Boatswain2PA Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 A physician assistant must practice under the supervision of a physician. Although pysician assistants, or PAs, may be able to perform certain duties on their own, they do this under the authority of their supervising physician. On the other hand, nurse practitioners may have more independence in that they can carry out some tasks in providing healthcare and assistance independently, without supervision by a physician, depending upon state laws, level of education, and additional certifications and qualifications achieved. Correct. But the "independence" achieved by NPs have nothing to do with their competence, or educational pathways, but rather is simply the result of their extensive political power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACdan Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 I have never suggested the two were equal and, realistically, they cannot be. No two PA programs are equal, how could any NP and PA program be equivalent? This is a strawman that you, and others, have built based on my assertations that the education between the two share more similarities than differences. So, please, you may keep your apology to yourself and your invented argument. My god, the solipsism is strong. PA programs, like medical schools, ARE STANDARDIZED under an accrediting body. So yes, there is most certainly equivalency among PA programs and the material taught within them. That standard, that breadth of material and experience, is demonstratably greater than the vast majority of NP programs. With each post you show a greater lack of understanding or a willful ignorance. At this point, you're just making things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db_pavnp Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 I understand that PA programs exhibit "standardization". They are accredited by whatever, they have met certain this and that, and that they are roughly equivalent. But to take that to such an extreme as to suggest no PA program is better or worse than any other is kinda a crazy thing to say. I don't understand why you would say it, or why you would insist upon it so angrily, other than you are very angry at me and your responses are way out of proportion to the pretty common sense stuff I am suggesting. A great example of variation between PA programs lies in one of your first courses. Anatomy exhibits quite extreme variation between programs. I don't exactly know what the standardized "minimum" is for PA accreditation is, but it lies somewhere below what is taught at the programs that somewhat under emphasize anatomy. Along with those programs, there are others that throw PA students in with med student cadaver labs and have them take the same exams. I have tried digging up exactly what are the minimums, given the different approaches to anatomy by PA programs, and have largely come up blank. If you know where the document with those minimums is, please link it. A second example of variation would be whatever Wisconsin program that literally tosses the PA students into MS1 with the med students. I have to say, that really sounds like an enviable program. I would actually think that it is probably the future of your profession, for the good and the bad that comes with such a transition. So ya, I think you need to settle down a bit. PA programs exhibit variation, despite "standardization". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPA16 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Share Posted October 22, 2015 Oh, and to the OP. Go to med school, you will never regret being a "full level" provider. Thanks but I think I'm comfortable with being one of the best midlevel providers in the game (one day) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FfIghter23 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Thanks but I think I'm comfortable with being one of the best midlevel providers in the game (one day) Quite his point. All of the best PA's functioning at the top of their license are wishing they were physicians. Mainly dollar signs. Think big picture. It's the mediocre PA's who could never be a physician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwame E Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 I lurk this part of the forum quite regularly, and I have to say that a lot of you sound like wannabe MD's when you complain about nurse practitioners. Plus all the talk of wanting to be called an "associate physician" and what not. Comes across as very insecure. I'm still an undergrad and I'm pretty set on PA school, but I don't want to regret not becoming an MD/DO in 10 years like a lot of you seem to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatswain2PA Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 Kwame - Set your goal to go to MS/DO school. If ya can't get in, then try for PA. Im not a wanna be Doctor. I'm a "I wish I went to Med school". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will352ns Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 Quite his point. All of the best PA's functioning at the top of their license are wishing they were physicians. Mainly dollar signs. Think big picture. It's the mediocre PA's who could never be a physician. Actually I think this is a bit of a BS statement. Most PA's enjoy being PA's and there is nothing wrong with that. Not everyone has MD envy. To imply that if a PA doesn't wish they went MD isn't functioning at the top of their license is hubris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwame E Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 Kwame - Set your goal to go to MS/DO school. If ya can't get in, then try for PA. Im not a wanna be Doctor. I'm a "I wish I went to Med school". Is there really a difference? And the thought of 4 more years with no pay + residency makes my skin crawl. An MD behind my name isn't worth it, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiggySRNA Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 Is there really a difference? And the thought of 4 more years with no pay + residency makes my skin crawl. An MD behind my name isn't worth it, IMO. No major difference except pay. You will meet seasoned MDs who wish they had become PAs...or they urge those interested in medicine to pursue anything but MD/DO school since the field has evolved into a business. Everything stated on this long drawn out thread is subjective...do what pleases you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACdan Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 I lurk this part of the forum quite regularly, and I have to say that a lot of you sound like wannabe MD's when you complain about nurse practitioners. Plus all the talk of wanting to be called an "associate physician" and what not. Comes across as very insecure. I'm still an undergrad and I'm pretty set on PA school, but I don't want to regret not becoming an MD/DO in 10 years like a lot of you seem to be. I don't think it's regret per se (maybe for some), but more a desire to better the standing and recognition of the PA profession. Ex: When NPs lobby for and get the right to apply fluoride varnish for peds in clinic, and even go as far to include MAs on their proposal, but leave PAs off? That's beyond malicious. It's a tactic to say "well here's one more thing we can do that PAs can't". Why should we go out of our way to support their institution? We should not expend an ounce of energy propping up their profession. Their lobby is bigger, stronger, and clearly doesn't give a hoot about us or our professional abilities. Which is why it's so very perplexing when some suggest that we should all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Unfortunately will live in a world where facts are often overshadowed by a sales pitch. So I think PAs have every right and responsibility to promote the aspects of their training and profession that set them apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katpac Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 The fact you're applying to pa school and know so little about either profession is disconcerting Right?! How did OP even decide on the PA profession without basic knowledge? To be fair, OP, most of us here have more knowledge of the PA profession than NP. But it is my understanding that while there aren't official specialty programs for NP's, they are increasingly able to work in specialties much the same way PAs started in primary care and branched out. They are not just restricted to primary care or women's health or inpatient departments. Honestly, it seems like career wise NPs and PAs have very similar opportunities available with very different educations to get there (save for ER and surgery which seem to be PA heavy over NP). *Just my perception, not necessarily hard and fast truths* And as others have said an SP, or yes collaborating physician is a better term, is needed to practice but it is NOT a baby sitter situation. They do not hold your hand all day and double check all your work (chart review rules are part of some laws, though). PAs don't run all their decisions by doc. I strongly urge you to do your research, and not just ask on this forum for the answers, so that you can truly have an understanding of the profession before you interview. Check out AAPA, PAEA, run a google scholar search on the PA profession, start getting that foundation. I promise adcoms will be able to tell if you are giving a canned answer vs having a true knowledge of the profession. We need to be kinder and less judgemental of those who are interested in this profession. For multiple reasons. Our profession needs to be built up. We should not discourage those who have interest in it. There is power in numbers in a profession. One big difference between our profession and nurse partitioners is that they have that power in large numbers. Besides this, what good does it do to scoff when someone expresses an interest in our profession? You're just going to run off possibly very good candidates to build our profession. Besides this, it's just not nice (and makes us all look bad). We all know how competitive it is to get into PA school. It is not your place to judge someone who has a question about our profession nor is it wise to ridicule their questions. The admission board will thankfully do a good job of that. They will make sure that the candidate is fit for this profession. Did all of you know exactly what the difference was between the two professions when you started? If you did, if you knew someone a medicine or had parents in medicine, good for you. Many do not. Many want to help others, while bettering themselves, and haven't had enough background experience to know the fine detailed differences of the two. They will find out in time. Hopefully we can help expedite answering their questions in a safe and welcoming environment, encouraging our growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delco714 Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 Had no parents in medicine nor knew anyone, still knew the difference. It's called due diligence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MT2PA Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 We need to be kinder and less judgemental of those who are interested in this profession. For multiple reasons. Our profession needs to be built up. We should not discourage those who have interest in it. There is power in numbers in a profession. One big difference between our profession and nurse partitioners is that they have that power in large numbers. Besides this, what good does it do to scoff when someone expresses an interest in our profession? You're just going to run off possibly very good candidates to build our profession. Besides this, it's just not nice (and makes us all look bad). We all know how competitive it is to get into PA school. It is not your place to judge someone who has a question about our profession nor is it wise to ridicule their questions. The admission board will thankfully do a good job of that. They will make sure that the candidate is fit for this profession. Did all of you know exactly what the difference was between the two professions when you started? If you did, if you knew someone a medicine or had parents in medicine, good for you. Many do not. Many want to help others, while bettering themselves, and haven't had enough background experience to know the fine detailed differences of the two. They will find out in time. Hopefully we can help expedite answering their questions in a safe and welcoming environment, encouraging our growth. I would agree with you, but the OP has already applied and has interviews lined up. At that point in the game, he/she should have an understanding of the difference between NP/PA and how PAs practice relative to an SP. Because yes, when I submitted my applications I could easily answer those questions and how did the OP come to the realization that PA was the field for them without previously exploring those questions? I absolutely encourage people who don't know about the profession to ask questions and I will gladly tell you what I know and try and help them understand in a context which is relevant to their knowledge and have in fact done this numerous times. However I stand by my comments to the OP to really dig in and do some research for themselves at this point. The only way to truly understand is to look at facts and peer reviewed literature. I think we can agree that answers on this forum, from anonymous strangers, are about as reliable and unbiased as wikipedia. Even if they are reliable and from professionals with decades of experience, we have no way of confirming that save for self proclaimed titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatswain2PA Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 Is there really a difference? And the thought of 4 more years with no pay + residency makes my skin crawl. An MD behind my name isn't worth it, IMO. Yes, there's a difference. If I could go back in time I would try to convince my young self to make the sacrifices needed to continue my education THEN and try for medical school. Unfortunately I can't do that, and I'm way to old to reap much of the benefits of medical school. But I"m not a "wanna be" Doctor. Yes, the thought of 4 more years with no pay + residency seems like a LOT, especially to one so young, and raised in an American culture that is focused on instant gratification. But if you do a cost/benefit analysis, it is almost always better for young people to do MD/DO vice PA. It's not just the MD behind your name, it's all the things that go with it. Good luck, if you don't listen to me know, I hope you're not in my shoes in 25 years thinking "I wish I had at least TRIED for medical school!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paula Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 According to the physician I collaborate with, all PAs have the ability to be physicians and practice at that level, at least in primary care. So the OP likely has the ability.....but maybe not the desire to slog through the requirements to apply for med school????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPA16 Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 I would agree with you, but the OP has already applied and has interviews lined up. At that point in the game, he/she should have an understanding of the difference between NP/PA and how PAs practice relative to an SP. Because yes, when I submitted my applications I could easily answer those questions and how did the OP come to the realization that PA was the field for them without previously exploring those questions? I absolutely encourage people who don't know about the profession to ask questions and I will gladly tell you what I know and try and help them understand in a context which is relevant to their knowledge and have in fact done this numerous times. However I stand by my comments to the OP to really dig in and do some research for themselves at this point. The only way to truly understand is to look at facts and peer reviewed literature. I think we can agree that answers on this forum, from anonymous strangers, are about as reliable and unbiased as wikipedia. Even if they are reliable and from professionals with decades of experience, we have no way of confirming that save for self proclaimed titles. Ive been a hospital volunteer EMT, medical assistant, dental assistant, PT assistant. I've shadowed and worked alongside 5-6 NPs and students and I have shadowed and worked alongside ~10 PAs. i have asked the PAs and NPs to tell me the difference, and they really couldn't tell me the difference. hence why I came here. Didn't expect to get interrogated off of my mere 2 sentence explanation of my question. Funny to find out that after discussion of you PAs in the field, the consensus answer is "there is no difference in the grand scheme of things after a decade or so of practice , the formal education is the biggest difference" to paraphrase. I am pretty confused where the idea came from where I have no idea what a PA is. I never take things over the internet seriously, but this is a forum I am looking forward to being a part of for the next chapter of my life. I am offended. If someone came to me with an absurd question but truly did not know the answer, I would never ridicule them. And honestly, I know that in the medical field, PAs are bombarded with ridiculous questions every day, to the point where you appreciate knowing the answer and being happy to help them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPA16 Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 We need to be kinder and less judgemental of those who are interested in this profession. For multiple reasons. Our profession needs to be built up. We should not discourage those who have interest in it. There is power in numbers in a profession. One big difference between our profession and nurse partitioners is that they have that power in large numbers. Besides this, what good does it do to scoff when someone expresses an interest in our profession? You're just going to run off possibly very good candidates to build our profession. Besides this, it's just not nice (and makes us all look bad). We all know how competitive it is to get into PA school. It is not your place to judge someone who has a question about our profession nor is it wise to ridicule their questions. The admission board will thankfully do a good job of that. They will make sure that the candidate is fit for this profession. Did all of you know exactly what the difference was between the two professions when you started? If you did, if you knew someone a medicine or had parents in medicine, good for you. Many do not. Many want to help others, while bettering themselves, and haven't had enough background experience to know the fine detailed differences of the two. They will find out in time. Hopefully we can help expedite answering their questions in a safe and welcoming environment, encouraging our growth. thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator True Anomaly Posted October 26, 2015 Moderator Share Posted October 26, 2015 I don't think it's regret per se (maybe for some), but more a desire to better the standing and recognition of the PA profession. Ex: When NPs lobby for and get the right to apply fluoride varnish for peds in clinic, and even go as far to include MAs on their proposal, but leave PAs off? That's beyond malicious. It's a tactic to say "well here's one more thing we can do that PAs can't". Why should we go out of our way to support their institution? We should not expend an ounce of energy propping up their profession. Their lobby is bigger, stronger, and clearly doesn't give a hoot about us or our professional abilities. Which is why it's so very perplexing when some suggest that we should all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Unfortunately will live in a world where facts are often overshadowed by a sales pitch. So I think PAs have every right and responsibility to promote the aspects of their training and profession that set them apart. Can't disagree. The day I see an NP group reach out to a PA group on a political level about trying to lobby together for the same thing (and not some "white hat" issue that everyone's going to get behind), I will change my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMPA Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Ive been a hospital volunteer EMT, medical assistant, dental assistant, PT assistant. I've shadowed and worked alongside 5-6 NPs and students and I have shadowed and worked alongside ~10 PAs. i have asked the PAs and NPs to tell me the difference, and they really couldn't tell me the difference. hence why I came here. Didn't expect to get interrogated off of my mere 2 sentence explanation of my question. Funny to find out that after discussion of you PAs in the field, the consensus answer is "there is no difference in the grand scheme of things after a decade or so of practice , the formal education is the biggest difference" to paraphrase. I am pretty confused where the idea came from where I have no idea what a PA is. I never take things over the internet seriously, but this is a forum I am looking forward to being a part of for the next chapter of my life. I am offended. If someone came to me with an absurd question but truly did not know the answer, I would never ridicule them. And honestly, I know that in the medical field, PAs are bombarded with ridiculous questions every day, to the point where you appreciate knowing the answer and being happy to help them. You have touched on a heated topic. In my opinion, yes only my opinion, there is an underlying realization that most seasoned PAs elucidate. Pa programs are intense. Practicing medicine is more intense. The idea that we are assistants may be initially true while honing medicine practice skills. The reality is that after several years of practice, one tends to realize that they are indeed practicing on a independent level. Although supervising physician looks good on paper, in reality we the PA are responsible for all of our actions, morally, ethically, legally. To be putting all the hard work into medicine and being treated like a laborer to make healthcare systems and physicians rich while being underpaid and consistently berated by ignorant patients , physicians and the public takes its toll on the brightest minds. Then to have a NP say they are equivalent to our hard work, and ride the coat tails of our profession is degrading to say the least. PA programs generate individuals whom are equivalent to residents. If that individual flourishes then they work on the level of an attending whether recognized or not. I rally that 99 percent of seasoned PAs would love to have the opportunity to have a true bridge program. That is to say, once they have reached that level of disgust to truely bridge over to md. PA schooling is medical schooling. NP schooling is nursing. While everybody has a roll to play in healthcare, NP and PA are not interchangable. I hope this brings some clarity as to why this is such a heated topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPA16 Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 You have touched on a heated topic. In my opinion, yes only my opinion, there is an underlying realization that most seasoned PAs elucidate. Pa programs are intense. Practicing medicine is more intense. The idea that we are assistants may be initially true while honing medicine practice skills. The reality is that after several years of practice, one tends to realize that they are indeed practicing on a independent level. Although supervising physician looks good on paper, in reality we the PA are responsible for all of our actions, morally, ethically, legally. To be putting all the hard work into medicine and being treated like a laborer to make healthcare systems and physicians rich while being underpaid and consistently berated by ignorant patients , physicians and the public takes its toll on the brightest minds. Then to have a NP say they are equivalent to our hard work, and ride the coat tails of our profession is degrading to say the least. PA programs generate individuals whom are equivalent to residents. If that individual flourishes then they work on the level of an attending whether recognized or not. I rally that 99 percent of seasoned PAs would love to have the opportunity to have a true bridge program. That is to say, once they have reached that level of disgust to truely bridge over to md. PA schooling is medical schooling. NP schooling is nursing. While everybody has a roll to play in healthcare, NP and PA are not interchangable. I hope this brings some clarity as to why this is such a heated topic. I've thought about this for a while, so far I have only heard such true words come from you so far. I realize what I'm getting into. I can't speak for my 45 year old self, but to my 21 year old self, this seems like a good idea for me. PA salary is going up per year, and with introduction with (a form of lessor or greater) socialized healthcare, can't one say that PAs would become more valued ? I have also thought about going into academics at some point in my career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPA16 Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 I rally that 99 percent of seasoned PAs would love to have the opportunity to have a true bridge program. That is to say, once they have reached that level of disgust to truely bridge over to md. Currently, I know that medical schools are researching to get some of their programs to 3 years. whose to say that within the next 10 years, there won't be bridge programs besides LECOM? from what I've read, heard, and generally understand, I feel that eventually, ,maybe not in the next 5 years, or even 15, but eventually there will be a name change, or some sort of career merge between PAs and DO/MD if PAs continue to overstep their originally designated duties from the 1970s And I'm surprised to hear that you would say the number is 99% of PAs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will352ns Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 And I'm surprised to hear that you would say the number is 99% of PAs Just remember....80% of all statistics are made up on the spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted October 26, 2015 Moderator Share Posted October 26, 2015 Just remember....80% of all statistics are made up on the spot. that's true 90% of the time 60% of the time....:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katpac Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 thank you No problem. Feel free to PM me anytime and I would be glad to try to answer any questions you may have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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