Drexel vs DeSales

[zoopeda]

So here's a huge choice between two great programs.  Here's how I see it, and I'd really like some insight into which might be the better program. 

Thank you!

 

PANCE: 5 year average pass rate, first time takers

DeSales 100% - literally best in the nation

Drexel 95% - above average by two points, also excellent

 

Med School Affiliation

DeSales: none.  Perhaps this means more individualized attention, but it also means fewer "resources" in terms of facilities, faculty, research, etc. 

Drexel: obvious affiliation.  This means top notch everything and constant contact with medical students.  Not sure if this also means PA students could get "lost" in the mix of a big medical school...

 

Anatomy Lab

DeSales: Cadavers, beautiful lab, students dissect, modeled after Drexel lab

Drexel: Famous lab, probably fewer students per cadaver, probably comparable w DeSales

 

Simulators

How important are these, at either school?  Very impressive to a novice...

 

Clinical Rotations

DeSales: Begins first year, every Friday.  Huge plus.  Huge network.  All rotations commutable (local) unless requested otherwise.

Drexel: Massive medical network.  Most rotations local.  Massive inner city hospitals offer exceptional ER and trauma exposure.  First year exposure? 

 

Campus

DeSales: absolute middle of nowhere.  literally not even a town where the school is.  definitely least attractive aspect for my family.  

Drexel: absolute depths of inner city Philadelphia.  rough around the edges, to say the least.  (dangerous?)  I imagine we'd live in the outskirts.  

 

Applicant age/experience

DeSales: I got the sense that the average HCE and age was lower here.  A lot of recent grads and young students.  

Drexel: Perhaps older, or at least more mature, students.  I don't have any real data to back this up other than personal observation. 

 

Establishment: 

DeSales: 17 years.  Respectable.  Although the much-revered director left a few years ago just as they were preparing to double the class size from 40 to 80.  Chief medical officer left around that time too, as I understand.  Concern? 

Drexel: One of the oldest schools in the nation.  Impeccable, as I understand. 

 

Culture

DeSales: Catholic school.  Crosses and bishop portraits everywhere.  I don't identify as Catholic or have much interest or respect for the Catholic establishment.  I really can't predict how much doctorine will make its way into the DeSales curriculum.  Perhaps this concern completely unfounded (in terms of the actual training), but at the very least (to a non-Catholic) it would be an adjustment. 

Drexel: pretty much the opposite.  Medical school.  Probably atheistic leaning (not particularly my cup of tea either, but a lot less in-your-face).  Very intense academics.  Frankly, intimidating.  (Are the Anatomy fail rates truly as they are rumored?)  Is the competition cut-throat among PA students?

 

Tuition and Fees (whole 2ish-year program) 

DeSales: $72,000

Drexel: $82,000

So there you have it--a very off-the-cuff list of comparison between the two schools.  Any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you!!!

[dmdpac]

Drexel 95% - above average by two points, also excellent

Some of that 5% is comprised of people who completed the program and didn't sit for PANCE. At least, that's how it was described to us by some of the admin folks. I'm not privy to how they specifically report their numbers.

 

 

 

 

Drexel: obvious affiliation. This means top notch everything and constant contact with medical students. Not sure if this also means PA students could get "lost" in the mix of a big medical school...

 

 

Not as much constant contact as you think. The only interaction outside of rotations that I had with medical students was if I ran into someone I knew who was attending medical school.

 

 

 

 

Drexel: Famous lab, probably fewer students per cadaver, probably comparable w DeSales

 

 

We did not do dissections. The cadavers are there in various stages of dissection. We did get cadaver lab time once a week (Friday mornings). Much of the anatomy "lab" work is done, or at least was done during my time there, on the Primal Pictures DVD. This is one of the few areas that left me disappointed about the Drexel program.

 

 

How important are these, at either school? Very impressive to a novice...

These are actually pretty cool. They offer good experiences and opportunity to practice without actually hurting anybody. These are being more widely available and used in academic centers.

 

 

 

 

Drexel: Massive medical network. Most rotations local. Massive inner city hospitals offer exceptional ER and trauma exposure. First year exposure?

 

 

You will start interviewing patients in the hospital during your first quarter. You will spend time in the hospital every quarter of the didactic year. It's H&P type stuff. Lots of note writing. You won't do time in the ER or trauma areas during your first year. I don't know any PA student in my class, in the class before me, or the class after me that did their ER rotation in Hahnemann's ER.

 

 

 

 

Drexel: absolute depths of inner city Philadelphia. rough around the edges, to say the least. (dangerous?) I imagine we'd live in the outskirts.

 

 

It's called Center City. It's not bad. Yes, it's a big city. Yes, it has the same problems as any big city out there. I lived very close to campus in Center City and didn't have any trouble. Lots of good restaurants in town. Lots to do. Living outside the city will probably be cheaper and there is public transit available to get into town (SEPTA commuter rail).

 

 

Drexel: Perhaps older, or at least more mature, students. I don't have any real data to back this up other than personal observation.

Youngest in my class was 21-22. Oldest was 45+. Diverse group. Good mix of backgrounds.

 

 

 

Drexel: One of the oldest schools in the nation. Impeccable, as I understand.

There is a reason they've earned their reputation.

 

 

 

Drexel: pretty much the opposite. Medical school. Probably atheistic leaning (not particularly my cup of tea either, but a lot less in-your-face). Very intense academics. Frankly, intimidating. (Are the Anatomy fail rates truly as they are rumored?) Is the competition cut-throat among PA students?

The Drexel program is run through the University's college of Nursing and Health Professions and not the medical school.

 

I don't recall any religion or religious leanings.

 

Academics are, indeed, intense. Anatomy is hard. Competition? There were some in my class who were competitive. The people I hung out with were not. You pick your friends. The rest? Well, why worry about them? Worry about you.

 

I didn't go to DeSales. Can't help you with anything about them. PM me if you have other questions. All the best in your choice.

[zoopeda]

 

We did not do dissections. The cadavers are there in various stages of dissection. We did get cadaver lab time once a week (Friday mornings). Much of the anatomy "lab" work is done, or at least was done during my time there, on the Primal Pictures DVD. This is one of the few areas that left me disappointed about the Drexel program.

 

I'm shocked.  At my DeSales interview, they bragged about how much of their Anatomy lab had been copied directly from the "famous" Drexel lab.  DeSales students conduct dissections--essential, according to the doctors I've asked about this.  I can't believe Drexel PA students don't dissect their cadavers.  Thanks for taking the time to respond! 

[zoopeda]

Some of that 5% is comprised of people who completed the program and didn't sit for PANCE. At least, that's how it was described to us by some of the admin folks. I'm not privy to how they specifically report their numbers.

 

They don't seem to be able to provide stats regarding PA grads who decide not to take the PANCE.  (I can't imagine 5% decide not to get a license at the end of the program.) 

[PASASM92]

I would do Desales. I did undergrad at Drexel. I shadowed a Drexel grad. I also work with a PA from DeSales. He speaks very highly of DeSales. It is just a gut feeling, and what I would choose! Good luck. Certainly a good "problem" to have.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dmdpac]

I'm shocked.  At my DeSales interview, they bragged about how much of their Anatomy lab had been copied directly from the "famous" Drexel lab.  DeSales students conduct dissections--essential, according to the doctors I've asked about this.  I can't believe Drexel PA students don't dissect their cadavers.  Thanks for taking the time to respond!

 

Believe it. While I was there the PT students did the actual dissections. Cadavers can be limited in supply, condition and suitability. They do their best based on what they have available.

 

 

They don't seem to be able to provide stats regarding PA grads who decide not to take the PANCE.  (I can't imagine 5% decide not to get a license at the end of the program.)

If I recall correctly, and it's been a little while since this conversation took place so I may be wrong about this, pass rates were reported after a certain amount of time since graduation. The numbers reported were based on who took and passed out of the entire class. If someone didn't test within that given time frame they were still included in the calculations. For example, if four people out of a class of 75 didn't test (for whatever reason) within 90 days of graduation then you have a 95% pass rate.

 

There were people in the class ahead of me who didn't test for many months after graduation. The reasons were varied. It does, however, happen that people graduate and for whatever reason either don't pass or don't test. With a class of 75 or more it only takes three or four people to hit that 5% mark.

[Koppma]

What Dmd pac said about Drexel is true.  I am there now and about to go on rotations.  It's a great program, but it all depends what you put into it.  We don't do anything with the med students.  The only thing we have with the med school is that some of the doctors who teach in there program will come and give us lectures on certain topics.  It is a mix of pa staff, guest pa, and doctors who come and teach the class.  Various pharmacist at temple, jefferson, and philly u come and teach pharm.  Last year we did one ground rounds case with the PT students.  We still use the primal dvd, but this years incoming class will use an online version of it and not the dvd.  Our class is currently 64 students.  Yes 75 new students come in and whatever from the year before that failed, medical issues, or people that did the part time program.  So really you have about 85- 90 people start.

 

 

 

[Koppma]

Is the students at Drexel cut throat?  No.  Really its the opposite.  We all try to help each other out.  We have a facebook page where we share notes and someone will make quizlets for us.  Yes there are clicks and groups, but we all get along.  There might be one or two cut throats, but I don't see them.

 

Avg age I say is about 25 to 26.  The youngest is about 21 and the oldest right now is in their late 30's.  This is who is currently in the program.  We did have a gentlemen in his 40's in the 2nd qrt.

 

[peeayyes]

i'm a drexel student and after the experience i've had there i would choose desales (or any other school).  they make it seem like it's a great program, but i (and quite a few other classmates) couldn't be more disappointed.  i wish i had chosen another school... however at this point i am just trying to make the best of it and count down to graduation.  my best advice would be to seek out and talk to a variety (young, old, 1st yr, 2nd yr, local, relocated) of students currently at that school and ask them how it really is (alums from 20 yrs ago won't be able to give you the current experience and of course the students they choose to be student advisors for interviews and open houses will be people they know will only say good things about the program).  also, be sure to ask whatever school you decide to attend about their attrition rates.  drexel may have a good PANCE rate but we started with 75+ students in our class and over 20 ended up failing out the first year and were faced with taking LOA's, finding part time jobs, and having to repay their loans because they are no longer considered students.  i wish i had done more research before deciding which program to enroll in.  things are not always as they seem, so i'm leaving this comment because i would have appreciated this advice from students before me.  just something to consider before making a life changing decision.  

[Guest]

^that is a bit exaggerated.. 

[dmdpac]

One thing I've noticed among PA students from different schools is that they usually have the same complaints about their program. It doesn't matter where you are you're probably going to run into the same issues inflated only by the stress of school.

 

Peeayyes I'm curious to your specific complaints. Nothing you noted had either anything directly related to you or was specific to your individual concerns.

[EMEDPA]

I really enjoyed my time at Drexel, yes, it was 20 years ago. I know the director fairly well. he taught my em class back in the day. lots of current faculty were either there when I was there or were my classmates. As far as I can tell I got the best em prep possible in PA school: 27 weeks of em, peds em, and trauma surgery + 27 weeks of primary care rotations. I did rotations with some of the top trauma surgeons and peds em docs in the country. I would go there again if I had to repeat pa school.

[zoopeda]

If current attrition is really over 25%--or even over 10 or 15%--that's a huge red flag and deal breaker all by itself. I actually had confirmed the attrition rate previously and withdrew my application to Drexel last week. Why risk it when DeSales loses one or two students per year and has an otherwise 100% PANCE rate over the last 5+ years? Sounds like the Drexel program has changed from 20 years ago...

[dmdpac]

I was a student and graduated more recently than EMEDPA. If those numbers are correct, and I don't know if they are or not, then it's a one-off event. It certainly isn't the norm.

 

A program can't tolerate repeated numbers like that on a year to year basis. It raises questions with the program itself, the university, the ARC-PA and more. Most programs probably don't make big changes from year to year. They wouldn't have become successful with the reputation they have if this were the norm (if the numbers reported are accurate).

 

Without verification of the numbers and reasoning behind it it's impossible to make a judgment of any kind. It's hard to make decisions based on supposition but ultimately you have to make your own decision. Like EMEDPA I was quite happy with my Drexel experience. I had similar EM preparation time in rotations. I would choose the program again.

 

All the best in your pursuits.

[EMEDPA]

in my class of 80 we had 3 who failed a class and had to retake it the next year so they graduated a year late. no one failed out. of those 80, 2 failed boards . both passed on second attempt. this was the first year in a decade that didn't have a 100% pass rate. back when I applied to PA school in the early 90s there were 52 programs. the informal ranking of best programs was

1. Duke

2. Hahnemann/Drexel

3. Yale

4. George Washington

[zoopeda]

If we take the "number of first time test takers" as equivalent to the number of students that graduated, the 5-year PANCE stats give us a rough idea of the number of graduates.  The number of first-time takers, averaged over 5 years, has been 74 per year (out of 80 matriculated).  That's an 8% attrition, assuming everyone who finished the program went on to take the PANCE.  But Drexel is extremely unique in that they offer a 3-year option.  Whisperings from several current students indicate several (and perhaps "many") students are forced to switch to the 3-year track after failing (typically) anatomy.  This means "several" or "many" of the average 74 are actually drop-outs from the previous year's class, thus padding the attrition numbers--possibly considerable.  (A drop from 2 to 3 year track would not actually affect accreditation standing since those students--even if it's 10 or 12 per year--are still completing the program.)  I actually chose another program over Drexel for a handful of other reasons, several not having much to do with Drexel specifically.  But I have, for curiosity sake, started to try to get to the bottom of a few key numbers for recent years: % students who both matriculate into the 2-year program AND successfully graduate from the 2-year program, % students who start in 2-year and drop to 3, and % students who simply leave the school each year.  Also interesting would be % students who fail (and have to retake) anatomy.  Definitely important to research via credible sources before taking as fact, but Pee's post is not the first time Drexel's potential attrition issue has been brought to my attention.  If anyone learns of some more solid facts here, please post!

[EMEDPA]

anatomy is a tough course there but taught very well by an MD,PhD anatomist. I took a+p as an undergrad at the university of ca. The cadaver portion was much better at UC, the didactic was much better at hahnemann/drexel.

I started and finished via the 3 yr pathway there and had a great experience.

[db_pavnp]

How common is it for programs to offer students who struggle or fail a class an alternate way forward?

[EMEDPA]

How common is it for programs to offer students who struggle or fail a class an alternate way forward?

most places you fail one class you are on probation and can repeat the course. fail course #2 and you are gone.

[zoopeda]

How common is it for programs to offer students who struggle or fail a class an alternate way forward?

So far during this application cycle, I've discovered two schools of thought among programs. Some schools (I believe DeSales and Drexel are examples of these) set a firm minimum passing score and firm rules around number of allowed failed classes, minimal "makeup" or exam retake options, etc. I think this school of thought serves to motivate students by setting a high bar and high pressure to succeed. It's also less forgiving to those who don't pass the first time around. The second school of thought I've discovered (OHSU and Pacific U are examples of these) use the fail threshold as more of a guideline and offer retake options to those who don't fail by much the first time around. For example, OHSU requires students to retake any exam on which a score of less than 80% is earned. The new score cannot then exceed 80% (on record), but if a student scores between 70 and 80 on an exam, they have the chance to make up up to 5% back by retaking. Pacific has a similar policy, but the retake is a group exercise and tutoring is available as well. This approach seems to acknowledge the exam as a learning opportunity in and of itself and encourages students to continue to improve once the exam has passed. The possible drawback would be that students perceive this as a chance to slack every now and then. Attrition from these programs is slim to none, yet pance passage is comparable. What's interesting is outcomes: OHSU has an even more impressive PANCE rate than Drexel (only 3 students have failed to pass during first attempt in the history of their program) yet their method is the more flexible type. I think it all depends on the kind of learner you are, but there are different approaches out there. The interview is a great place to probe more into the school's educational philosophy compared with measurable outcomes.

[EMEDPA]

Drexel has been around almost 30 years longer than ohsu....in the grand scheme of things ohsu is still a newer program.

[dmdpac]

For example, OHSU requires students to retake any exam on which a score of less than 80% is earned. The new score cannot then exceed 80% (on record), but if a student scores between 70 and 80 on an exam, they have the chance to make up up to 5% back by retaking.

Drexel had a similar policy in place when I was a student there just a few years ago. The numbers required for passing were different as was the max possible score on a retest but the policy was there.

 

Keep in mind, too, that even though one starts school life doesn't stop. There were a couple people in my class who dropped to the part time option (strangely enough this was *after* the first quarter which included anatomy) for a variety of life events including family problems, deaths of loved ones, divorce et cetera. Looking at why people might leave a program or change their status within a program can't simply be limited to academic considerations.

 

I think this school of thought serves to motivate students by setting a high bar and high pressure to succeed. It's also less forgiving to those who don't pass the first time around.

This is graduate level education. In all fairness if a student can't hack it at this level then that student really shouldn't be there.

[zoopeda]

Drexel has been around almost 30 years longer than ohsu....in the grand scheme of things ohsu is still a newer program.

 

Don't be so defensive of your alma mater.  I'm sure Drexel continues to pump out some excellent PAs.  I'm also sure OHSU does as well.  They've managed a 99+% career pass rate over the 20 years they've been around AND a near-zero attrition rate over that same time.  There are few schools that can say the same, and there's nothing negative you can say about that.  Their program is a part of the medical school, which means PA students rotate, under attending physicians, like residents of the med program.  Huge resources and an excellent program.  We're starting to lose steam here, but I'm just trying to underscore that more than one road leads to Rome, and, in some cases, some get there more reliably than others.  I'm just grateful to be interviewing at excellent programs and feel that any of the mentioned schools have an incredible amount to offer our patient population.  20 years is a long way out to be from school.  I'd be thrilled to work with someone of your experience level out in the field, but as far as education goes, I have to presently go with what makes sense on paper and in my gut.  Everyone's different.  With some luck, my top picks will reciprocate the sentiment.  Thanks for your insights, and good luck to everybody...

[zoopeda]

This is graduate level education. In all fairness if a student can't hack it at this level then that student really shouldn't be there.

 

If a student fails, learns something from the experience, passes the second time around, and then passes the PANCE on the first attempt, who the $#@! cares?  Small potatoes in my book and hardly an indicator of the program quality.  (In fact, first time PANCE + attrition is probably the BIGGEST indicator of program success...)  I just want someone who gets it by the time they're a PA-C and who can deliver the standard of care expected of the profession.  The first-time mastery of the minutia is hardly relevant in comparison to clinical competency... 

[EMEDPA]

Don't be so defensive of your alma mater.  I'm sure Drexel continues to pump out some excellent PAs.  I'm also sure OHSU does as well.  They've managed a 99+% career pass rate over the 20 years they've been around AND a near-zero attrition rate over that same time.  There are few schools that can say the same, and there's nothing negative you can say about that.  Their program is a part of the medical school, which means PA students rotate, under attending physicians, like residents of the med program.  Huge resources and an excellent program.  We're starting to lose steam here, but I'm just trying to underscore that more than one road leads to Rome, and, in some cases, some get there more reliably than others.  I'm just grateful to be interviewing at excellent programs and feel that any of the mentioned schools have an incredible amount to offer our patient population.  20 years is a long way out to be from school.  I'd be thrilled to work with someone of your experience level out in the field, but as far as education goes, I have to presently go with what makes sense on paper and in my gut.  Everyone's different.  With some luck, my top picks will reciprocate the sentiment.  Thanks for your insights, and good luck to everybody...

I agree ohsu is a fine program. I belive they have only been around for 15 yrs, however(graduated first class in 99 or so). I have several friends from the first class at both ohsu and pacific. I precept lots of these folks.