undecided00 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I was wondering if anyone has or knows anyone who has advanced to a supervisor or administrative position as a PA? The one thing that bothers me about the profession is the idea of "once a pa, always a pa". I would like to be able to move up the career ladder eventually. I am currently pre-PA so I know I have a long road ahead of me but my ultimate goal is to become a PA, attain an masters in health administration or MBA with a focus in health care administration. If anyone has done that themselves or knows of colleagues that have gone down that same path (pa, rn, np, crna) can you please tell me how it has worked out? Also, is it typical in hospitals to have a head PA? i know there are head nurses who act in more of a manager type of way as opposed to clinical. Just wondering if it works the same was for PA's While I realize this is a PA forum and not a hospital administration forum, if anyone has any ideas of salaries for administrators I'd appreciate if you could share that information. I have checked salary.com and a few other similar sites but I tend to feel those websites are not completely accurate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted February 26, 2011 Moderator Share Posted February 26, 2011 lots of places use chief pa's or lead pa's. I was associate chief of em and affiliated clinician lead at one of my jobs for 2 years. not a great experience.... pa's with an interest in admin work can and do get mha, mph, mba, etc type degrees and move into admin. the president of the em group at hopkins is a pa, mba: http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/emergencymedicine/Faculty/JHH/scheulen.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmedicine Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 This is probably my biggest gripe with the PA profession- there really is no career ladder for PAs like there is with other health professions. EMEDPA is right- getting a managerial degree like an MBA on top of your PA would make it much easier to move beyond clinical medicine and into management. A former colleague did just that and last i heard took a position as an executive at an outpatient surgical clinic. Be warned, though- those degree programs are both expensive and time consuming. Best of luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undecided00 Posted February 26, 2011 Author Share Posted February 26, 2011 thanks for the quick responses, one more question though are PA's allowed to own (or co-own) a practice/clinic? The hypothetical situation I have in mind would be working for a few years buddying up to a Dr and starting a practice together, I would benefit from his MD/DO and he would benefit from my MBA. I understand a lot of things would have to work out for this to happen and may be a bit far fetched (or may not be for all I know) but I am just wondering If pa's are allowed to own/ co-own a practice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted February 26, 2011 Moderator Share Posted February 26, 2011 thanks for the quick responses, one more question though are pa's allowed to own (or co-own) a practice/clinic? The hypothetical situation i have in mind would be working for a few years buddying up to a dr and starting a practice together, i would benefit from his md/do and he would benefit from my mba. I understand a lot of things would have to work out for this to happen and may be a bit far fetched (or may not be for all i know) but i am just wondering if pa's are allowed to own/ co-own a practice? yes. Different states have varying reqirements for the sp from never on site to on site x hrs/week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 thanks for the quick responses, one more question though are PA's allowed to own (or co-own) a practice/clinic? The hypothetical situation I have in mind would be working for a few years buddying up to a Dr and starting a practice together, I would benefit from his MD/DO and he would benefit from my MBA. I understand a lot of things would have to work out for this to happen and may be a bit far fetched (or may not be for all I know) but I am just wondering If pa's are allowed to own/ co-own a practice? Yes they can. There are some who do. I will be in that position, God willing and the seas don't rise, in about 8 weeks. Yeah, starting a PA-Owned practice is NOT for the faint-hearted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted February 26, 2011 Moderator Share Posted February 26, 2011 yes they can. There are some who do. I will be in that position, god willing and the seas don't rise, in about 8 weeks. Yeah, starting a pa-owned practice is not for the faint-hearted. although a lot of this is state related. For example starting a pa clinic in nc is actually fairly easy. Elsewhere, not so much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Yes, you can. There are a lot of possibilities in this area. There are some PA's that function as CEO's of hospitals, although usually smaller, community hospitals. Bill Hunt is the COO of Catholic Healthcare West, which is the 8th largest healthcare system in the country....oh yeah, he's a PA. Is it as common as in the MD community, no.... BUT, that has more to do with PA's than it does with any barriers to doing this. Many, if not most PA's see themselves as "worker bees", and would prefer to just see their patients clinically, and not deal with administrative stuff, in fact, I would wager that this is a reason many chose the profession. You may have to work for the opportunities, but they are there. In fact, I am working on a webinar on PA's in Administrative positions right now for my Council responsibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 BUT, that has more to do with PA's than it does with any barriers to doing this. Many, if not most PA's see themselves as "worker bees", and would prefer to just see their patients clinically, and not deal with administrative stuff, in fact, I would wager that this is a reason many chose the profession. I understand that you are terribly enamored with your own activities but understand that this quite a dismissive term. The irony is that in every PA position I've been in (and I'd guess "many" or "most" others are the same), I have gradually assumed more and more admin duties in addition to the clinical role....and not just buzzing around the hive..... I'd go further to say that most would rather "work with the bees" than swim with the sharks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I didn't intend it to be a "dismissive" term Andersen. I actually meant it in some ways, complimentary. PA's have proven themselves as an exceptional workforce component, and they tend to focus first and foremost on taking care of patients. That's not necessarily a bad thing. However, when I mention research, or expanding administrative functions to many PA's, they tend to indicate that they really have no interest in these arenas....maybe that is only my experience. But until I witness otherwise, that is what I have seen. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I think that one huge issue that needs to be sorted out before we move forward and that is, do we practice medicine or do we only assist the physician in his/her practice of medicine? I obvious believe that we do practice medicine. My license says I do But I've been in the trenches over the past few weeks in the middle of this debate in a very practicable arena. For example, my present SP, whom I've leaving, makes the argument that PAs do not practice medicine but only assist the physician. Now my practice I've built completely on my own and my patients have never seen my SP, however he argues that they belong to him and I don't have the right to see them in my new practice Then over the past few days, once more, I've had this same discussion with my malpractice insurer. They argue that PAs don't practice medicine but are only delegated responsibilities that the physician doesn't have time to do. Therefore, from a malpractice insuer's view, the malpractice policy must be in the Docs name and then cover us an extension of that physician in case we make a mistake in carrying out his orders. I'm trying to get the policy in my company's name (that's how they do it for a pair of physicians forming an LLC) however, since I'm a PA-owner, they say that they can't put the policy in the LLC's name because it is owned by a PA and PA's do not practice medicine but are only extensions of the physician who does practice medicine. The philosophical difference between the two concepts is huge and has many (besides the ones mentioned) ramifications. So, as a profession, once and for all we must decide if we practice medicine or not and if we do, we should make it clear that we do. To make it clear to the public what we do, a change in our professional name might be part of that. But if you look at all the political issues, which we face (like the situation in Tennessee, etc.) it all boils down to this one point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acozadd Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 BUT, that has more to do with PA's than it does with any barriers to doing this. Many, if not most PA's see themselves as "worker bees", and would prefer to just see their patients clinically, and not deal with administrative stuff, in fact, I would wager that this is a reason many chose the profession. I have no desire to deal with administrative/managerial duties... That stuff bores me to tears, I'd much rather spend time with patients. This might change in 20 years, who knows? But right now I'll gladly leave that up to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonR Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 If your ultimate goal is to be in healthcare administration, why not go to nursing school instead? (cheaper, quicker, more nurses in hospital admin) I guess I could see it if you wanted to practice medicine and then have a cush job to move into later in life with less direct patient care (closer to retirement age). But if you are really looking forward to hospital administration, there are faster, easier ways to go about getting there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d2305 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 If you like admin get your MHA and skip PA School. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 The philosophical difference between the two concepts is huge and has many (besides the ones mentioned) ramifications. So, as a profession, once and for all we must decide if we practice medicine or not and if we do, we should make it clear that we do. To make it clear to the public what we do, a change in our professional name might be part of that. But if you look at all the political issues, which we face (like the situation in Tennessee, etc.) it all boils down to this one point. We as a profession have already made that decision, no? The question is- do the external forces (that you have been dealing with recently) agree as well. The answer is no. If those bodies followed suit to what PAs felt than we'd all be in a better position. It seems the first step would be for PA leadership (not the rank and file) to make it a declaration. Make a concise defined mission statement which included such. The state chapters leading the cause at each level. It would break with the individual BOMs and the PA leadership would have to accept that (go "all in")..... What happened w/ CAPA and the CA docs a few yrs ago makes me think otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 What happened with CAPA and the Docs a few years ago??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterallsummer Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Funny, just the other day I had someone telling me if I decide to go to PA school (which I'm applying in April) that I would be stuck there, and later in life if I wanted to move to a different position or make more money, I'd essentially be stuck in my role as a PA. However it seems to me that a PA with an MBA, which is 5 years of school total, compared to 7-8 total for an MD, would actually be able to move into administration easier. I can't say since I lack all of these titles, but to me, it seems like if I got tired of working with patients (which I don't forsee), it would still be more pragmatic to become a PA, obtain my MBA later while working and then move into administration. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilly! Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 The program I'm starting in August is a duel MPA/ MPH program. I think the Masters in public health will be so helpful later on if I choose to move into administration or education later on. There are a few programs out there with this duel masters degree... you might want to look into them if it's something you're interested in. My program is 32 months (including the clinical rotations) which is much faster than going to PA school then going back to get another masters in business or public health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undecided00 Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 while there may be quicker ways of doing this, i have learned in my short life that often time the quickest way to do something is not the best way to do it. Reason I say this is that I have a cousin who got her mba worked for a year in in a major bank before the financial collapse, has had difficulty finding steady work since then, decided to go back and get the mph and now says she cant get a job in a hospital if there is at least one RN in the applicant pool. Besides which I am not so sure that it would be that much quicker anyway due to the fact that most mba programs require a few years of work experience. I am not sure about MHA but there is only one of those is my immediate area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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