PA to DO in three years for cheap?? Please chime in.

[EMEDPA]

Lol and you'll probably make 3-4x what I make all month lol.

yup. about 6k for the week.

[demayette]

Thanks again everyone. The higher rank you get in the Army, the more bureaucracy and less clinical time you get. I have maybe one more duty assignment before I get sucked out of the clinic. I would rather go out to the guard and finish up 20 there while working civilian. Also, the year long deployments every couple years with JRTC, NTC and all required training throw in during the transition time really sucks.

 

As for the Army Baylor DHsc in Emed program, I wont do that. Essentially you are doing half of the Emed Physician residency and receiving a Phd at the end. The education would be great, but in the end, you are still a PA. Not really increasing scope of practice. You might as well go to med school instead. Its also a 2 for 1 trade i believe, so one would owe and additional 3 yrs. A colleague physician friend is an instructor at BAMC for the program. There is a 6 month program done through BAMC/SAMC in Emed that might be worth it. Its a TDY course, so no increase TIS.

 

USUHS is not that great of an idea. Like someone else mentioned, its a large service commitment. Its a military school, so you must conform to the AR 670 and every other regulation out there. It doesn't count towards retirement either. HPSP is a better option

 

Maverick, sounds like we are in the same predicament. I keep hearing about all the cons of being a physician, but find it hard to believe that PAs dont suffer from the same problems. When I was in school, PAs and Emed Docs had the same schedule, alternated charts and saw the same patient load. What makes being a Doc more stress full than a PA? It is true that reimbursement is becoming better for PAs, but in the end, I doubt PA pay will change that much. Maybe adjust for COLA, but never 1:1 match. I like your idea of working a year and then applying. Especially if I can get a job in rural Alaska working 2weeks on 2 weeks off. Ill probably look into this when Im done with the current deployment. It might enlighten me. 

 

As for residencies, 70% match is outstanding and 59% is pretty good. Internal medicine is not a bad option either. It leaves one open to fellowships down the road.

 

All in all, I still firmly believe that the PA profession is one, if not the best, career in the world.  I feel working in Emed is about the only time being a physician is worthwhile. You have no ceiling for capabilities and have the option of incorporating new procedures and publishing case studies with no barriers. Also, you never have someone hovering over you critiquing your work. You are consider a subject matter expert. Also, 120K/yr vs 300K/yr for basically the same work and responsibility. You could have the option of working part time and still make more. This would allow more time for academics, research and volunteering.

 

Fam/peds/gen internal has no benefit in my mind. PA is a much better route. Your scope is equivalent and pay is as well.180k vs 100k without any overhead. Surg and Sub-Spec it just way too much schooling, too much call and too many hours a week. Also, too much liability.

You have to take into account FMG or IMG  when they said independent applicants and these people don't do well on the match, hence the lower percentage... EM is NOT competitive for an average applicant as long as he/she is willing to go anywhere...

[demayette]

I just don't see full independence for PAs. Maybe I lack vision. I went back to med school and am slogging through residency working twice as many hours for half of my PA salary to gain independence.

I do support graduated autonomy for experienced PAs, but no way no how does a 27-month masters program with 12-15 mos rotations and no mandatory residency prepare anyone for independent practice. That's just dangerous.

Tell that to NPs!

[primadonna22274]

I have no qualms about saying the very same thing to NPs.

[PACProvider]

I do support graduated autonomy for experienced PAs, but no way no how does a 27-month masters program with 12-15 mos rotations and no mandatory residency prepare anyone for independent practice. That's just dangerous.

 

I do support graduated autonomy for experienced MDs, but no way no how does a 24 month medical education with 9 months standardized clerkships and 9 more months of boutique clerkships and no mandatory residency prepare anyone for independent practice in the state of Missouri. That's just dangerous. I just wish the physicians would say that themselves.

[jsfelder0417]

^ sorry I disagree. The OP will be getting free education literally. Would comes out with only $25K of total student loan vs 200-300+ K debt. At 50K/ yr w/ $25k student loan debt. That's pretty nice. He'll still be able to pay his student loan while in training. Very quickly. Let do the math. OP would loss 600k salary for the 6 yrs in school ( 3 yrs DO and 3 yrs residency). Let say, the OP did EM residency and became EP BC. ED doc starting salary is $350K/y. If the OP work smarter, he has the potential to make $600+/yr as ER doc. So the $600k loss of income could be replenish in a yr or two post residency. A Huge gain here. It will be a different story if say his student loan were 300-400k. Just my 2c

Even though it's not really adding to the thread, I feel compelled to speak on one point. The education provided by the GI Bill is not free. It makes me irate when people say that. I earned the GI Bill by sacrificing my youth. I spent my 21st birthday in the middle east wondering if I would see 22, while pounding the ground with an Airborne Infantry unit. I will never be the same person that I was before I went to war, and I carry some things that will haunt me for the rest of my life. I am sure you and most other people don't mean any harm, but saying the GI Bill comes free is incredibly disrespectful.

[PACdan]

Even though it's not really adding to the thread, I feel compelled to speak on one point. The education provided by the GI Bill is not free. It makes me irate when people say that. I earned the GI Bill by sacrificing my youth. I spent my 21st birthday in the middle east wondering if I would see 22, while pounding the ground with an Airborne Infantry unit. I will never be the same person that I was before I went to war, and I carry some things that will haunt me for the rest of my life. I am sure you and most other people don't mean any harm, but saying the GI Bill comes free is incredibly disrespectful.

 

Pretty sure the poster means "free" in the sense that it will be no additional educational costs incurred to the recipient to pursue this path. And is in no way implying that the recipient didn't earn said GI tuition. Service in the United States Armed Forces has been all voluntary since 1973.

[meatheadPA]

Even though it's not really adding to the thread, I feel compelled to speak on one point. The education provided by the GI Bill is not free. It makes me irate when people say that. I earned the GI Bill by sacrificing my youth. I spent my 21st birthday in the middle east wondering if I would see 22, while pounding the ground with an Airborne Infantry unit. I will never be the same person that I was before I went to war, and I carry some things that will haunt me for the rest of my life. I am sure you and most other people don't mean any harm, but saying the GI Bill comes free is incredibly disrespectful.

 

 As one has already put out, no out of pocket expense. I may be able to go to medical school "not costing any money". I too was a grunt(19D) before I was a PA. And currently, I am a paratrooper deployed once again over seas for close to a year. I havent celebrated a birthday in 3 years. Missed my wife's birthday twice. Missed multiple Christmases and I forgot what thanksgiving is. You arent the only special one to "miss your 21st birthday" and you definitely arent the last. There are probably hundreds on this forum alone. The GI bill is not your right, its an incentive. The federal government can pull it anytime. Dont forget that.

 

Webster's Dictionary

free

 adjective \ˈfrē\

: not costing any money

[jsfelder0417]

I don't recall saying that I was special, if that is what people got out of it then so be it. Maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought. To clarify, I was trying to point out that I feel the GI Bill is earned through sacrifice. Sure, the military is all-volunteer, but I had no real clue what I was getting myself into when I signed up at 17. I thought I did, but I wasn't even close. Yes, the GI Bill doesn't cost the individual any money, as was pointed out. Yes, I also realize that the GI Bill was not a right, but I do feel that I earned every penny that I used of it. I would hate to see what would happen if the gov't did renege on the GI Bill, though. Sorry for the confusion, and for hijacking the thread.

[Boatswain2PA]

Also, residencies pay around 55K a year and typically allow for moonlighting the final year of ER residency and could easily make up for the difference in PA pay with just a few shifts a month. The income loss would be similar to this:

6 years of medical school + res without salary of 100K/yr= 600K

Subtract pay and GI Bill living expense of 15K a year for 3 yrs and 55K a year for 3 yrs res = 210,000

 

600-210= 390K and then you could subtract the moonlight pa final year of at least 50K = 340K of loss of income (plus 6 great years of life!)

 

Im not to sure on the pay of ER BC Phys, but online it looks like 280-350k is the norm. Does this sound correct? If this is so, one could pay off the income loss in just a couple years. So before the age of 40 for me, I would break even.

 

Once again, however, the income difference is just a small part of it. I can live happily on 100-120K a year easily. Even what Im making now in the underpaid military isnt bad. A lot more than and trigger puller or line medic that is constantly in danger. 

 

The big benefit of my current situation is ZERO debt. Zero debt plus 100-120/yr is actually a comfortable income.

I was about to correct the earlier "math" presented here saying you would lose $600K in opportunity, but you beat me to it.  I think the math you presented here is much more accurate.  You can make up for your lost opportunity costs in as little as two years.

 

I was 30, and active duty, when I realized that I wanted to practice medicine (I'm a slow learner).  However the post 9/11 GI Bill wasn't created yet, and with my family situation at the time I couldn't just walk away from the military for six years for med school, so I had to wait another ten years until I could retire and go to PA school. 

 

Go for it, and maybe even consider staying in the reserves to make some additional money throughout. 

 

Lastly, while you can certainly live comfortably with $100-$120K/year, it's nice having more.  Like Emed said, pick up a few less shifts to spend time with your family, or set up a scholarship for your kids, your neices/nephews, donate your time/money to a free clinic, etc.  If you have more than you need, it's always a great feeling to (voluntarily) share it with people who need it (and would appreciate it).

[Maverick87]

I was about to correct the earlier "math" presented here saying you would lose $600K in opportunity, but you beat me to it.  I think the math you presented here is much more accurate.  You can make up for your lost opportunity costs in as little as two years.

 

I was 30, and active duty, when I realized that I wanted to practice medicine (I'm a slow learner).  However the post 9/11 GI Bill wasn't created yet, and with my family situation at the time I couldn't just walk away from the military for six years for med school, so I had to wait another ten years until I could retire and go to PA school. 

 

Go for it, and maybe even consider staying in the reserves to make some additional money throughout. 

 

Lastly, while you can certainly live comfortably with $100-$120K/year, it's nice having more.  Like Emed said, pick up a few less shifts to spend time with your family, or set up a scholarship for your kids, your neices/nephews, donate your time/money to a free clinic, etc.  If you have more than you need, it's always a great feeling to (voluntarily) share it with people who need it (and would appreciate it).

I looked into the reserves as a potential option. APAP runs all year round. It would definitely possible to do the one weekend per month duty, but the 2 week training every year isn't feasible with the program schedule, unfortunately. That definitely would have been a nice additional income though.

[primadonna22274]

One of my APAP classmates was NG. He made it work. I think they actually worked out something where his drill time counted as a rotation somewhere (military rotation). Don't let that be the reason you don't pursue something you're interested in.

[Joelseff]

Don't the GI bill cost 1200 dollars? I remember them taking out 100 dollars out of every month's paycheck for it... Mine expired so I never used it. Can't get that 1200 back either. ????

[Joelseff]

It might've been 50 bucks per check x2 or something... I forget... Getting old lol

[Boatswain2PA]

Joel - the Montgomery GI bill cost $100/month for your first 12 months.  If you didn't sign up for it at boot camp, you couldn't ever get it.  The post 9/11 GI bill is a VAST, VAST, VAST improvement over the montgomery GI bill.  They will not only pay state university level funding for 3 years, but also give you housing allowance at the E-5 level for the 3 years.  That's a HUGE benefit. 

[Joelseff]

Joel - the Montgomery GI bill cost $100/month for your first 12 months. If you didn't sign up for it at boot camp, you couldn't ever get it. The post 9/11 GI bill is a VAST, VAST, VAST improvement over the montgomery GI bill. They will not only pay state university level funding for 3 years, but also give you housing allowance at the E-5 level for the 3 years. That's a HUGE benefit.

Dang that is much better. I got out in the 90's so didn't get that. Sucks for me.

[Maverick87]

Bump.

 

I spoke to a VA benefits adviser today and was told that I was misinformed: I AM eligible for 100% GI benefits.

 

Based on my calculations, that would cover a total of about 105K out the estimated 180k COA. That, combined with my savings will pretty much make it debt free.

 

Also, apparently the GI bill covers you in residency as well. So if I did a PA residency, I would be able to get the housing stipend added on monthly to my low pay, which would actually probably even it out lol.

 

Decisions, decisions....lol

[Boatswain2PA]

I am pretty sure the benefits are only for 3 years. You will want to checkbthat, but even if it is its still worth it. Go for it!!

[Will352ns]

Correct, it is for 36 months only.  This is my last semester and I just ran out....luckily if you run out during a semester like I have, they cover until the end of that semester. 

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

If you contribute to the Montgomery GI bill, that can be converted into an extra 12 months of post 9/11 GI bill.

[Maverick87]

If you contribute to the Montgomery GI bill, that can be converted into an extra 12 months of post 9/11 GI bill.

I thought the same thing, but that's actually not true anymore. It's only true of vets that served before the GI bill was instituted in 2009 (and, therefore, had the option of the post 9/11 bill and the montgomery bill).

 

So you can't actually have the 4 years UNLESS you began service (or were in the service) before the post 9/11 went into effect.

 

I just had this explained to me by a very knowledgeable VA benefits adviser.

[Maverick87]

I am pretty sure the benefits are only for 3 years. You will want to checkbthat, but even if it is its still worth it. Go for it!!

Yeah that's true. I meant that I'm thinking of either med school or the PA residency (not both).

 

Interestingly, the GI bill will cover your living expenses during residency (if that's where you choose to use it).

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

I thought the same thing, but that's actually not true anymore. It's only true of vets that served before the GI bill was instituted in 2009 (and, therefore, had the option of the post 9/11 bill and the montgomery bill).

 

So you can't actually have the 4 years UNLESS you began service (or were in the service) before the post 9/11 went into effect.

 

I just had this explained to me by a very knowledgeable VA benefits adviser.

Oh, thanks. Excuse me while I go choke my 1200 dollars out of an E6 GI bill advisor who has misinformation.

[Maverick87]

Oh, thanks. Excuse me while I go choke my 1200 dollars out of an E6 GI bill advisor who has misinformation.

You can still try to use it and see what happens.

 

Who knows. It may work. Check this thread out: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/important-info-for-new-accessions-gi-bill.485739/

 

Either way, the post 9/11 bill is a better deal in most cases.

[sas5814]

On 1/18/2015 at 9:48 PM, Joelseff said:

Don't the GI bill cost 1200 dollars? I remember them taking out 100 dollars out of every month's paycheck for it... Mine expired so I never used it. Can't get that 1200 back either. ????

Depends on the GI bill. I was old school...all free no contribution on my part. That ended in Jan of 77 though I don't remember exactly what it changed to. Then several years later it became a "match" program. You put in a dollar and Uncle puts in 5. I was still using my original GI bill 12 years after I retired. It was pretty sweet.