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There is always so much emotion in this topic.  This emotion almost always leads to speculation that may or may not have data to support it.  As a PA and Dean, I prefer to approach this from topic bas

I can totally buy the argument that changing the profession's name from "Physician Assistant" to "Physician Associate" would over time help public perception of our profession.     I cannot, and nev

could not disagree with you any more - you seem to not understand where the profession and health care is going and I know in the past you have tried to defend the AAPA's lack of action which has left

the physician shortage is very SPECIALTY and LOCATION depend. And no matter how many PAs and MDs are not looking to work in that setting. Many would leave medicine and work in healthcare investment banking or consulting before they took one of those jobs. 

 

Do you really think these PA schools have just 50 students ? They are packing the seats. Many schools have close to 100 students a year. Many schools have satellite campuses.

 

But outside of this I agree with what you are saying overall. I would support that option for the PA profession. And I donated to PA for tomorrow in part based on this fwd thinking. 

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Not to agree or disagree with anyone here.....these other professions mentioned all have autonomous practice privileges (with or without Doctorate).  A doctorate level degree presented to PA's will not change the fact that we are tied to the ankle of physicians therefore can never truly advance like these other professions have.  What we need more than initials after our names is an actual change in the name of the profession and legislation passed that allows us to work in an autonomous fashion as do PT's, NP's, SLP's OT's, etc.  Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on this.

 

We definitely need to be unshackled from the ankle of the physician.  I still do  not understand nor will I ever understand why so many PAs are afraid of autonomous practice and an autonomous license and like being assistants.  Can anyone enlighten me? Title and legislation changes  needed.  Which state has the guts to try?

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I still do not understand nor will I ever understand why so many people who dislike the name PA, and desire autonomous practice become PAs in the first place. 

I became interested in this career when I was 24 in 1991, finally achieved this in 1998. Time passes, experiences gained. I see the world with different eyes now. What was tolerable and/or desired is no longer. I realize that my practice is no different than others and realistically what is separating me from them was a different process but we both ended up in the same spot eventually. At the same time, there is another similar to me, that followed a different process and somehow ends up ahead because their organization was more vocal, knew what they wanted and put their hard earned money in place to get it.

On a personal level, I am struck by the irony and contradiction, that the NP who practices autonomously sends her patients to me in the ED whom can't. Same goes for the BC IM doc who asks me to handle his midafternoon train wreck that I transfer to the Medical Ctr ICU, intubated, pressors but resuscitated by the ED team under MY direction. Last, my SP, good guy, who flat out tells myself and my colleagues, yes you all practice at the level of BC physicians, that is my expectation and you all reach it.

So I am no one's assistant and I already practice autonomously in reality. Someone should recognize me for what I really do.

Regards

G Brothers PA-C

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RichardLPeeA, on 23 Sept 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:snapback.png

I still do not understand nor will I ever understand why so many people who dislike the name PA, and desire autonomous practice become PAs in the first place.

all of my PA role models practiced autonomously, often without a physician present. I was told in pa school in the early 90s that by 2005 we would likely be physician associates and have a bridge to becoming physicians. well, 1/2 way there. it's gonna happen.

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We definitely need to be unshackled from the ankle of the physician.  I still do  not understand nor will I ever understand why so many PAs are afraid of autonomous practice and an autonomous license and like being assistants.  Can anyone enlighten me? Title and legislation changes  needed.  Which state has the guts to try?

 

If this is Paula from MI, then we should start here with our state :) 

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^^^^ Yes it is Paula from MI.  We had a bill and it languished in the Senate and the desk of the Governor.  We need to submit it again.  It was a re-writing of the public health code.  Let's join forces with the new AAPA Pres since he is a Michigander!

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^^^^ Yes it is Paula from MI.  We had a bill and it languished in the Senate and the desk of the Governor.  We need to submit it again.  It was a re-writing of the public health code.  Let's join forces with the new AAPA Pres since he is a Michigander!

Paula,  PM me and let me know how and when I can help.  I'm a newb to the profession, but have been around awhile in other capacities.  

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I have a Bachelors in Health Services Management, so Masters will be my limit to be a PA....I only want to continue my education to renew my CMEs in the PA field....I'm in enough debt with student loans, who cares about PhD, I don't...

 

that might change when you get through 5-10 years of practice and realize the limitations that are on you

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NCCPA, take note, the Pharmacy bubble is popping, right at the heels of all the unemployed and indebted JD's.

 

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119634/pharmacy-school-crisis-why-good-jobs-are-drying

 

Meanwhile, Forbes just listed PA as the #1 Master's Degree for jobs, again. How's that PharmD degree looking now?

 

I understand the frustration and lack of respect that comes with not having that doctoral degree when every other healthcare professional has it, but ultimately the decision to move towards a doctorate should be based on sound economic and business principles (something that medical professionals are notoriously bad at). 

 

I don't think opening more PA schools is necessarily a bad thing, as long as quality is maintained. I'm talking about stringent quality controls. Medicine is not a game. You can graduate a crummy lawyer who isn't likely to do much damage, but this is not the case in medicine. If we start churning out poorly prepared graduates from fly by night PA schools our whole profession will suffer, not to mention patients. It's something that concerns me with the proliferation of new PA schools in the pipeline. As I understand it, it's becoming harder and harder for schools to find good rotations for these students. That seems like the rate limiting step to me. How can this be overcome?

 

The issue of PA residency is another head scratcher. I did my surgery rotation at Norwalk, so I saw how a great PA residency could operate, but from my understanding, the program operated on pretty thin margins. It's hard to set one up and keep it running. MD/DO residencies are funded by Medicare, but for years congress has refused to increase funding for new programs. I think the issue there has been reluctance to fund more specialist training when the need has been primary care. I think PA's may able to play this angle to get funding for primary care residencies. What do you guys think?

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Ouch.  Just a simple cut and paste of PA to replace pharmacist and you might be reading a 2020 headline for our profession.  I don't think the doctoral degree really had anything to do with it, just raising the years of education did it.  Six years is also what PAs get, with equivalent debt.  The proliferation of programs is exactly the same.    

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NCCPA, take note, the Pharmacy bubble is popping, right at the heels of all the unemployed and indebted JD's.

 

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119634/pharmacy-school-crisis-why-good-jobs-are-drying

 

Meanwhile, Forbes just listed PA as the #1 Master's Degree for jobs, again. How's that PharmD degree looking now?

 

I understand the frustration and lack of respect that comes with not having that doctoral degree when every other healthcare professional has it, but ultimately the decision to move towards a doctorate should be based on sound economic and business principles (something that medical professionals are notoriously bad at).

The problem is the number of grads is outpacing the number of jobs. We'll be facing the same problem soon regardless of what degree is offered.

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The problem is the number of grads is outpacing the number of jobs. We'll be facing the same problem soon regardless of what degree is offered.

 

How true is this really?  Isn't there still a significant shortage of practitioners overall in the states?  I don't see this becoming a reality for a long time.

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I don't see a shortage locally

 

in fact with 4 programs with in a 1.5 hour drive you would think so - but we are hurting for providers locally, so much so the hospital is now paying for RN to become NP for a 2 yr commit...

 

 

 

I think there is a HUGE pent up demand that is 'secret' but there

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Hospitals need to pay for PA to MD/DO programs for a 3 year commitment.  I've never understood why hospitals offer the RN to NP programs and don't offer it to people like RT to PA, or Paramedic to PA, or RN to PA?  Must be the nurse administrators?

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Not sure why a hospital would need to create a hospitalist MD shortened program for a PA. There is no shortage of physician hospitalists. 

 

Some hospitals or locations may have a shortage ...but once again this are the places people will not work no matter how many PA or MD exist. 

 

We do not need any medic or RT to PA program in hospitals ... there is a PA program popping up on every street corner. The capacity of many of these programs to teach PAs is poor. Enough is enough. STOP encouraging the ruin of our profession. We need our foundation PA programs like duke and GW to expand and promote our profession and develop skilled faculty/researchers and leadership. 

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What I meant is hospitals to pay for the tuition for medic to PA, etc. just like they pay for RN to NP.  Why exclude the PA profession and only support the tuition of RNs to NPs? 

 

Maybe hospital is the wrong entity but in my neck of the woods the RNs get their tuition paid for by the large system of clinics and hospitals in this area.  But not for PA school only NP school

 

Seems discriminatory.

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I don't think we need to go to the doctoral level for reasons of respect or public acceptance.  The reason that is very important and was mentioned early in this discussion was how ignorant policy writers will negatively affect things like our scope of practice and reimbursement because we are not "doctoral level" clinicians.  This will happen.  And no your scope of practice is not ultimately determined by your board of medicine or your supervising physician... it gets determined by your hospital's policies and yuck Medicare (because your hospital will bend over and do whatever the office of Medicare tells them to do).  It's great when NPs in your state can do things that you can't because of wording of guidelines.

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it's actually an MS level program with an optional DPAM postgrad residency. I know the director.

 This is interesting. I see it's for Lynchburg graduates only... I wonder if that will ever open up? 9 months of residency than a doctorate? Deal. I wonder if this "residency" is paid?

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