Naturopathic Medicine

[zoopeda]

I didn't realize "trepanation" was still being practiced today, drawing crowds, and filling offices of successful practitioners based on word of mouth referrals who, despite not receiving insurance reimbursement or mainstream endorsement.  

 

We have derailed...

[acozadd]

zoopeda- some of the busiest doctors that I know (in results oriented fields including surgery) are also some that I wouldn't let touch myself, family, friends, or dog. Being busy is not an indicator of good practice or successful outcomes. Likewise, some of the best doctors that I know are also some of the slowest. This is generally from a personality flaw, but their results are top notch.

[zoopeda]

zoopeda- some of the busiest doctors that I know (in results oriented fields including surgery) are also some that I wouldn't let touch myself, family, friends, or dog. Being busy is not an indicator of good practice or successful outcomes. Likewise, some of the best doctors that I know are also some of the slowest. This is generally from a personality flaw, but their results are top notch.

 

 

Popularity is not always a direct indicator of competency.  But in a field where insurance reimbursement is near zero, capitalism truly does dictate who stays in business and who does not.  In a big hospital network, a tenured doctor has a lot of latitude in terms of practice and behavior.  In a private, out-of-pocket clinic, results have a much stronger influence over who makes a living and who does not.  

[zoopeda]

I think that's awesome that your dad was able to turn his health around with help from a ND.  Maybe he was obese and diet and exercise was recommended or something along those lines?  The issue I have is when a patient has a malignancy, for example, and a non-evidence based treatment is offered.  I won't pass judgement on each naturopath, but it's certainly fair to say the profession and training is not based on scientific evidence.

 

My dad was a bit overweight but not obese.  He complained to multiple MDs, a DO, and a PA about his decline into diabetes and how he would like a non-drug solution.  They all tried to sell him on Metformin--which he succumbed to for several years.  He then found an ND who laid out the exact diet that would help him along with some other suggestions (such as exercise) and a few inexpensive supplements.  He's now no longer taking pharmaceuticals and is in much better health overall.  Had he not met this ND, I am certain he would be far worse off, overweight, and still taking prescription drugs.  

 

My wife contracted a parasite (amoeba histolytica) in China.  She tried to battle it on her own with various fasts and supposed natural remedies.  After 6 months of worsening symptoms, she saw an ND who tested her, Dx-ed her, and treated her with an herbal supplement called Paragard.  After 6 months of debilitating stomach pain and diarrhea, she was cured over a 2-week period.  "Placebo," I'm sure.  

 

My kids (2 and 5) saw an ND for a long time.  Through bronchitis and ear infections and lots of clod and flu they never once took a drug (OTC or Rx).  I'm not saying this ND was some sort of guru.  I'm saying there just might be some truth to the claim that we, in the pharma-funded US medical industry, are too aggressive with our prescribing and that, given better guidance (i.e. non-FDA "Food Pyramid" nutritional guidance and other recommendations), many patients are actually able to recover on their own and to greater extent.  

 

My Dad contacted MRSA.  He was on IV antibiotics several times for a few months.  No cure.  A "Chinese herbalist" applied "Jin Huang San" topically, and he was cured within a week.  Again, placebo, no doubt.  (I realize LAc is not an ND, but certainly any "herbalist" must be equally hokey, right?) 

 

I'm not going to spend a lot more energy here trying to convince the entrenched.  I'm primarily writing to Smurf who seemed interested and to other non-extremists out there who are at least willing to listen without slinging insults.  Give it some thought.  I realize on a forum like this, I appear to be the villain.  In reality, I'm in training to be a competent PA and prescriber.  I just think there's some value to more conservative practice and something NDs have to offer our healthcare system.  

[whoRyou]

I was but the insurance companies would not reimburse for it.

Those silly insurance companies always ruining everyone's fun

[cbrsmurf]

My dad was a bit overweight but not obese.  He complained to multiple MDs, a DO, and a PA about his decline into diabetes and how he would like a non-drug solution.  They all tried to sell him on Metformin--which he succumbed to for several years.  He then found an ND who laid out the exact diet that would help him along with some other suggestions (such as exercise) and a few inexpensive supplements.  He's now no longer taking pharmaceuticals and is in much better health overall.  Had he not met this ND, I am certain he would be far worse off, overweight, and still taking prescription drugs.  

 

My wife contracted a parasite (amoeba histolytica) in China.  She tried to battle it on her own with various fasts and supposed natural remedies.  After 6 months of worsening symptoms, she saw an ND who tested her, Dx-ed her, and treated her with an herbal supplement called Paragard.  After 6 months of debilitating stomach pain and diarrhea, she was cured over a 2-week period.  "Placebo," I'm sure.  

 

My kids (2 and 5) saw an ND for a long time.  Through bronchitis and ear infections and lots of clod and flu they never once took a drug (OTC or Rx).  I'm not saying this ND was some sort of guru.  I'm saying there just might be some truth to the claim that we, in the pharma-funded US medical industry, are too aggressive with our prescribing and that, given better guidance (i.e. non-FDA "Food Pyramid" nutritional guidance and other recommendations), many patients are actually able to recover on their own and to greater extent.  

 

My Dad contacted MRSA.  He was on IV antibiotics several times for a few months.  No cure.  A "Chinese herbalist" applied "Jin Huang San" topically, and he was cured within a week.  Again, placebo, no doubt.  (I realize LAc is not an ND, but certainly any "herbalist" must be equally hokey, right?) 

 

I'm not going to spend a lot more energy here trying to convince the entrenched.  I'm primarily writing to Smurf who seemed interested and to other non-extremists out there who are at least willing to listen without slinging insults.  Give it some thought.  I realize on a forum like this, I appear to be the villain.  In reality, I'm in training to be a competent PA and prescriber.  I just think there's some value to more conservative practice and something NDs have to offer our healthcare system.  

 

I'm happy that your family had such great outcomes.  From an evidence-based perspective I would like to point out some things on each of examples you gave:

 

1) Diet and exercise are by far the best treatment for adult onset diabetes and you would be hard pressed to find a evidence-based practitioner who does not think so.  Metformin is the best drug we have to delay the progression of diabetes.  Sounds like the ND he saw layed out a good diet and exercise plan for him.  I could see a busy or lazy PCP not putting in the effort to make a lifestyle change and writing an easy 10 second prescription.

 

2) Naturopathic medicine has a propensity to diagnose parasites as the cause for many ailments.  See dark field microscopy and so forth.  Obviously I do not know the exact details with your wife, but I would be interested on how the ND was able to diagnose E. histolytica without running a PCR.

 

3) Bronchitis and ear infections heal on their own in an overwhelming majority of children without any medical or even supportive therapy.

 

4) Again, don't know all the details about your family, but MRSA does not need to be eradicated or treated if it does not cause any problems.  

 

Any scientist, or person, should be skeptical about any form of treatment.  One should always think about the methodology that occurs between an action and a result.  Evidence based medicine explains the result, while naturopathic treatments gives a result and tries to fabricate an explanation afterwards.

[Joelseff]

My dad was a bit overweight but not obese. He complained to multiple MDs, a DO, and a PA about his decline into diabetes and how he would like a non-drug solution. They all tried to sell him on Metformin--which he succumbed to for several years. He then found an ND who laid out the exact diet that would help him along with some other suggestions (such as exercise) and a few inexpensive supplements. He's now no longer taking pharmaceuticals and is in much better health overall. Had he not met this ND, I am certain he would be far worse off, overweight, and still taking prescription drugs.

 

My wife contracted a parasite (amoeba histolytica) in China. She tried to battle it on her own with various fasts and supposed natural remedies. After 6 months of worsening symptoms, she saw an ND who tested her, Dx-ed her, and treated her with an herbal supplement called Paragard. After 6 months of debilitating stomach pain and diarrhea, she was cured over a 2-week period. "Placebo," I'm sure.

 

My kids (2 and 5) saw an ND for a long time. Through bronchitis and ear infections and lots of clod and flu they never once took a drug (OTC or Rx). I'm not saying this ND was some sort of guru. I'm saying there just might be some truth to the claim that we, in the pharma-funded US medical industry, are too aggressive with our prescribing and that, given better guidance (i.e. non-FDA "Food Pyramid" nutritional guidance and other recommendations), many patients are actually able to recover on their own and to greater extent.

 

My Dad contacted MRSA. He was on IV antibiotics several times for a few months. No cure. A "Chinese herbalist" applied "Jin Huang San" topically, and he was cured within a week. Again, placebo, no doubt. (I realize LAc is not an ND, but certainly any "herbalist" must be equally hokey, right?)

 

I'm not going to spend a lot more energy here trying to convince the entrenched. I'm primarily writing to Smurf who seemed interested and to other non-extremists out there who are at least willing to listen without slinging insults. Give it some thought. I realize on a forum like this, I appear to be the villain. In reality, I'm in training to be a competent PA and prescriber. I just think there's some value to more conservative practice and something NDs have to offer our healthcare system.

Why don't you go to naturopath school? It sounds like you might enjoy that more than allopathic Medicine. (all seriousness, no sarcasm or offense intended)

 

Sent from my S5 Active...Like you care...

 

 

[zoopeda]

The amoeba was diagnosed through straight western lab blood tests. The herbal cure was confirmed this way as well.

 

The MRSA infection WAS causing problems! It was festering in his leg and was, at times, quite painful. After two rounds of IV (which was after several rounds of oral), Chinese herbs did what the drugs could not.

 

I already have a 4-yr degree in East Asian medicine. As a PA, I plan to integrate those skills into primary care or internal medicine practice. I don't need to be an ND too (in fact, I believe the medicine I learned in China holds more water than some if the ND therapies out there). I'd like to see the "good" NDs out there identified and utilized. Obviously my personal examples above are not of witchcraft and are even within the scope of PA practice. This issue for me is that it took a CAM provider to achieve clinical results in all these cases. I also think NDs have a lot to learn from mainstream care providers, and I would like to see greater respect and understanding flow in both directions.

[Joelseff]

The amoeba was diagnosed through straight western lab blood tests. The herbal cure was confirmed this way as well.

 

The MRSA infection WAS causing problems! It was festering in his leg and was, at times, quite painful. After two rounds of IV (which was after several rounds of oral), Chinese herbs did what the drugs could not.

 

I already have a 4-yr degree in East Asian medicine. As a PA, I plan to integrate those skills into primary care or internal medicine practice. I don't need to be an ND too (in fact, I believe the medicine I learned in China holds more water than some if the ND therapies out there). I'd like to see the "good" NDs out there identified and utilized. Obviously my personal examples above are not of witchcraft and are even within the scope of PA practice. This issue for me is that it took a CAM provider to achieve clinical results in all these cases. I also think NDs have a lot to learn from mainstream care providers, and I would like to see greater respect and understanding flow in both directions.

While I was in the Philippines doing medical missions, we utilized herbal meds like Legundi (beta agonist) and acapulco plant to make a topical salve that is antifungal and anti-inflammatory. The University of the Philippines med school teaches this in their pharmacology curriculum. These are medicines and have been studied. The pharmacological components of the herbs are what make them effective. I don't consider it voodoo. I consider it Medicine. Like the ones used on your family I am guessing were also medicines. I am against the craziness and downright unscientific practices like the whole "holding a weigh and a pill to a pts chest to prove it's toxic" bs that Mike posted. I think there is a vast difference between herbs that are Medicine and hoohah.

 

Sent from my S5 Active...Like you care...

 

[JohnnyM2]

I tend to discount naturopaths as quacks because, in many instances, they are, and their herbal medicines are just pleasant placebos. Recently, however, I read the attached link and realized that there are SOME herbal extracts that are actually beneficial. At first, I was really excited because I misread the herb as Thunder God wine which seemed really great. Then, I realized it was Thunder God vine. Rats!

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-05/cp-tgv051515.php

[PACdan]

My dad was a bit overweight but not obese.  He complained to multiple MDs, a DO, and a PA about his decline into diabetes and how he would like a non-drug solution.  They all tried to sell him on Metformin--which he succumbed to for several years.  He then found an ND who laid out the exact diet that would help him along with some other suggestions (such as exercise) and a few inexpensive supplements.

 

95% of pre-diabetic and early DM-II patients could halt & even reverse the progression of diabetes if they STRICTLY followed a dietary and exercise regimen. No drugs. This, ideally, is the treatment of choice. Sadly, many will progress further in the disease because of a lack of: compliance, compliance, compliance. It's a shame if the MD, DO, and PA all failed to go over this fact with your father. And maybe the ND had all the time in the world to sell him on it, but it's not as if the ND's treatment was something different than the widely understood medical knowledge on DM-II. The ND didn't have some miracle cure for your father, he just finally decided to comply with a diet & exercise regimen. The supplements probably added little to nothing to the mainstay treatment. Metformin is offered to patients BECAUSE compliance is so low; despite education, despite what providers tell patients. And because it works. We like to see EBM, not anecdotes.

 

______________

 

 

In general, I think people are utilizing NDs (for the time being) because there is just such an overload AND such high expectations placed on modern medical science. It seems that the public is no longer amazed with what modern medicine can do, but instead EXPECTANT that it will fix their problems. This just isn't possible in all cases, and I think it leads to certain people becoming frustrated and looking for the alternative "cure".

 

NDs are filling this dissatisfaction gap somewhat. The problem is the ND profession is not rooted in the rigors of the scientific method. Instead a lot of naturopathic medicine practiced based on unscientific claims and beliefs, word-of-mouth tx, and shamanistic principles. This is as dangerous to me as the alchemers of old. Sometimes they mixed a potion right and it, by chance, did wonders. Lots of times it did nothing, and sometimes it killed. Medical science, despite all we don't know, seeks out a very simple philosophy at its core: Does the treatment we provide produce a statistically measurable benefit for the patient and by what mechanism is that benefit achieved.

 

In the immortal words of Bones McCoy, "Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor not a miracle worker."

 

Beware the conjuror.

[zoopeda]

It amazes me the extent to which--even among the highly educated--people simply see what they want to see.  

 

You can pick and choose which parts of the previously presented arguments you care to refute (while ignoring others), but until you're able to take an honest open look, first hand, your opinions are worthless.  

 

Truth be told, I was a nay-saying skeptic at the outset, and it was not just one, but many, interactions with "CAM" providers that have showed me that while no practitioner is "perfect," many of those from reputable programs have something valuable to offer that very few (if any) MDs and PAs are able to provide.    

 

As I mentioned before (and has been, of course, ignored along with the rest): three doctors and a PA all recommended the same treatment--drugs with zero discussion regarding lifestyle and diet changes.  He had to be the EASIEST diabetic patient any of them could have hoped for.  He was all but begging for counseling to learn how to reverse his diabetes.  Three doctors.  One PA.  They all told him "it can't hurt to walk and diet [ie restrict calories], but you need to be on medication--that's what will keep you healthy."  And that is the standard of care.  He then went to one ND who kept him on Metformin until he had my dad adhere to a very comprehensive diet and exercise regimen before taking him off the drug.  As it turns out, that ND had taken 5 semesters of nutrition in ND school--a subject completely absent from MD and PA curricula.  It's easy to say "Oh, I could have done that--those MD/PAs were just lazy or busy."  BS.  The bottom line is that those MDs and PAs did not have the knowledge base or the confidence in "alternative treatment" to guide him down a more wholesome path to healing.  

It took me a long time to admit my ignorance to the possibility of healing "naturally" and the power of it.  Sure, write off my dad's case.  What about the other 4 or 5 I listed?  I've been getting PMs from people who are also expressing positive experience with NDs but are wanting to avoid public posting due to all the sharks circling, waiting for someone or something to knee-jerk react against.  I must be delusional to think we can teach and learn from each other on this forum.  

 

Go have coffee with an ND who seems very busy and successful in clinical practice--not some fringe guru, but someone who you might actually be able to tolerate for an hour.  Ask him or her all your tough questions or simply go see him next time you get sick.  Don't be snide, and just try to have a nice conversation and connect about some aspect of medicine you find intriguing.  Then and only then are any of your comments worth anything.  "Herbs are placebo."  Give me a break.  Is nutritional counseling placebo?  Herbs are foods.  We just finished a pharmacology lecture about how often goofy liver panels or warfarin bleeds are the result of undisclosed herbal supplements.  Placebo, I'm sure.  

 

Good grief.  

[PACdan]

You can pick and choose which parts of the previously presented arguments you care to refute (while ignoring others), but until you're able to take an honest open look, first hand, your opinions are worthless.

 

Rude. Also, as an adult, I hope you can understand that not every statement you make merits a response. I simply would not have the time. Secondly, your views on NDs are not magically superior to my own. I may very well have more interaction with alternative medicine and NDs than you.

 

The bottom line is that those MDs and PAs did not have the knowledge base or the confidence in "alternative treatment" to guide him down a more wholesome path to healing.

 

This is a dangerously vague, unqualified, blanket statement. MDs and PAs study plenty of alternatives for treatment, but they are all rooted in the rigors of the scientific method.

 

Then and only then are any of your comments worth anything.

 

Again rude, and falsely suggesting that somehow your own statements are more valid or informed than my own, based on your personal experiences versus my own.

 

________

 

You seem to hold alternative medicine and NDs in a very high regard based on your posts. Inferring from your tone and statements, why then did you choose to pursue PA (allopathic medicine) as a course of study and career, over say, naturopathic medicine? I'm honestly curious as to your reasoning.

[Maverick87]

Now this is an honest question, not trying to start fights.  I'm confused about this.  I live in the epicenter of Naturopathic medicine and I suspect that 60% of my patients have seen a naturopath and 20% have a naturopath as their PCP. If you read the Naturopathic Medicine school websites, they seem to have a rigorous requirement of a BS degree in the sciences with things like organic chemistry.  Then the program, according to them, is four very compressed years. They claim (this part I don’t agree with) that they study “Alopathic  Medicine” to the point of the level of an MD but then go “beyond that” to study natural medicine.

 

However, from what my patients tell me that their Naturopath told them, it seems, as a field, to have a very poor understanding of basic human physiology and anatomy.  I’m not talking about one philosophy of care vs another but basic science.

 

As part of their marketing, they always say that we (in evidence-based medicine) only treat the symptoms with dangerous drugs and surgery and they treat the actual root cause.  Sounds beautiful.

But here is an example of things I hear all the time that seem to point to this very poor level of education.

 

A patient of mine went to a Naturopath, who had been recommended by her mother. My patient suffers from severe chronic migraine (which, the pathophysiology has been well mapped out for over 10 years in evidence-based medicine).  This Naturopath first says they have a 100% cure rate. That alone should win them the Nobel prize in medicine if word got out.  Next the Naturopath tells them that headaches are always a symptom of toxins from the industrial age (pollution and the evil chemicals prescribed by “Western doctors”) in the body.  To prove this, the Naturopath had the patient take off her shoes. Then the Naturopath took off her shoes and placed her feet on top of the patient’s feet so she can feel her “electrical aura.”

 

Then the Naturopath opens a case of about 200 small vials.  They are all filled with "common toxins of the industrial age."  She held the bottles in front of the face of the patient one by one. When the Naturopath felt a disturbance in the patient’s aura, she would sit that toxin on the table.  Then when she was finished she had about six toxins identified as being in the patient’s body, causing her headaches.

 

The Naturopath then sold the patient about $200 (per month) of herbals that will "detoxify her body" and treat the real cause and make the headaches go away.  

 

So my question, I hear stories like this all the time. Many will try to say that this is an aberration but I don’t think so. So, are Naturopaths to be respected as well-educated providers that bring something good to the table, or do they understand the human body at the second grade level and believe in magic and get our patients to distrust us and go down rabbit hole after rabbit hole?  I won’t mention the word “con.” But what is the truth in this matter?

To counter your anecdote, I have one of my own.

 

A family friend was diagnosed with breast cancer (I think Stage 3). Her specialist told her that she had a good prognosis if she underwent chemo and radiation. She declined to do so (on the advice of her mother) and went to a Naturopath. They told her to take supplements. We thought she was crazy and told her that.

 

Turns out we were right. She died this year at age 32. By the time she conceded and decided to do the chemo/radiation, it was too late and she was told that there was nothing they could do.

 

Naturopaths are sketchy at best and dangerous at worst.

 

After all if naturopathic medicine was legit, then it wouldn't be alternative. It would just be medicine.

[zoopeda]

Rude. Also, as an adult, I hope you can understand that not every statement you make merits a response. I simply would not have the time. 

I was simply pointing out that of the 5 or so examples of successful treatment, you opted to dissect and oppose only one.  

 

 

This is a dangerously vague, unqualified, blanket statement. MDs and PAs study plenty of alternatives for treatment, but they are all rooted in the rigors of the scientific method.

 

I was simply pointing out that NDs study several years worth of nutrition in school, and MDs and PAs study essentially zero.  (This is why I chose to study nutrition before attending PA school.)  It's not an opinion.  Simply compare curricula.  

 

 

 

 

Again rude, and falsely suggesting that somehow your own statements are more valid or informed than my own, based on your personal experiences versus my own.

How many ND appointments have you been to?  I'll let you include immediate family as well.  Honestly curious.  If somehow you have lots of first hand experience to lean on, I'll withdraw my previous statement. 

 

 

 

You seem to hold alternative medicine and NDs in a very high regard based on your posts. Inferring from your tone and statements, why then did you choose to pursue PA (allopathic medicine) as a course of study and career, over say, naturopathic medicine? I'm honestly curious as to your reasoning.

 

I've already answered this above.  The jist: I already have a 4-year degree in Chinese medicine (which I actually chose, at the time, OVER naturopathic medicine and am glad I did), PA clinical training is VASTLY more substantial than ND clinical training (which is similar to the NP clinical training: 12 hrs a week, yadda yadda) (which is why I actually disagree with their plight to be classified as primary care providers and feel they should be licensed as allied healthcare providers), I'm not interested in being a fringe or "last resort" provider, and finally I'd like to be able to pay off my loans (which is not easy to do as a CAM practitioner out of a 4-year full-time (expensive) ND program).  But honestly, the big one is that I already have a significant CAM skill set (nutrition, herbs, acupuncture) and am really looking to grow as a primary care provider and someone who has a broader tool belt to simply offer options and an informed choice to my patients.  You may be disappointed to hear I received interviews at nearly every school I applied to (as it was explained to me at several) BECAUSE of my background in natural medicine.  It's not as crazy as loose canons on web forums might suggest if you actually make an appointment and try it for yourself...

[zoopeda]

To counter your anecdote, I have one of my own.

 

A family friend was diagnosed with breast cancer (I think Stage 3). Her specialist told her that she had a good prognosis if she underwent chemo and radiation. She declined to do so (on the advice of her mother) and went to a Naturopath. They told her to take supplements. We thought she was crazy and told her that.

 

Turns out we were right. She died this year at age 32. By the time she conceded and decided to do the chemo/radiation, it was too late and she was told that there was nothing they could do.

 

Naturopaths are sketchy at best and dangerous at worst.

 

After all if naturopathic medicine was legit, then it wouldn't be alternative. It would just be medicine.

 

Irrelevant.  In this example, the patient declined care before seeing the ND.  What about the ND treatment killed this patient?  We can't always understand the reasons patients make the choices they do.  But we can support them in those decisions once they've been made.  Sounds like the ND tried to offer whatever he or she had as a hopeful alternative to the rejected course of treatment.  Had the ND been the one to convince the patient to decline treatment, I'd be right there on your side.  But in this case, I fail to see your point. 

[jmj11]

Since I started this topic, I wanted to make a distinction between "non-pharmacological treatments" and snake oil. We use non-pharmacological treatments and those should always be used first.  Lifestyle changes, diet and exercise. There is certainly a place for supplements. I take Red Rice Yeast for slightly elevated cholesterol. I haven't read the studies with it but my PCP is convinced it works. I use every natural supplement and treatment that has any evidence in double blind studies for my patients.  These things are good and can be promoted by MD, DO, PA, NP or NDs.

 

The thing that I object to is snake oil. These are treatments that have no base in human physiology as we know it and have no supporting studies. I object even more when those who know nothing about the research dis those of us who based our treatments on the research. These people are most often NDs, Chiropractors but could be MDs, DOs, NPs (like a NP who was telling all her migraine patients that migraine is usually caused by a PFO) or PAs.

[Maverick87]

It amazes me the extent to which--even among the highly educated--people simply see what they want to see.  

 

You can pick and choose which parts of the previously presented arguments you care to refute (while ignoring others), but until you're able to take an honest open look, first hand, your opinions are worthless.  

 

Truth be told, I was a nay-saying skeptic at the outset, and it was not just one, but many, interactions with "CAM" providers that have showed me that while no practitioner is "perfect," many of those from reputable programs have something valuable to offer that very few (if any) MDs and PAs are able to provide.    

 

As I mentioned before (and has been, of course, ignored along with the rest): three doctors and a PA all recommended the same treatment--drugs with zero discussion regarding lifestyle and diet changes.  He had to be the EASIEST diabetic patient any of them could have hoped for.  He was all but begging for counseling to learn how to reverse his diabetes.  Three doctors.  One PA.  They all told him "it can't hurt to walk and diet [ie restrict calories], but you need to be on medication--that's what will keep you healthy."  And that is the standard of care.  He then went to one ND who kept him on Metformin until he had my dad adhere to a very comprehensive diet and exercise regimen before taking him off the drug.  As it turns out, that ND had taken 5 semesters of nutrition in ND school--a subject completely absent from MD and PA curricula.  It's easy to say "Oh, I could have done that--those MD/PAs were just lazy or busy."  BS.  The bottom line is that those MDs and PAs did not have the knowledge base or the confidence in "alternative treatment" to guide him down a more wholesome path to healing.  

 

It took me a long time to admit my ignorance to the possibility of healing "naturally" and the power of it.  Sure, write off my dad's case.  What about the other 4 or 5 I listed?  I've been getting PMs from people who are also expressing positive experience with NDs but are wanting to avoid public posting due to all the sharks circling, waiting for someone or something to knee-jerk react against.  I must be delusional to think we can teach and learn from each other on this forum.  

 

Go have coffee with an ND who seems very busy and successful in clinical practice--not some fringe guru, but someone who you might actually be able to tolerate for an hour.  Ask him or her all your tough questions or simply go see him next time you get sick.  Don't be snide, and just try to have a nice conversation and connect about some aspect of medicine you find intriguing.  Then and only then are any of your comments worth anything.  "Herbs are placebo."  Give me a break.  Is nutritional counseling placebo?  Herbs are foods.  We just finished a pharmacology lecture about how often goofy liver panels or warfarin bleeds are the result of undisclosed herbal supplements.  Placebo, I'm sure.  

 

Good grief.  

 

Good luck trying to convince type 2 diabetics to modify their lifestyle. There's a reason why they're diabetic in the first place.

 

Is it possible to convince them to chance? Sure. I recently had a patient with an A1C of close to 10 that is going blind from retinopathy and cataracts and has significant neuropathy. I've been seeing him monthly for 2 years and he never listens to me. He came to clinic on a particularly stressful day and I was probably a bit more blunt than I should have been (which is my personality). What I said made a difference, however. He lost 30 pounds in 2 months and we are tapering off his diabetic medication. His testosterone is back up to normal levels and he has a new pep in his step. He was actually one of the first patients where I feel like I actually made a difference because of my bluntness. I don't think that most providers would have said what I said lol.

 

In any event, this was an extremely rare case. I see diabetics daily, multiple times per day, and they tend to be a very noncompliant bunch.

 

 

Irrelevant.  In this example, the patient declined care before seeing the ND.  What about the ND treatment killed this patient?  We can't always understand the reasons patients make the choices they do.  But we can support them in those decisions once they've been made.  Sounds like the ND tried to offer whatever he or she had as a hopeful alternative to the rejected course of treatment.  Had the ND been the one to convince the patient to decline treatment, I'd be right there on your side.  But in this case, I fail to see your point. 

 

She did see the ND. ND told her to not do chemo and to take supplements. Then she died.

 

I do agree that supplements have some merit, however. I often advise patients to take them for various things. However, the issue is that supplements are highly unregulated and, therefore, you don't really know what (and how much) you're actually getting.

[Maverick87]

Since I started this topic, I wanted to make a distinction between "non-pharmacological treatments" and snake oil. We use non-pharmacological treatments and those should always be used first.  Lifestyle changes, diet and exercise. There is certainly a place for supplements. I take Red Rice Yeast for slightly elevated cholesterol. I haven't read the studies with it but my PCP is convinced it works. I use every natural supplement and treatment that has any evidence in double blind studies for my patients.  These things are good and can be promoted by MD, DO, PA, NP or NDs.

 

The thing that I object to is snake oil. These are treatments that have no base in human physiology as we know it and have no supporting studies. I object even more when those who know nothing about the research dis those of us who based our treatments on the research. These people are most often NDs, Chiropractors but could be MDs, DOs, NPs (like a NP who was telling all her migraine patients that migraine is usually caused by a PFO) or PAs.

Red rice yeast does control cholesterol. However, it is from a similar source as statins. So there's not a huge difference in between the two. I usually recommend red rice yeast to my patients that are dead set against taking prescription medications.

 

Personally, I do recommend supplements to my patients. I do believe that there is a time and place for them. I also believe that patients do benefit from chiropractors and acupuncturists. However, I also believe that traditional medicine works as well. It's really dependent on the patient and their exact situation.

[dmdpac]

Red rice yeast does control cholesterol. However, it is from a similar source as statins. So there's not a huge difference in between the two. I usually recommend red rice yeast to my patients that are dead set against taking prescription medications.

 

 

Only because it was specifically mentioned I think you'll find the information contained in the URL below interesting as it pertains to red yeast rice. Please note the points pertaining to the legal status of red yeast rice, FDA regulation of the product sold in the US and the mandated processing to remove the active cholesterol lowering ingredient.

 

https://nccih.nih.gov/health/redyeastrice

 

Please forgive the lack of an active link. I'm mobile and don't have the ability to link the URL.

[zoopeda]

 

She did see the ND. ND told her to not do chemo and to take supplements. Then she died.

 

This is a strange ending to the story; let's discuss.  

 

First, we need to find out if this "naturopath" was licensed.  You're probably aware that only 17 states (last I checked) license NDs and that in order to get a license, one must achieve certain standards (graduate from an accredited institution, etc etc).  This means that in 33 states right now, anybody--you, me, anybody--can call themselves a naturopath.  Likewise, in some states, NDs are licensed to order tests, diagnose, prescribe, etc.  In others, they do not have these rights and are simply "lifestyle counselors."  (CEUs, accreditation standards, etc all affect licensing standards by state.)  

 

So the next question is: in what state did this incident occur?  Was this person licensed to make the judgements he/she did?  Did this ND at least graduate from an accredited ND school?  If you answer one way, the story falls apart; if you answer the other, we very well might have malpractice here.  

 

Another issue to rule out is patient interest.  In our society, if a patient disagrees with or declines mainstream care, he/she is often viewed as either crazy, irresponsible, or having been coerced by someone who is.  I've met people who have survived cancer via radiation and chemo who have said if they have to do it again, they'd forgo those treatments.  Not my choice, but it is the patient's choice.  So what's the story?  Did this patient and her mother really feel set against chemo/radiation from the get-go, or were they all set to start treatment when this ND swooped in to change their minds?  Did this ND claim to be able to cure this patient?  Claim his/her treatments were more effective than the standard of care?  Was this patient initially open to radiation and chemo?  

 

If it turns out this ND was a graduate of an accredited school, licensed in a state allowing NDs to make these kinds of recommendations, and coerced a patient into alternative treatments, then obviously this should be an open and shut malpractice case.  Did the family sue?  Is this ND still in practice?  Or was there some other factor that helps better explain the series of events.  I'm truly interested in understanding the truth of this matter, but it seems to me that there's either more to this story or, had the family or state felt this ND had committed malpractice, he/she would have been held accountable by the state medical board and court system.  I just know when I see statistics like "15-25% of all physician diagnoses are incorrect" (via NPR last week) or "one of the leading causes of death in the US is medical treatment related death" (loaded statements, I realize), sometimes I get the sense that we're not always comparing apples to apples on this forum.  Regardless, if a practitioner--any practitioner--is caught harming patients, he/she should, no hesitation, be investigated swiftly and fairly to the full extent of the law.  If this person is still in practice, in a state that licenses NDs, there's a good chance he/she did not kill the patient in question (or, at the very least, the family was ok with the ND killing the patient--less likely, I'd imagine).  

[discogenic]

Why aren't NDs getting sued, losing licenses, and/or going to jail in large numbers if they act as irresponsibly and dangerously as some would suggest?

 

To me, it appears as though there's some hyperbole ("NDs will kill you") and over-generalization ("they will ALL kill you"), combined with a little turf protection ("only Western medicine can help people; don't even think about looking elsewhere").

 

I've been a chiropractor for many years and, believe me, I've heard it all.  Some of it is legit criticism, but much of it is wild speculation and uninformed opinions.

[PACdan]

Why aren't NDs getting sued, losing licenses, and/or going to jail in large numbers if they act as irresponsibly and dangerously as some would suggest?

 

To me, it appears as though there's some hyperbole ("NDs will kill you") and over-generalization ("they will ALL kill you"), combined with a little turf protection ("only Western medicine can help people; don't even think about looking elsewhere").

 

I've been a chiropractor for many years and, believe me, I've heard it all.  Some of it is legit criticism, but much of it is wild speculation and uninformed opinions.

 

You're asking quite a loaded question. "Large numbers" is quite hyperbole in itself. How many NDs are getting sued? How many are losing license or being reprimanded, proportional to their population? The numbers might not need to be that "large". Are there confounding variables that restrict these actions; such as looser governing boards, harder burdens of proof due to nebulous treatments, or attorneys not seeing NDs as prime lawsuit candidates when advising their clients? What are the demographics of their patient populations? It's already been stated that many don't take insurance; so this might bias the population one way or another. All that cannot be ignored in your one, "simple" question of where are all the droves of sued/censured NDs.

 

I don't think they're killing lots of people. I do, however, think they're doing very little for many patients. And I think that as they want to put on the white coat and call themselves doctors, and move into hospitals, and move into cancer treatment centers, and move into PCP positions; they want to do so under their own rules. I see this progression as totally unacceptable and dangerous. Make no mistake, they want the lines between themselves and modern medicine to blur. Because like it or not, it legitimizes them. If you want to practice medicine, you need to practice scientific medicine, submitted to the same standards, the same scrutiny, the same burdens of proof, and the same evaluations of efficacy of those you wish to be identified with.

 

To answer a previous questioned posed to me:

 

As a cancer survivor, I have seen false hope and bullshit treatments sold to vulnerable patients by "alternative" medicine. And it is the saddest, most gut-wrencing thing. Science based-researched and medical education allowed my doctor to know what gene translocated on what chromosome to cause my cancer, and subsequently how to better treat it. Does "alternative" or "naturopathic" medicine give us that? And don't say "oh well, that's not what alternative or naturopathic medicine is for..." because medical knowledge should be about the search for understanding, fact, and best evidence. You either have it or you don't.

[zoopeda]

Post deleted.  I targeted all my points of interest above already.  I'm out.  

[PACdan]

The goal of medicine over the past few centuries has been to move away from a system of personal claims and testimonials and towards one of evidence and aggregate data. Most of the support we have been presented here for "naturopathic" medicine as been presented in the manner of the former. If you want me, and I suspect others, to recognize NDs as comparable providers of human healthcare, I've given a very clear request multiple times: Present the data. Show us quality meta-analyses of the research on their training, treatments, and care outcomes. The same burden that MDs, DOs, and PAs face.

 

Nothing about my main concerns are based in emotion, or passion; just a search for evidence.

 

It's not up to us to prove a negative. "Prove that they're not good" is not the way it works. The burden of proof lies with the ones making the claims for their care & treatments. Support it with fact, not conjecture.

 

 

And now for relevant levity from the year 3,000:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3u2mBVFEHc