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New grad general/vascular surgery position


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Hey everyone - long time lurker, first time poster. Just wanted to get some experienced eyes on an offer I was given the other day from a practice in Florida with a major healthcare corporation for a general & vascular surgery job. The responsibilities are primarily OR and rounding, with limited clinic work and 1 weekend/month of call. With my hiring the practice will be comprised of two PAs and four MDs. Although there was no formal discussion of hours per week, the surgeons put a great deal of emphasis on talking about personal lives, hobbies and enjoying the Florida weather. 

 

Base salary: $110,000

 

Call: $5/hr to carry pager, $60/hr to come in

 

Insurance: Plan dependent - around $20/week for health, vision & dental

 

401(k): 3% match (increasing with years of service)

 

Vacation: 20 days PTO

 

CME: 5 days & $2,000

 

Relocation: $5,000

 

Malpractice is covered by employer

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I feel like this is a strong offer, especially compared to some of the others on here. That said, I was raised to always be wary of the first offer under the impression that you can usually do better. I'm completely aware of the fact that as a new grad I don't bring much to the table initially, and I don't want to be greedy, although with training I'm sure I'll be an asset to the practice. 

 

I was thinking about approaching this from one, or all of the following avenues:

  • While the base is good, I could really use a sign-on bonus - $10,000 seems to be a number I'm hearing thrown around with some regularity. I would offer to tie this to a specific term (2 years). 
  • Increase in the PTO to 28 or 30 days
  • Salary increase to $120,000 (or an annual raise?)

I feel like the bonus and the PTO are reasonable requests. The salary increase would be based on the knowledge that a classmate has been offered $115,000 by the same corporation for a similar position. So lets hear it - thoughts? comments? concerns?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

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Hey everyone - long time lurker, first time poster. Just wanted to get some experienced eyes on an offer I was given the other day from a practice in Florida with a major healthcare corporation for a general & vascular surgery job. The responsibilities are primarily OR and rounding, with limited clinic work and 1 weekend/month of call. With my hiring the practice will be comprised of two PAs and four MDs. Although there was no formal discussion of hours per week, the surgeons put a great deal of emphasis on talking about personal lives, hobbies and enjoying the Florida weather. 

 

theirs' or yours?

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Both!

 

Music, fishing, cycling, golfing....there was a good deal of emphasis on the fact that it was a better quality of life than the north-east where I went to school. All this to say that I expect to work hard and probably in the ballpark of 40-60 hours/week, but not be worked to death. 

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Both!

 

Music, fishing, cycling, golfing....there was a good deal of emphasis on the fact that it was a better quality of life than the north-east where I went to school. All this to say that I expect to work hard and probably in the ballpark of 40-60 hours/week, but not be worked to death. 

 

At 60hrs/week you are making a whopping $38/hr based on a $110,000 salary. At 40hrs/week you're making $55/hr, which is much more realistic.  Just keep things in perspective.

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Although there was no formal discussion of hours per week, the surgeons put a great deal of emphasis on talking about personal lives, hobbies and enjoying the Florida weather. 

 

The reason they want to have a PA is so that they can do these things!

 

very careful, you only get to negotiate once, I would say become a straight hourly employee and then if they work you to death, you get paid for it......

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What's interesting about different providers is that the same work load may equal 40 hour work weeks for one, but 50-60 for another. I'm in a busy orthopedic practice and I see 35-40 patients on a average clinic day and have one regular OR day where we knock out 6-7 total joints. I am able to see my patients and finish all charting at 5pm... My surgeon is fast and we can get out of a 6-7 case day by 5pm as well. So for me, I'm salary and overall happy because I don't put in much overtime at all. Another colleague of mine in the same group has the same work load, but ends up charting 2-3 hours at home each day, and his surgeon is slower... So he puts in more time and is at times unhappy.

 

Your job offer sounds quite good, but no PA is the same. I'm happy with salary because I am efficient. The other guy feels over worked and under payed because he is not efficient. Which PA will you be?

 

That makes all the difference in how fair you think your paid. Only time will tell. But remember you will never be paid what you are worth, you will be only paid what you negotiate.

 

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Although there was no formal discussion of hours per week, the surgeons put a great deal of emphasis on talking about personal lives, hobbies and enjoying the Florida weather. 

 

The reason they want to have a PA is so that they can do these things!

 

very careful, you only get to negotiate once, I would say become a straight hourly employee and then if they work you to death, you get paid for it......

 

I understand your point, and while I disagree with that being the reasoning for them wanting to add a second PA to the practice, you bring up the fact that maybe I should clarify the expected time commitment a bit further. Rookie mistake. That said, how does one negotiate for hours? Would you add in that working more than XX hours per pay period would cause an increased hourly rate? Or just ask for a straight hourly rate? 

 

 

 

Your job offer sounds quite good, but no PA is the same. I'm happy with salary because I am efficient. The other guy feels over worked and under payed because he is not efficient. Which PA will you be? 

 

Wholeheartedly agree - I'm totally new to this, that's why I'm asking for help! I know from an extensive background as a paramedic and local union official that you have ask & fight for what you're worth. I work hard, and while I'm not going to be worth my money until I learn the ropes, I want this contract to be applicable and fair to me once I am a strongly contributing member of the team. Thanks for all the help!

 

To get back to the revised point of what I'm planning on asking for:

  • While the base is good, I could really use a sign-on bonus - $10,000 seems to be a number I'm hearing thrown around with some regularity. I would offer to tie this to a specific term (2 years). 
  • Increase in the PTO to 28 or 30 days
  • Salary increase to $120,000 (or an annual raise?) Clarify hours worked, somehow tie to an hourly rate with a goal of $110,000 with 40 hours per week. 

How we sounding, a little better?

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You're not worth this salary for two years. Unless this is in an underserved location where they can't get providers.. Also I would spend lots of time discussing the job with the other PA. Being in an abusive sub spec like I am,I have worked in overtime pay (>44hr/wk). However they've used that as an excuse before to just blatantly work more hours.. I'm good with what I get paid, rather just not work more, personally.

 

Ask for more pto, and get info on yearly raises.

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It appears I have a very similar job..looking at average salary in report..and also I remember how rough the first 6-12 mo were. My worth in terms of sheer volume of rounding and consults and income for the practice sky rocketed after about 8 mo. It takes a huge amount of effort from the new grad and the team to get them running. A subspeciality pa in this role will be worth their weight in gold but not to start. I'm most particularly concerned with op trying to take and take from employer. Could eventually rub the wrong way. I am however a fan of excellent reimbursement

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It appears I have a very similar job..looking at average salary in report..and also I remember how rough the first 6-12 mo were. My worth in terms of sheer volume of rounding and consults and income for the practice sky rocketed after about 8 mo. It takes a huge amount of effort from the new grad and the team to get them running. A subspeciality pa in this role will be worth their weight in gold but not to start. I'm most particularly concerned with op trying to take and take from employer. Could eventually rub the wrong way. I am however a fan of excellent reimbursement

Well two things- each job is unique and the only way to know the value is to know what the PA services are billed for, either direct or indirect

Second thing is that as ventana said, you only get to negotiate once. The candidate should push for the best reimbursement package up front; nothing wrong with being aggressive. If the practice dumps you for asking for a competitive package, then it wasn't the right job. Furthermore if you come is as a pushover then it can be hard to dig out of that hole.

To be "concerned with trying to take and take from employer" and "a fan of excellent reimbursement" can be at odds with each other!

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I don't disagree with your sentiments at all, buy i do feel that you and ventana may be a bit out of touch about what it's like to be a new grad PA going into a surgical subspeciality in 2015. I hope he gets everything he wants. That would be VERY EXCELLENT. Just hope the pay package doesn't return the favor with a bad environment. First job is a foundation!

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I don't disagree with your sentiments at all, buy i do feel that you and ventana may be a bit out of touch about what it's like to be a new grad PA going into a surgical subspeciality in 2015. I hope he gets everything he wants. That would be VERY EXCELLENT. Just hope the pay package doesn't return the favor with a bad environment. First job is a foundation!

Employers know that negotiations make most people uncomfortable and leverage that when making an offer. If they truly feel the candidate is a good fit, they aren't going to dump them because they have asked for more X. At best they will say yes. At worst they will say no. There are always exceptions but they probably aren't a good fit in that case. Using salary reports serves as a guide, but it doesn't mean that you need to be the median. You really only get one chance to get the salary you want at a particular practice. Most large increases are obtained by switching jobs.

 

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Employers know that negotiations make most people uncomfortable and leverage that when making an offer. If they truly feel the candidate is a good fit, they aren't going to dump them because they have asked for more X. At best they will say yes. At worst they will say no. There are always exceptions but they probably aren't a good fit in that case. Using salary reports serves as a guide, but it doesn't mean that you need to be the median. You really only get one chance to get the salary you want at a particular practice. Most large increases are obtained by switching jobs.

 

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And have you started your first non fellowship full time PA position?
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 If they truly feel the candidate is a good fit, they aren't going to dump them because they have asked for more X. At best they will say yes. At worst they will say no. 

 

Nope. If you push too hard, they may push hard back...  and end all further negotiations. You may seem to be a perfect fit, when you ask for more than the market indicates with your level of experience, you may suddenly seem out of touch and that "perfect fit" can quickly dissolve. 

If there was truly no harm in asking, we would all ask for $120K straight out of school and I can bet most of us didn't do that.

 

Good luck! Sounds like a great opportunity.

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Nope. If you push too hard, they may push hard back... and end all further negotiations. You may seem to be a perfect fit, when you ask for more than the market indicates with your level of experience, you may suddenly seem out of touch and that "perfect fit" can quickly dissolve.

If there was truly no harm in asking, we would all ask for $120K straight out of school and I can bet most of us didn't do that.

 

Good luck! Sounds like a great opportunity.

If you want 120k and they are offering 85k then it's best to look for another job. If they offered 90k and you want 100k, or an increase in cme funds, or some extra pto, it's not far fetched to ask for it. It's all relative.

 

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If you want 120k and they are offering 85k then it's best to look for another job. If they offered 90k and you want 100k, or an increase in cme funds, or some extra pto, it's not far fetched to ask for it. It's all relative.

 

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I think this is great advice. It has to be in the ballpark of the offer to begin with. I wonder an "appropriate" range would be considered - like within 10% of the offer?

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growing up in south florida and seeing the offers out there this offer sounds a bit too good to be true salary wise

 

i would be wary of the non discussion of hours. I have a feeling they are offering more than avg for a new grad because they know they are going to work you

 

just for your FYI my class came out all offers were between 75-85 in south florida so take that into consideration when they offer this. not saying you wont work 40 hours and leave just be wary. Florida for PAs is a bit of a gamble. you have some providers who value us vs some who just want to milk our production

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growing up in south florida and seeing the offers out there this offer sounds a bit too good to be true salary wise

 

i would be weary of the non discussion of hours. I have a feeling they are offering more than avg for a new grad because they know they are going to work you

 

just for your FYI my class came out all offers were between 75-85 in south florida so take that into consideration when they offer this. not saying you wont work 40 hours and leave just be weary. Florida for PAs is a bit of a gamble. you have some providers who value us vs some who just want to milk our production

  

Um, I have to ask ... weary?  Or, wary?  :)  (sometimes the english lessons my grandmother DRILLED me on just take over)

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