Seeking advice from fellow veterans

[Sapper-PA]

The debt has been paid in sacrificing their time, freedom, and often their families to serve and protect. We are not entitled or owed exactly but military service carries a huge burden that less than 1% of the population is currently willing to do. Personally I went through IPAP and owed four more years of service to pay for my degree. In that four years I did two full combat tours on top of the one I'd already prior to school. A lot of the soldiers that come in and serve four years spend the majority of that time deployed. It's a small price to pay to allow those who served an education with the possibility of a real job once they get out.

[cop to pa]

Contrarian:  Our education system in this country is one of the most expensive for the student in the world.  I feel that any pathway that can help mitigate the cost of education away from the student should be explored.  I am advocating it for veterans, because I am a veteran and it is my peer group.  Even if something is done in the next Congressional session, it will likely not apply to me, and I will have to incur student debt.  If I was a one-armed Cambodian I'd advocate for funding for Asian amputees.  Someone has to try, and debt should NOT have to be a right of passage, if it can be avoided for ANY group.

 

I am curious why you used the term "veterans" in quotes.  Are one group of veterans better or different than any other?

[armymedicchris]

I would agree with the "difficulty" of juggling military and academics. I tried to do both, and as a result my GPA suffered. I'll be trying to make up for it in the fall. Programs are starting to look less at the overall candidate and more at just your GPA. While GPA is important, I know people with 4.0 GPA's in biology who couldn't find their way out of a paper bag. 

 

For me personally, I had a great scope of practice while in Afghanistan (2 months ago). I was seeing my own patients/diagnosing/prescribing with a PA co-signature (who usually didn't see the patient). It's difficult for me to come back to an EMT-B scope of practice for the next 6 years. That's why I'm leaning towards the nursing/NP route, which will allow me to get a better scope of practice in a shorter time. 

 

We all appreciate what you're doing! 

[Contrarian]

@Sapper PA & Cop to PA...

 

SLOW your rolls...

 

I AM A COMBAT Veteran and Continue to Serve Veterans Daily.

 

Again... the GI bill was designed and will pay for a certain amount of education. GREAT...!!!

That's it... That's ALL...!!!!

 

It was never designed/intended to serve as a lifetime scholarship to pay for EVERY educational endeavor any veteran may want to pursue.

 

The military is VOLUNTARY and the people who do enlist get paid for doing their job.

Please quit acting like its some sacred "calling" by the angels or some such nonsense.

MOST join to escape worse stuff back home NOT for some sort of Patriotic reason that then canonizes them.

Everyone that volunteers CAN choose NOT to do it, not to re-enlist.

 

For volunteering, one is offered some benefits. The GI BILL being one of them.

The GI bill pays for exactly what it pays for, no more , no less.

 

Want funding after your GI bill is exhausted...???

Take out loans like EVERY ONE ELSE does.

[Glorious_Ignoramus]

Contrarian, no one suggested that the GI Bill be used to fund a veteran's education from undergrad to terminal degree.

 

I highly disagree with your assumption/anecdote that most veterans join to escape home rather than for reasons patriotic; how could you know this without taking a survey?

 

I know you said you are a vet and work for vets daily, but I read your posts with a bit of animosity towards veterans who are actively pursuing a better life for self and family.  It's difficult to put a price tag on serving in Iraq and attending an at-sea funeral for Marines who suffered horrendous deaths like a sniper shot through the throat, blown to (literally) bits while defusing an IED, etc.  Those lucky enough to score a stint with private contracting in the same places were compensated to the tune of $150k/yr+ without taxes.

 

Besides, how much worth does a citizen hold as a veteran and college grad and medical professional, vs someone who spends his life living paycheck to paycheck, working for $10-15/hr until retirement where they then live off of medicare, Medicaid and social security?

[HmTwoPA]

I recently separated officially last month and am putting in applications currently. I wont weigh in on the Veterans deserving more than the GI Bill discussion, but I can say that I do notice that it seems the PA programs are becoming less veteran friendly just from an applicants stand point. I haven't hit the interview season yet so I do not know if this is true or just a feeling of digress while waiting for invites. I think proof of this can be seen when looking at application websites or talking to their offices. Duke founded the PA profession starting with Corpsman. As a Corpsman I find it disheartening when I look at their website and Corpsman/Medic isn't listed as acceptable HCE. 

 

What type of patient care counts and what does not?  

Athletic Trainer
Clinic assistant
Clinical Research Assistant
Dietician
EMT or Paramedic
Exercise Physiologist
Health educator
Patient care attendant, CNA, or Nurse’s Aide
Peace Corps volunteer or other cross-cultural health care experience
Pharmacy Tech (hospital or nursing home setting)
Phlebotomist
Physical therapy aide
Respiratory Therapist
RN
Scribe
Technologist with patient interaction

Therapist or Clinical Social Worker

 

I'm sure its implied that it is but it still shows you that PA programs are seemingly further from being Veteran friendly than what they used to be. 

[ventana]

C

 

Careful on assumptions that most joined uniformed services to escape

 

I had a BS, great life, and enlisted in the USAF to serve my country. 

 

I  have no idea what the reality of the situation is rather people are trying to escape or not, but I know that I don't know that....

[Sapper-PA]

I too joined out of patriotism and stayed because I've had great opportunities.  I doubt that I would have ever made it to and through PA school without the military.   I do feel that a lot of vet's feel entitled to things and that's not what I'm trying to say.  I do not think it's too much to ask for a program that provides veterans with a free 4 year degree.  The GI bill as it was when I joined was not able to provide this.  The post 9-11 bill is improved but I still think it falls short of that 4 year degree mark.  The job market today does not have many opportunities for someone without that minimum level of education. If you want to go beyond the GI bill then yes, maybe you should pay for that or take out loans but as it was said previously loans should not be some badge of honor or right of passage.  I think that there are plenty of grants, scholarships and other ways around loans and in our for-profit education system any way to reduce your debt should be sought out.

[Boatswain2PA]

I joined because college football was not the fun and enjoyable route to stardom that I thought it was going to be.  Instead it was more about getting my a$$ kicked every day on the practice field as part of the meat squad.  Couldn't believe I went from being (one of) the best on the field in high school to being the slowest guy on the field with a target on my back (and chest, and helmet...)

 

Cop to PA:  Yes, in my view some group of veterans ARE "better" than others.  

The top tier guys are the operators who suited up and sacrificed their physical and psychological well being to complete the mission. 

 

Below them are the support staff who actually supported the operators - Docs, nurses, logistics, etc.

 

Then there are the REMFs.  They usually had gold on their collars, slept at home every night, and were very adept at power points, spreadsheets, and emails.....and they now outnumber operators 10:1.

[Contrarian]

Several times a day, I have a "Veteran", enter my office attempting to use me to game the system.

 

I hear nonsensical war stories reported by individuals who assume that they are speaking to a civilian and go all UBER "Walter Mitty" on me.

 

I interact with "Valor thieves" on a regular basis.

 

Typically the loudest, most vociferous complainer's are the ones who were medically discharged somewhere around week 3 of basic training.

 

Again, most folks who've joined DID NOT join due to some PATRIOTIC country loving notion.

 

I did not. I joined because I was soon to be a teenage parent, and needed a steady income to raise my child.

 

When I reflect on my 8 years in the military US Army airborne, I see the faces of many/most of the soldiers in the platoon's and companies and Battalion's that I was assigned to. A significant majority of the individuals were in similar situations. Most were from low to upper low class, without very many if any job prospects, or from foreign countries seeking employment, education and/or US citizenship.

 

A significant portion of the officers in the US military are simply there to pay back college debt. Not all… But again a significant portion are ROTC/Academy graduates who have a debt to repay.

 

This is not to say that a lot of us didn't develop some form of patriotism... But it has been long known that the reason we fight for the people standing next to us, our buddies, our unit, our pride.

 

Again, most folks who've joined DID NOT join due to some PATRIOTIC country loving notion.

 

ALTRUISTIC Notions are quaint but rare.

 

YMMV

 

Carry On...

[Contrarian]

To add...

Many moons ago... before most of those responding even heard of PA school or what a PA school was... the older guys and gals KNEW when asked by a Adcom- "Why do you want to be a PA"... ???  To reflexively answer with the standard, "To help people and to go into FAMILY PRACTICE/RURAL PRIMARY CARE"... if they really wanted any chance of getting into their top choice program without re-applying. Things have changed.

 

Just like then... of course most folks reflexively answer with some patriotic BS instead of saying "College Money/Loan Repayment."

[ventana]

C---

I gotta disagree with you on "most joined to escape"

 

You have a selection bias that you are not acknowledging.  You have no hard facts, just your experiences and you are applying this to everyone who every joined the military. 

 

From my perspective, going into the USAF in 1994 (after DS1) most were looking to join for patriotism, second was school benefits, third was for potential in the future (no future where they came from) and 4th would be he escape.

 

My point is that you were in the Army, (which is likely the easiest to get into-  and therefore mos used to escape) and now are in the VA Psych (thank you for your ongoing service) where you are likely continually harassed by those looking for a free hand out.  You have likely (I don't know) never seen or interacted with large numbers of  USAF, USCG, and Navy people that did there time, served, and got out after serving their country and never asked for another thing..... these people are out there in HUGE numbers but you would never see them professionally ok know it.  Heck one of the Docs I worked with was an avionics troop in the USAF (one of the reasons I went to work with him).  Point is there are likely huge numbers of people that served and are proud of it.  

 

 

 

 

Can you provide some type of hard evidence that "everyone joins to run away"?

 

 

 

Almost every week I read a different article about a Doc or NFL player, or some successful professional joining to serve.  I hear neighborhood kids talking about serving.  In my neck of the woods service means something..  Please just make wide assumptions and statements about an entire countries military unless you have HARD EVIDENCE to back up it as is just cheapens the entire institution.

 

 

 

As to the original post

 

thoughts

 

1)  expand IPAP to push through a lot more PA's - make people enlist and then put them through school and get more service out of them.  

2) allow for more VA funded scholarships available to only veterans for PA school specifically

3)  it would be great to have more schools take more vets, but each school is only concerned with themselves and therefor when push comes to shove they really are not going to care.  But what about the VA setting up a PA school for Vets - think Walter Reed - or some other huge hospital, and let them pluck people out of Active or Reserve duty to be assigned to the school?

 

 

 

Just my thoughts....

[Contrarian]

^^^... Sigh...

 

Again, most folks who've joined DID NOT join due to some PATRIOTIC country loving notion.

 

ALTRUISTIC Notions are quaint but rare.

 

YMMV

 

Carry On...

[cop to pa]

Why does it really matter why a vet joined? We left our homes to serve our country. Many of us have been fired upon, slept in mud and dirt, gone a day or more without eating, drank water either near boiling or near freezing. Suffer back and joint pain from carrying heavy weights over long distances. Cared for patients that we knew, had gone home with for holidays, shared meals and jokes with. Many of us saw them die or become disabled. 

 

Then, we enter a workforce or educational model that doesn't recognize what we did or have a way to transition the training, knowledge and skills we obtained into their worlds.

 

There are easier ways to learn a trade or pay for school. And, I really don't care why you joined or what you did. We all served (even some REMF who never left his or her air conditioning).

[Contrarian]

It matters because WE "volunteered" to do all that stuff. We didn't have to do it... we weren't drafted. WE volunteered to accept those hardships MOST of the time NOT for patriotic reasons but for simple practical and often financial reasons. WE got paid while we were doing the job WE volunteered to do.

 

WE then have the option of the G.I. bill for that service WE volunteered to do. COOOOOOOOOOOOL...!!!!!!

 

Yes there are "easier ways to learn a trade or pay for school"... but WE chose the military as our training and funding source.

 

We enter the workforce and they do indeed recognize our training and skills. They recognized that a typical 91A=EMT-B or CNA... and that a 91B=EMT-I (or P with some additional training). 91C=LPN. I was smart and motivated enough to go to school at night for a few months to make sure that my 91B did indeed =NREMTP standards then took the test. Lots of medics didn't bother. They just sat around and whined that their medic training SHOULD equal x-y or z instead of the follow through needed to ensure that it does.

 

The AARTS transcript issued by ACE does indeed translate much of basic training and AIT/A school into civilian equivalents and MOST schools WILL give elective credit for that training. So I'm really not sure what the problem is.

 

Are you suggesting that a person's poor choice of a military job (drive a tank/shoot a cannon, etc) should receive anything additional other than a scratch of the head... the chin and the offer for retraining that is already offered...??? I'm confused because that Tank Driver or Artillery guy can use his G.I. bill for a degree in whatever he wants to just like that medic or crew chief can.

 

 I really don't care why you joined or what you did either. In MY eyes... you are a veteran and deserve ALL the rights and benefits that were promised to you when YOU VOLUNTEERED. But you did VOLUNTEER and since WE did... we shouldn't then wrap ourselves in a flag... and expect anything MORE than what was promised when we volunteered.

[Glorious_Ignoramus]

Contrarian - how could you possibly know this?  I can use myself as an example - I joined during OIF but before the Post 9/11 GI Bill was passed.  I knew the Chapter 30 GI Bill would be barely cover community college but joined to do my part with the war effort.  I had no intention of going to college at the time of joining.  There were many like me who joined - a good buddy already had a history BA when he enlisted; two other buddies left college to join, one went MARSOC; our unit doctor turned down a neuro residency to become a grunt GMO; one voluntarily re-enlisted after having already been a Marine; yet another left his post as a business owner to enlist.

 

I'm not saying that you're not in any way correct, but I find your statistic highly suspect.  Those who just want college money don't join deployable units at time when he have a significant presence in the chronically most war-torn part of the globe, draw-down or not, especially with IS and Iran.  Besides, for those that do join for the college money, what's the big deal?  It shows the power of incentive and keeps our force full of volunteers instead of draftees and recalls.

[cop to pa]

So, good points and a good discussion all around. But, as the OP, this has kind of gone off the rails from the original intent. Thanks everyone for their contribution. If any moderator could go ahead and lock this, that'd be great.

[Contrarian]

Again, most folks who've joined DID NOT join due to some PATRIOTIC country loving notion.

 

ALTRUISTIC Notions are quaint but rare.

 

YMMV

 

Naaahhh...

Maybe you're new or something... but it doesn't work that way.

 

Carry On...

[Contrarian]

The conservative claim that most youth enlist due to patriotism and the desire to "serve one's country" is misleading. The Pentagon's own surveys show that something vague and abstract called "duty to country" motivates only a portion of enlistees.

 

The vast majority of young people wind up in the military for different reasons, ranging from economic pressure to the desire to escape a dead-end situation at home to the promise of citizenship.

 

Over all, disenfranchisement may be one of the most accurate words for why many youth enlist.

 

[Contrarian]

When mandatory military service ended in 1973, the volunteer military was born. By the early 1980s, the term "poverty draft" had gained currency to connote the belief that the enlisted ranks of the military were made up of young people with limited economic opportunities.

 

[Contrarian]

It is not so much that one either studies hard or winds up in Iraq but rather that many U.S. troops enlist because access to higher education is closed off to them. Although they may be "plenty smart," financial hardship drives many to view the military's promise of money for college as their only hope to study beyond high school.

 

Recruiters may not explicitly target "the poor," but there is mounting evidence that they target those whose career options are severely limited. According to a 2007 Associated Press analysis, "nearly three-fourths of [u.S. troops] killed in Iraq came from towns where the per capita income was below the national average. More than half came from towns where the percentage of people living in poverty topped the national average."

 

[Contrarian]

Right on the money...!!!

 

Not all recruits, of course, are driven by financial need. In working-class communities of every color, there are often long-standing traditions of military service and links between service and privileged forms of masculinity. For communities often marked as "foreign," such as Latinos and Asians, there is pressure to serve in order to prove that one is "American." For recent immigrants, there is the lure of gaining legal resident status or citizenship.

Economic pressure, however, is an undeniable motivation -- yet to assert that fact in public often leads to confrontations with conservatives who ask, "How dare you question our troops' patriotism?"

 

[mlsiebe]

Contrarian: 

noun

1.

a person who takes an opposing view, especially one who rejects themajority opinion, as in economic matters.

 

your chosen screen name tells me that you are just looking for confrontation.  Your last "quote" gives you away when it calls out conservatives for defending the patriotism of our troops.  Your demeanor makes me think that you embody everything that is bad about both our nations military and especially the VA.  I sincerely hope you are nearing retirement so we can get some fresh blood in there who love and support our troops.  It was medical providers like YOU who thought every veteran was just trying to game the system who misdiagnosed my injuries for 9 years until a private physician who cared about his patients ordered an MRI and discovered not one not two but three disc herniations, two cervical and one lumbar.  The VA would give me pain killers and muscle relaxers and tell me to take it easy for two or three weeks.  Now I am just waiting until the lucky day comes when I get a three level fusion in my neck and two level in my lumbar.  

 

With your attitude towards veterans you might be better served to go out to the private sector and leave caring for veterans to people who love and respect them.