Possible prereq changes

[LESH]

quote=jessicamerced;143308]I agree completely with these thoughts regarding revision of admission requirements.

Thanks Jessica.

The more hours required by a program the greater chance the students will have more previous experience to draw on while in the program and later while practicing medicine as a professional.

Obviously, I can't speak for other programs, but for us that seems to be the case. Pretty much for the same reasons that Emed gives. I also see (in the Central Valley) that the clinics and docs that hire are very interested in the type of previous health care experience and not just the "C." Here previous experience does seem to be a bargaining chip when negotiating a job as a new grad.

Many community colleges give priority to their residents when considering admission to training programs such as RN programs and Rad Tech programs.

That is the mandate for California Community Colleges. Residents of the CCC district are to be given priority. SJVC is a private school, but the faculty agrees that these changes fit the program and the school's mission.

 

The changes have been signed off at the campus level, we are waiting for Senior administration to review our request. We expect to know soon.

 

LesH

[Guest cabkrun]

I'm not sure it's "fair" to criticize SJVC for sticking to the intent of the program and its mission.

The program is pretty specific in terms of what it wants in its applicants and the hopes for what they do after graduation. Working in a rural area for the under served is just a different type of practice, and SJVC seeks to provide practitioners who can hit the ground running. I had planned to practice in medicine beginning a long time ago in the Air Force as a medic. Things happened (meaning never go into the military under the recruiter promise that you don't really HAVE to have a defined job going in and will get what you want :eek:). Life, another career, some other speed bumps over the past four years and oopppsss here I still am as a pre-PA student. Although I have life experience that many people don't, had a solid career (unfulfilling as it was), some great experience as a life-long volunteer, and am very determined to get into PA school, I know it could never be at a place like SJVC. I don't have what they require. Les is not even saying (at least I don't THINK so :confused:) that someone like me won't make a good PA student or a good clinician. I THINK what he is saying is that there are better schools out there for someone like me. I agree. I may have some decent "hands on experience " as a volunteer, and have definitely proven I am dedicated towards this new career, but that isn't what SJVC is looking for. There are a ton of schools even in CA that are better for someone with less experience. That doesn't mean SJVC is unfair, it just means I don't fit the profile of what they are looking for. UC Davis for example, is changing their requirements in the opposite direction. Samuel Merritt is middle of the road... requiring I believe 1-2,000 hours (altho most students have much more). Western University doesn't even require paid clinical experience... but looks heavily into volunteering.

I hope I didn't misspeak or offend anyone by my really long post, just giving a perspective from someone who wouldn't make it into SJVC and understands why. :D

So, I think it is admirable that Les is letting people know that SJVC is making some changes. As he always says "Get in where you fit in".

[Guest cabkrun]

Also, I believe strongly enough in having at least a foundation that I did not get thru volunteering, that I am putting off applying this year in order to get training and experience as an MA. Quite a few years later than I had planned, but hey better late than never ... whether it will make a difference in my educational experience or my readiness to practice as a PA or not, I don't know... but I hope so and feel much better waiting.

[LESH]

I'm not sure it's "fair" to criticize SJVC for sticking to the intent of the program and its mission.

Thank you cabkrun.;)

Les is not even saying (at least I don't THINK so :confused:) that someone like me won't make a good PA student or a good clinician. I THINK what he is saying is that there are better schools out there for someone like me. I agree.

Thanks for pointing out what I was trying to say.:D

I hope I didn't misspeak or offend anyone by my really long post, just giving a perspective from someone who wouldn't make it into SJVC and understands why. :D

Your post was fine and no one should be offended IMHO.

As he always says "Get in where you fit in".[/quote]

LOL I am so glad there are pre-PAs out there listening. You'll be okay kid. Look forward to calling you a colleague;)

 

LesH

[Guest cabkrun]

Thank you cabkrun.;)

 

Thanks for pointing out what I was trying to say.:D

 

Your post was fine and no one should be offended IMHO.

 

LOL I am so glad there are pre-PAs out there listening. You'll be okay kid. Look forward to calling you a colleague;)

 

LesH

 

Aww. Thanks Les :D

[JustaPA]

I have always wondered how it would be possible for somebody that had the experience of shadowing a PA or NP or MD or somebody that was a hospital volunteer, could remotely be put in the same boat as a person that actually had some responsibility for patient care, made judgment calls for a patients well being, gave therapy, did testing, administered life saving procedures. The list could go on and on.

 

Some kind of direct contact as a provider of health care from surgical assistant to nurse or EMT, dental hygienist, CNA something should be the normal requirement.

 

Yes, a member of the first class from SJVC, supports the changes you have posted.

[LESH]

As this admission cycle begins, here is the update to the pre-req changes. Since the approval for change was not granted in time to notify all potential applicants via print or WEB the pre-reqs as published are the criteria to be used by the program this cycle. Please note that the program will continue to aggressively seek applicants that meet the stated mission of the program.

 

Good luck inyour future PA endeavors

LesH

Edited September 7, 2008 by LESH

[ToppDog]

I've got a question regarding experience... How important is it that the experience be "recent"? I've worked in healthcare for nearly twenty years, but not at all for the past two years. Nobody wants a 40+ yr old male MA (especially in primary care, which sucks because it's my favorite), so after leaving my last job I have been concentrating on learning a new trade that will allow me to work more flexible hours while taking additional pre-req's.

[LESH]

I've got a question regarding experience... How important is it that the experience be "recent"? I've worked in healthcare for nearly twenty years, but not at all for the past two years. Nobody wants a 40+ yr old male MA (especially in primary care, which sucks because it's my favorite), so after leaving my last job I have been concentrating on learning a new trade that will allow me to work more flexible hours while taking additional pre-req's.

 

We don't have a time limit on anything. How it plays out with the ADCOM members is up to them.

 

LesH

[JustaPA]

I've got a question regarding experience... How important is it that the experience be "recent"? I've worked in health care for nearly twenty years, but not at all for the past two years. Nobody wants a 40+ yr old male MA (especially in primary care, which sucks because it's my favorite), so after leaving my last job I have been concentrating on learning a new trade that will allow me to work more flexible hours while taking additional pre-req's.

 

How long until you plan to apply? You can always do a little shadowing as a brush up if you can find a Doc or PA that would let you. Also, you having 20 years experience will have more than at least half of the prospective students would.

[ToppDog]

I probably have about a year to go before I can apply. I have 3-4 classes to take, & I need to see about CLEP testing some others. Things sort of got put on hold after our first kid was born a couple years ago. I was limiting my options to MEDEX primarily due to the proximity of daycare (grandparents), but that is no longer an option, so I am slowly in the process of getting more pre-req's done for other schools that require more of them.

[AlanVale]

ToppDog,

 

You should check and see if they accept CLEP pre-req's before you do...

[AlanVale]

Thats oversimplification of the matter. There are those that volunteering is a commmittment for them. There are many that do it regularly and in great amount on on a daily basis, so to lump them in with those who are doing it merely to meet simple requirements is doing them a disservice.

 

Keep in mind there are those who do not care about money, only helping and they do so....then there are the types that you speak of that cannot or will not take a cut in pay and leave thier current jobs to take positions as EMTs or CNAs and only throw in 5-10 hours a week here and there--these are two different types of applicants that should not be lumped together.

 

Just me,

 

I could not agree with you more....

 

Two months after I married, I had to ask my wife to support us financially for about two years while taking genetics and advanced anatomy and while volunteering full time (zero $), so that i could have the chance to apply this year.

 

Volunteering -or better put- working for free, in my opinion requires more blood, sweat and tears :)

 

Instead of simply not accepting any volunteer hour, SJVC could perhaps accept only those in certain areas of healthcare. For example, I volunteer worked for a physician who had his own practice. We saw 20-40 patients a day. Paid or not paid, in my opinion, this was a great enviornment for me to understand the dynamics behind the primary care setting.

[LESH]

The issue of dropping the Volunteer experience was tabled for this admission cycle as stated above. There are several applicants that have been invited for interviews that meet the published clinical HCE prereq using volunteer experience.

 

LesH

[ElikaM]

Hello,

I'm not a PA yet, but as an applicant and a student who's been studying the PA professions history I believe a Bachelors degree is necessary. I think is highly important for a PA student to have a bachelors degree, especially now that most programs are becoming master programs. Or at least weight students with a degree as a more competitive applicant.

 

Thanks

Elika M

[jgartman]

Elika- Let me start by saying you are treading on thin ice with your coment/opinion. I have a bachelor degree- I graduated from SJVC with an Associates. Guess what, I had the same training as other students in Master programs- We all are acredited by the same acrediting body. We all sit for the same exam- We all hope to have the same title, PA-C. You are suggesting because someone has more classes in underwater basket weaving and have obtained a higher degree that they now are worthy of PA school. I call that BS! Give me an Army medic, Navy corpsman, or AirForce Medic with a few years experience under their belt and I will trump your degree any day of the week and twice on Saturday. Go back and see how the PA profession came about- no where was it stated a degree was mandatory! The program wanted experience..... Navy corpsman coming back from Vietnam was how the program was started- If these corpsman had bachelor degrees I'm guessing they might not have been drafted in the first place.

So let's also look at the provider shortage in the medically underserved areas of the US, By putting demands of higher education that may or may not pertain to the PA profession you have just reduced the possible number of applicants who want to help and serve. Go back and look at your "History" PA's were designed to help the shortage. Please do not buy into the need to have more PE classes and Art classes so you can be a better clinician.

-----Sorry Les couldn't help myself------

[Blitz]

Now we are talking about 2 differnt things. A expericed health care provider far surpasses a piece of paper given you a few extra letters after your name. so, yes a army medic or corpsman "might" be a superior PA far as performance goes soley based on his/her experience. Although lets look forward....lets advance this field and take it to heights it has never been before...the future.

 

Do you know that NP's are already or in the process of having an option to earn a doctorate. Why not PA's !!

Correct me if i am wrong but i believe all NP's have a BS degree minimum.

 

I am not a PA and i would love to see this field grow being optimistic. So yes Elika i agree with you lets make a new wave for the future ! Lets leave the "history" where it belongs.

[LESH]

-----Sorry Les couldn't help myself------

 

Do what you got to do Jen...lol :)

Thanks

Les

[Craigk]

Where do I start?? A little bit about me is in order I guess. Currently I am a student in the PA program at SJVC, my background is 19 years in the ER working as a tech 1yr, LPN 10yrs and RN 8yrs. I have my associates in nursing from a program back east that had a 50% attrition rate and a 99% 1st time pass rate on boards. Our graduates blew the doors off the 2 bachelors programs located in the same city. Does that mean that our students were better or that theirs were worse? No, it doesn't, it reflects the faculties belief in the mission of the program and the dedication of the director to giving the students the best chance she could to assure them success. It was tough (PA school is a lot harder btw) but they made sure we made it. SJVC reminds me of that nursing program. They believe in the mission and push us to succeed and even sometimes dragging us to get us to the finish line. What does all this mean?? It means that degree or not this program is good at accomplishing it's mission, getting PA's out there in the rural hills and isolated farming communities of the central valley and doing what they were designed to do from the start...taking care of undeserved people. Do I need 8 different initials behind my name to do this? NO, I just need PA-C.

 

Now to the BS degree's your speaking of. Well, if you believe that all applicants should have a BS then apply to a school that requires it and not the school that is interested in getting people of all backgrounds in the front door and out the back door with their stethoscope and nicely starched white coat. This program doesn't require a BS and honestly I'm glad they don't and hope they never do. I wouldn't be here if they did and several of my classmates that are going to make outstanding PA's wouldn't be here either. A BS does not make the person, I'm not defined by the degree I hold nor do I want to be judged by it. I want to be judged by the level of care I deliver to the patient in front of me and not whats on my wall in the office. As a matter of fact, I have no idea where my degree thing is from nursing school, it's not something that I take pride in. I take pride in the fact that when I was working as a nurse I gave the very best care that I could give and I'll do the same when I'm done with SJVC. As a side note, Les you can even save money on printing my degree when I'm done, I don't need it. Just sign off on my credentials so I can take the PANCE and go practice Dermatology like I've always dreamed of doing!! lol.

 

Ok, the NP comparison raised it's head again. PA's are not NP's. PA's go to school, sit in classroom for set amount of time, NP's can get it online. The terminal degree for NP's right now is MS and in 2015 it will be DNP. You don't have to have a BSN to apply to NP school, there are several online AS to MS programs, it takes a little longer but its available. There is not such program for PA's.

 

History, whats the old saying "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it". I believe in growing and expanding our field, but not in advancing degree requirements to a point where good providers will be left behind. Never leave a man/woman behind (had to make it politically correct) is a fitting motto, being born of the military, for the PA profession. Instead of being focused on what NP's are doing in degree requirements the PA profession needs to focus on what they are accomplishing at the federal level. Obtaining independent practice rights in 17 states now (I believe), being listed by CMS as a mandatory provider along with MD/DO's with PA's left at the kid's table being labeled optional providers. These are the things we face and these are the things we need to focus on.

 

The master's requirement is 2020 or so, can't remember exactly when. My brain is stuffed right now with adult med, pharm, H&P, patho and so on and so forth. So, as it stands, Cert, AS, BS and MS are all acceptable by ARC-PA standards. There are some schools transitioning now to the MS, just as Monica, with Davis cutting back on students this cycle, she has boxes of applicants in her office, well, on second thought, don't ask her, don't bother her she looked pretty stressed yesterday.

 

Ok, so where did all this rambling go?? Not really sure, it's been a tough 2 weeks but to summarize I guess I'd say: BS degree's do not make anyone more competitive, at a master's level program it makes you just like the rest of the applicants. At SJVC its about who fits into their mission. If you believe your more competitive at SJVC because of the BS then keep that info to yourself, the ADCOMM's have your file in front of them and have a stack of files just as competitive in the middle of the table and they know who will fit and who won't.

 

Good luck in your pursuits and if you get accepted and get in then I'll see you after orientation. And if finals go good that week I may even smoke a couple pork butts for the BBQ, if not, your getting hot dogs.

 

Craig Kirk PA-S SJVC Class of 2012

[Blitz]

Your are right. SJVCs PA program sounds nice i'm considering on applying for next year.

[LESH]

Your are right. SJVCs PA program sounds nice i'm considering on applying for next year.

 

Really Blitz...why?

[JessicaGarner]

Way to stand up for us, Craig. :-)

[LESH]

I agree with Jennifer.

[ElikaM]

Hello,

 

Let me just clarify something, I am not suggesting by all means that someone with a Bachelors degree is more competent/intelligent. Someone that has mastered academically is NOT necessarily mastered clinically. That is not what I mean, please understand that. Let's all be professional ;)

I have shadowed PA's from Duke, Western, RCC, and SJVC and they all follow one mission, primary healthcare. That is why I have applied to all those programs.

I have studied the professions history; I took a 6 month pre-PA class with Braver PA-C at MT. Sac. and I've attended several CAPA seminars. However, after attending last years CAPA meeting I got the impression that most programs in CA are changing into Masters programs by 2014. I was concern for some of the most impressive PA programs (such as SJVC) that I have applied to and was worried about they’re future.

 

I did not mean to offend any one, and I apologize if I have.

[Zeus]

Hello,

 

Let me just clarify something, I am not suggesting by all means that someone with a Bachelors degree is more competent/intelligent. Someone that has mastered academically is NOT necessarily mastered clinically. That is not what I mean, please understand that. Let's all be professional ;)

I have shadowed PA's from Duke, Western, RCC, and SJVC and they all follow one mission, primary healthcare. That is why I have applied to all those programs.

I have studied the professions history; I took a 6 month pre-PA class with Braver PA-C at MT. Sac. and I've attended several CAPA seminars. However, after attending last years CAPA meeting I got the impression that most programs in CA are changing into Masters programs by 2014. I was concern for some of the most impressive PA programs (such as SJVC) that I have applied to and was worried about they’re future.

 

I did not mean to offend any one, and I apologize if I have.

 

ElikaM,

No need for apologies, it is something that is commonly discussed. It has been discussed that there will be no more new PA programs that do not offer a masters and by 2020 each program should have the ability to award a masters degree...Insert proper ARC lingo....You have done the research, its a competency based profession, which was born out of the military. Currently are 4 of the 9 programs still do not award a masters. California can not afford to do away with these programs which are so vital to the states medical system.

 

SJVC prides its self on educating well rounded, medically experienced pre-PAs and turning them into knowledgeable and competent practicing PA-Cs. Their location is in essence the driving force behind the program, providing medical services to the undeserved communities of the central valley. They do what no program is doing in that area and they do it well.

 

I know grads from each of those programs. All of which are excellent PA, so where ever you get in you will be in company. Good luck in your pursuit!