is your role as the doctor, to drop all barriers and embrace me."

 

Myself and the attending nearly fell out of our chairs laughing. This is what passes for "medical education?" This is a top 10 medical school at an Ivy League university on the eastern seaboard too guys, not some shady rural or FMG program. These med student dorks in their stupid short white coats are dropping 200 large on an "education" to listen to some idiot actor playing an AIDS patient to spout off this crap?

 

I'll take my "old fashioned" PA education any day over that garbage....

 

We also had feedback from the actor, which I too felt was inappropriate. They weren't a trained medical professional. The student who was the 'practitioner' let the actor cry a bit before intervening (it's like everyone was waiting to see if they could really do it), but she let her carry on for, in my opinion, too long. I spoke up and asked how much the patient knew about HIV, and when asked, they responded, "I don't know, I get pneumonia, right?" I did think that was excellent on their part, and unfortunately the student 'practitioner' was too inexperienced in the subject of HIV/AIDS at that time to be able to handle that. She still just basically 'held her hand', so to speak.

 

What I learned from that experience is to give the patient time to accept the diagnosis. To me, I wanted to jump right in and let them know HIV wasn't a death-sentence, that there were appropriate measures to take. But I didn't know that it's appropriate to just ... sit with them for a few minutes, since the news you've just given them can totally warp their sense of time. I'm thankful for that lesson.

 

I was in a hospital room once when a woman (smoker) in her 50s was told she had emphysema, she was with her husband. The PA I was shadowing didn't stay very long after the diagnosis, but I stayed behind to teach her about some new smoking cessation ideas. Maybe the PA was tired, maybe he was having a bad day, maybe he was sick of smokers crying when they're given bad diagnoses. Who knows.

 

So what situations warrant 'hand-holding'? Who's truly 'innocent' and deserving of consideration? And does it really matter what political party one is affiliated with, as dictating empathy ... or not? Gordon PA-C, I am sure you've had quite a bit more medical training than I, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with your views on handling sensitive situations. I've worked hospice and I've worked AIDS hospice, and I learned a bit along the way. I also volunteered in peds ICU when I was 24 (I'm 38 now) and am not quite sure how you do it. I guess you have a right to be a little hardened ... I know that it sure was a wake-up call for me.

[alisons104]

I find those courses and exercises pointless as well. I would rather be in rotations, learning from my preceptor and real-life situations than watching some actor in a lecture hall. But, to each his own, I guess. As long as they don't saturate our education with this stuff, and stretch it evenly among teaching techniques, I'm happy.

[willowtree]

My professors tell us that PAs learn 80% of the material med students do in half the time...so PA school is definitely hard, just different hard. My med student friends have a big exam every few weeks and go out and have fun between exams, we have two-three exams every week and I think we have a lot less free time. Also, when I took anatomy it was the same class the med students take except it was a few weeks shorter, but the med students took it pass/fail and the PA students received an actual grade for the course...and

[willowtree]

My professors tell us that PAs learn 80% of the material med students do in half the time...so PA school is definitely hard, just different hard. My med student friends have a big exam every few weeks and go out and have fun between exams, we have two-three exams every week and I think we have a lot less free time. Also, when I took anatomy it was the same class the med students take except it was a few weeks shorter, but the med students took it pass/fail and the PA students received an actual grade for the course...and we have to maintain a 2.7 GPA!

[kbtennis]

I believe that med school students face challenges that PA students don't. If I had to take all the PA pre-reqs including two semesters of organic and physics, a semester of calculus, and study for the MCAT, I would be facing burnout by senior year. Plus, nearly every medical school I've looked into requires the prerequisites be taken at a four-year institution and not a community college. Getting into medical school is quite a feat, only to be followed by 4 more years of grueling work and another 3-5 of underpaid, tedious hours as a resident. Maybe medical schools try and pace their students for such a long and difficult road ahead. PA students only have to make it through two difficult years. In my opinion, just knowing the program is only two years long can really boost your resilience. I don't think I could handle four years of medical school at that same pace. Burnout would consume me. The idea of pass/fail classes is probably to reduce feelings of competition. After competing to get into medical school or PA school, I think this is a great idea.

[EMEDPA]

NO pa schools require calculus and only 10% of meschools do....

[Medicated]

I'm sorry, but why do we even feel the need to make this comparison? To validate ourselves to ourselves? We're not competing against MDs, and any MDs who see us as incompetent or a threat are confused at best. I'm figuring out that [favorably] comparing our education to theirs doesn't generally win us many friends. I'm not saying we should berate ourselves, but rather that we ought to leave these comparisons out of the discussion when describing the PA education. It is what it is, and let's leave it at that. Just my opinion...

[crossstr]

I know a local physician who went to PA school got certified and worked a year then decided to go on to medical school. He said minus the first year it pretty easy. He even kept a part time PA job to help pay for school and got out with low loans. I know is anecdotal but he seemed to think they were similar or at least PA school made for good prep. He did state very sternly that nothing can really make the first year "easy" but it did help a lot.

 

That is the closest to a comparison I can give you and that is purely me telling you what i was told.

 

This is exactly what I plan on doing! I'm in my second semester of PA school now -.- but I was hoping to do a residency when I graduated for a year and then go onto medical school but unfortunately I graduate after the residencies start and I don't feel like prolonging my journey to medical school for another year, especially since I'm interested in Neurosurgery and I'll probably be done in my late 30's at this rate.

[andersenpa]

So why occupy a valuable PA school seat if you intend on becoming a physician?

[GeneValgene]

So why occupy a valuable PA school seat if you intend on becoming a physician?

 

very good question

[edwardcarter]

What school do you go to?

 

My own personal opinion, I think anyone who is successful in PA school can definitely succeed in medical school. However, I don't think a med student may necessarily be successful in PA school. The DO's at my school are not required to attend lecture and usually complete their school day around 1 pm. However, PA students are required to attend class from 8 - 5 pm. My friends who are DO's often exclaim, "I don't know how you all do it!" With that being said, we also share several classes with the DO's, so it's not that the material is that much different, it's just a matter of time!

[acozadd]

What school do you go to?

 

Went to the same school as Emerson. We took quite a few courses with the 2nd year med students and when they were done at 12, we would be there til 5. I actually found the med student exams to be easier/more straight forward than the PA exams, though some might disagree. The med students do go into greater detail in the basic sciences their first year, and probably during some of the systems. With that said, I can also say I've done many rotations with med students from multiple programs and most remember none of it, nor does hardcore cell bio, etc. ever come into play in the clinical world. In my personal experience, you could switch the white coats between PA students and most 3rd and 4th year med students and not be able to tell the difference. There are some studly 4th year med students out there that I've run in to that would put most PA and junior med students to shame, but that would be limited to a handful.

 

FWIW.

[Joelseff]

So why occupy a valuable PA school seat if you intend on becoming a physician?

 

This!!!

 

Seems like you planned on medschool all along unless you had an epiphany in your first semester.of pa school? I feel bad for the guy who got a thin envelope in your place....

 

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[bbrown41788]

This!!! Seems like you planned on medschool all along unless you had an epiphany in your first semester.of pa school? I feel bad for the guy who got a thin envelope in your place....Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk

NO KIDDING. does this person live in the same economy as me?!? I can't exactly throw down 100K to get through PA school and it be a stepping stone to more debt...good luck!