Why PA over Med School?

[Soulfari]

The argument that MD/DOs work "less hours for more money" is reasonable. But to say that any MD can work 24hr work weeks and still be successful in their field is discrediting how many 60-80hr work weeks they put in prior to reaching middle age. My goal is not to be "happy, content, and fulfilled" when I reach that magical point in my career where a 24hr work week is profitable and sustainable, but to live my ENTIRE life with the freedom and flexibility to practice medicine, yet not be married to the profession. 

 

Life is a garden, and you reap what you sow. 

[AlteredBeast]

If everyone truly believes you "work to live" , then why even bother to pursue any of these health professions such as PA, DO, MD, etc ? If the goal is to "work to live", then by pursuing any of these health professions, you are financially strapping yourself in which every life decision going forward will be somewhat dictated by the student debt you created to attain those degrees thus not enabling you to truly "live" as which was the goal of the statement "work to live.". My take is that if you truly want to "work to live" you will be content doing a job that many people think is "below" them(fyi: nothing is below anyone). Such as, ER tech, nurse, teacher, case manager, etc. All these jobs will enable you to truly "live" b/c you will take on minimal student debt and not lose much opportunity cost, while still having a steady job that pays bills and allows you the free time to enjoy life while still pursuing ur dream of working in healthcare.

One can have student loans and still have more financial freedom as a PA given the pay difference compared to an ER tech, nurse, RT, medic, etc with no debt.  It is much easier to find a job as a PA than any of those other jobs.

 

  You know the saying, those that can do ..... I went from EMT to PA because I can, why waste unrealized potential.  On the other hand I don't want to be all consumed by my work or training period.( MD,DO) It all depends on what you're willing to pay to get what you want, the currency is usually time when it comes these things.  Of course there are situations like others have mentioned ER physicians work very amiable hours, simple shift work.  Gotta consider the competitiveness of those residencies though.

[QuirkyMedKid]

Is there ever any good news for youngsters? By the sounds of it, if you aren't weathered with years of HCE, you're pretty much SOL.

[AlteredBeast]

Is there ever any good news for youngsters? By the sounds of it, if you aren't weathered with years of HCE, you're pretty much SOL.

There are programs that don't weigh previous HCE as heavily as others.  Western comes to mind

[bradtPA]

I chose the PA profession because I feel like it gives me the opportunity to be a part of medicine in a way that I will enjoy without making my career my life. I work to live. I don't live to work. I feel (just my own personal opinion) that to be a MD you have to want to be fully committed to medicine. My uncle is a doctor and that's all his life is about and he loves it. I'm not that way. So I feel PA is the perfect in between for me. It fits me better.

You need to be fully committed to medicine as a PA as well; your patients don't want or deserve a half-@@@ed done job....

[PACdan]

OP,

 

For the same reasoning that not everyone who joins the Navy desires to be a SEAL.

 

So long as you are well informed on what you are getting into, becoming a Physician Assistant is a very specific, rational choice for most.

[Joelseff]

I don't think there are many people who would choose PA over medical school, if medical school is a viable option. Many who entered this field years ago where mostly non-traditional students with countless hours of healthcare experience. It seems as though after the 08 crash and the multiple articles talking about healthcare being recession proof and the amazing salaries of PA's, now younger and younger students are becoming interested in the field. I myself think it's crazy for a high school student or even someone in there mid 20's to aim for PA school and not med school. I think there is also a misconception associated with the PA curriculum being easier than that of med school. I believe the PA profession is a great choice for non-traditional students who have built up healthcare experience, maturity and the respect that this field demands and deserves.

had to repost this because only allowed one "thanks" on forum but nail on head my friend. great post!

 

Sent from my Galaxy S4 Active.

 

 

[UGoLong]

It is not "crazy" for someone to pick a different path than you would.

 

It MIGHT, on the other hand, be crazy to assume that everyone else should make the same set of decisions that you would, independent of their particular lives, wants, needs, etc.

[Teacher2PAC]

 

6. more options for PA to DO/MD programs

 6 entry level doctorate pa programs in the works(that I have heard of).

 

Very curious to know, what are these programs?

[EMEDPA]

Very curious to know, what are these programs?

entry level doctorate PA programs.

As to location, I (and my source...let's call him deep trout) am sworn to silence....sorry....

[Teacher2PAC]

In how many years do you predict they will be available. Again, just curious.

[EMEDPA]

within 5 I should think...

[Teacher2PAC]

What do you think the best options are if a PA who is already practicing, would like to get a Doctorate? Also, would these future programs allow already practicing PAs to gain a doctorate if they really wanted to pursue one?

[EMEDPA]

What do you think the best options are if a PA who is already practicing, would like to get a Doctorate?

DHSc or DrPH

[henryd]

DHSc or DrPH

what kind of advantage would doing either of these degrees give a PA?

[EMEDPA]

SEARCH  the "taking the dhsc plunge" thread in the recovery room area. this is covered there well.

[cm7sus4]

Beating on this one again....

 

I have a buddy in this situation:

 

Went to college for BS, intended to go to med school.  Planned to take the gap year and take the MCAT right before it changed for 2015.  Didn't take it, and only prepared for the 2014 MCAT.  Now, in order to take the MCAT, he must do the following:

 

Spend another year in undergrad because he still needs 12 unit's worth of material that was not on the last MCAT. +1 year.

After that, he must spend another year applying.  +1 year.

The following year, he gets in.  +1 year.

Med school.  +4 years.

PC or EM residnecy. +3 years.

Board certification.  +x years.

 

So far our tally is....a whopping 10+ YEARS to full practice in a "specialty" that doesn't pay well for the debt load, has unGodly admin hours attached to it, in envronments absolutely overloaded with patients.  If he goes to PA school then it would be something like this:

 

Apply now.

Get in next year.  +1 year.

PA school.  +2 years.

Residency?  Doctorate?  Don't reall need to right away.

 

Tally: 3 years to a full salary and much, much less debt/interest.

 

This is why young'ns are looking into PA school.  This oft-repeated mantra of "let the kids have medical school" is absolutely moot.  Age should not dictate where you should or shouldn't be expected to attend medical training.  Experience and career goals should.  For someone to sit behind a keyboard and tell me that I should go to med school because I'm only 30 is ridiculous...when I sit in the ER doing my job, I look at the PAs who do fast-track stuff and think to myself "holy crap that's exactly what I did as a Corpsman, and now I have the chance to do it professionally, licensed, and with a national average salary of around $100K?  That's what I want."  I look at what the attendings do, and I see this:  Doc reviews the chart, talks to the patient and either a) hands the procedures off to a nurse or PA or b) admits.  fwiw, our hospital does not see trauma.  Doc then goes back to the main station to finish doing piles of admin work or back to attending for residents from the local U.  Boooorrring.  I do plenty of admin work now for the docs, and while it is a great job, it is only feeding my family until I get into PA school.

 

Besides, whether or not anyone wants to admit it or talk about it, PA schools are, with respect to academics, worlds easier to get into than med school beacuse the GRE<MCAT, no matter how you slice it up.  To top it off, there is nice selection of PA schools who do not require the GRE at all.  The MCAT isn't just another step in getting into med school, it is a huge life event that consumes your life for the year prior to applying for med school.  It's not just as easy as "oh, the kids should just take the MCAT and get in."  Bah ha!  That comment shows that the commenter has never really been around the pre-med crowd.  Additionally, the commitments are worlds apart.  2 years with no residency vs 7 years just for the quickest residencies and close to 10 for subspecialties when you throw in board certs.  It is another animal all together, they really should not be given this dichotomy that perpetually pops up.

 

What is the point of all this jabbering?  Everyone has their own perception of their career.  How one can simply decide that for another based on age, grades, whatever, is really dumb.  I say get more young'ns into PA school and start pumping them into PC clinics to ease the burden of physician shortage.  I am not advocating for physician replacement like that stupid MD vs NP discussion currently perpetuating, but rather for positions like floats, PRNs, fast-tracks, etc. so the docs can be free to tackle their ridiculous admin burdens and get more patients seen.

[PAGuy55]

Beating on this one again....

 

I have a buddy in this situation:

 

Went to college for BS, intended to go to med school. Planned to take the gap year and take the MCAT right before it changed for 2015. Didn't take it, and only prepared for the 2014 MCAT. Now, in order to take the MCAT, he must do the following:

 

Spend another year in undergrad because he still needs 12 unit's worth of material that was not on the last MCAT. +1 year.

After that, he must spend another year applying. +1 year.

The following year, he gets in. +1 year.

Med school. +4 years.

PC or EM residnecy. +3 years.

Board certification. +x years.

 

So far our tally is....a whopping 10+ YEARS to full practice in a "specialty" that doesn't pay well for the debt load, has unGodly admin hours attached to it, in envronments absolutely overloaded with patients. If he goes to PA school then it would be something like this:

 

Apply now.

Get in next year. +1 year.

PA school. +2 years.

Residency? Doctorate? Don't reall need to right away.

 

Tally: 3 years to a full salary and much, much less debt/interest.

 

This is why young'ns are looking into PA school. This oft-repeated mantra of "let the kids have medical school" is absolutely moot. Age should not dictate where you should or shouldn't be expected to attend medical training. Experience and career goals should. For someone to sit behind a keyboard and tell me that I should go to med school because I'm only 30 is ridiculous...when I sit in the ER doing my job, I look at the PAs who do fast-track stuff and think to myself "holy crap that's exactly what I did as a Corpsman, and now I have the chance to do it professionally, licensed, and with a national average salary of around $100K? That's what I want." I look at what the attendings do, and I see this: Doc reviews the chart, talks to the patient and either a) hands the procedures off to a nurse or PA or b) admits. fwiw, our hospital does not see trauma. Doc then goes back to the main station to finish doing piles of admin work or back to attending for residents from the local U. Boooorrring. I do plenty of admin work now for the docs, and while it is a great job, it is only feeding my family until I get into PA school.

 

Besides, whether or not anyone wants to admit it or talk about it, PA schools are, with respect to academics, worlds easier to get into than med school beacuse the GRE<MCAT, no matter how you slice it up. To top it off, there is nice selection of PA schools who do not require the GRE at all. The MCAT isn't just another step in getting into med school, it is a huge life event that consumes your life for the year prior to applying for med school. It's not just as easy as "oh, the kids should just take the MCAT and get in." Bah ha! That comment shows that the commenter has never really been around the pre-med crowd. Additionally, the commitments are worlds apart. 2 years with no residency vs 7 years just for the quickest residencies and close to 10 for subspecialties when you throw in board certs. It is another animal all together, they really should not be given this dichotomy that perpetually pops up.

 

What is the point of all this jabbering? Everyone has their own perception of their career. How one can simply decide that for another based on age, grades, whatever, is really dumb. I say get more young'ns into PA school and start pumping them into PC clinics to ease the burden of physician shortage. I am not advocating for physician replacement like that stupid MD vs NP discussion currently perpetuating, but rather for positions like floats, PRNs, fast-tracks, etc. so the docs can be free to tackle their ridiculous admin burdens and get more patients seen.

My dads a physician. Totally gets this and is super supportive of my decision to say no to med school. Just not for everyone. Some people don't get it. Like my pops says, "opinions are like a**holes, everyone's got one"

[DiggySRNA]

I say get more young'ns into PA school and start pumping them into PC clinics to ease the burden of physician shortage.

 

+1 for ^. Only because I am biased :)

[grcia]

I disagree with "cm7sus4' statement that PA schools are worlds easier to get into when compared to med school. Several PA schools i've looked at have higher average GPA for class profiles and the classes are usually smaller. DO schools offer grade replacement, PA schools do not. Look at U of wisconsin-la crosse campus, they have something like a 3.8 average GPA and accept 19 students a year. My undergrad school, University of Iowa, which is easily one of the best programs in the country, has about a 3.7 average GPA, which is similar to the med school average, but the PA program only accepts 25 students.

[DreamingPA]

I am not sure about the OP's home state, but getting into a PA school in Cali seems much harder than some DO schools in the South.

PA > DO for me was based on various reasons, including financial and residency considerations.

Don't forget that some private DO schools in NY or Cali will cost you over 300K total. If you have some money saved up, it might be okay, but if you have to take out and pay everything from the loans, it can be very expensive. Also, it can take you a long time to pay all that back, esp if you have a family and do primary care

[PAGuy55]

In my honest opinion, it seems slightly easier to get accepted to a DO program. You don't need a crazy MCAT score and again grade replacement is offered. Regardless, it shouldn't be about which track is "easier" but rather which track suits you best.

[cm7sus4]

I disagree with "cm7sus4' statement that PA schools are worlds easier to get into when compared to med school. Several PA schools i've looked at have higher average GPA for class profiles and the classes are usually smaller. DO schools offer grade replacement, PA schools do not. Look at U of wisconsin-la crosse campus, they have something like a 3.8 average GPA and accept 19 students a year. My undergrad school, University of Iowa, which is easily one of the best programs in the country, has about a 3.7 average GPA, which is similar to the med school average, but the PA program only accepts 25 students.

 

Very true.  The thing is, it's the same problem with medical school, plus there is the burden of the MCAT.  Every health professions school is extremely competetive...nursing, pharm, psych, etc.  The average scores only go up with time, to the point that my local state U's average accepted MCAT is a whopping THIRTY FIVE, and average GPA is 3.8.  It's not a prestigious program by any means...we're talking Ivy League stats for a state medical college.  PA school is also extremely competetive, but, once again, no MCAT.  All things being equal, it comes down to MCAT vs. the GRE with respect to acadmeics.  I draw equivalence between the two academically (pre-pa vs. pre-med that is) becuase both student demographics tend to persue the same coursework and degree programs, with the exception the odd course like medical terminology.

 

Certain PA schools may have smaller class sizes than neighbooring medical colleges, but what really matters is the question of how many applications each respective school recieves per cycle.  Also take into account that there are 45 or so more PA schools than medical schools.  It's a give-and-take when trying to make direct comparisons, and it seems to me to be a rough equivalence...which is why, in the specific context of our discussion, the difference comes down to either MCAT or GRE/GRE not required.

 

Even then, perhaps I should amend my entire original comment to "easier to apply to" than "easier to get into."  This seems more appropriate becuase 1) I haven't gotten in to either and 2) it all comes down to whether or not the ADCOM likes you, over which a large measure you have no control.

[DreamingPA]

Very true.  The thing is, it's the same problem with medical school, plus there is the burden of the MCAT.  Every health professions school is extremely competetive...nursing, pharm, psych, etc.  The average scores only go up with time, to the point that my local state U's average accepted MCAT is a whopping THIRTY FIVE, and average GPA is 3.8.  It's not a prestigious program by any means...we're talking Ivy League stats for a state medical college.  PA school is also extremely competetive, but, once again, no MCAT.  All things being equal, it comes down to MCAT vs. the GRE with respect to acadmeics.  I draw equivalence between the two academically (pre-pa vs. pre-med that is) becuase both student demographics tend to persue the same coursework and degree programs, with the exception the odd course like medical terminology.

 

Certain PA schools may have smaller class sizes than neighbooring medical colleges, but what really matters is the question of how many applications each respective school recieves per cycle.  Also take into account that there are 45 or so more PA schools than medical schools.  It's a give-and-take when trying to make direct comparisons, and it seems to me to be a rough equivalence...which is why, in the specific context of our discussion, the difference comes down to either MCAT or GRE/GRE not required.

 

Even then, perhaps I should amend my entire original comment to "easier to apply to" than "easier to get into."  This seems more appropriate becuase 1) I haven't gotten in to either and 2) it all comes down to whether or not the ADCOM likes you, over which a large measure you have no control.

 

 

To be fair, all med schools require a BS or higher degree. It is not the case for some PA schools. A few I know from the military took most prereqs online and they got into  PA schools, just because they had some very good healthcare experiences. Almost all med schools don't give a crap whether or not you accrued 50,000 hours of HCE in the army or not, if your GPA or MCAT is not good. Yeah, DO schools are  easy to get into, but some PA schools even accept sub-par 3.0 candidates, as long as they have other good stuffs in their applications.

 

I think both HCE and high intellect are important to function as a PA - but having a real good analytical and critical  thinking skills seem more important down the road as future clinician IMO than having had some previous experience doing scud works in clinics. Not being able to think critically is why DO's and MD's and even nurses don't seem to respect  some PA's.  anyone can treat allergies, colds, lower back pains, and so on. The PAs that get delegated to see more complicated patients independetly are usually the ones that demonstrated higher thinking abilities and showed more clinical competence to their collaborating doc

[cm7sus4]

To be fair, all med schools require a BS or higher degree. It is not the case for some PA schools. A few I know from the military took most prereqs online and they got into  PA schools, just because they had some very good healthcare experiences. Almost all med schools don't give a crap whether or not you accrued 50,000 hours of HCE in the army or not, if your GPA or MCAT is not good. Yeah, DO schools are  easy to get into, but some PA schools even accept sub-par 3.0 candidates, as long as they have other good stuffs in their applications.

 

I think both HCE and high intellect are important to function as a PA - but having a real good analytical and critical  thinking skills seem more important down the road as future clinician IMO than having had some previous experience doing scud works in clinics. Not being able to think critically is why DO's and MD's and even nurses don't seem to respect  some PA's.  anyone can treat allergies, colds, lower back pains, and so on. The PAs that get delegated to see more complicated patients independetly are usually the ones that demonstrated higher thinking abilities and showed more clinical competence to their collaborating doc

 

Check this discussion: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/schools-that-do-not-require-a-bachelors-degree.728180/ although dated by a few years, it shows that not all med schools require a degree in any form. The expectation is generally that you should have one in order to be competetive on any meaningful level. The people who take advantage of applying without having a prior degree tend to have extraordinary circumstances and very compelling narratives.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree with you that med schools don't "give a crap" about x number of high quality HCE hours...attend any pre-med conference with an ADCOM panel and they will tell you combat medic experience will put you ahead of your peers.  The most common reasons I hear as an explanation are 1) maturity, 2) demonstrated commitment.

 

I would add the qualifier to your statement "[some] DO schools are easier to get into"  The original DO school, AT Still in Kirksville, MO, has avg acc MCAT scores of somewhere around 27.  That is relatively easier to acheive than a 35, but my primary argument here is that a 27 MCAT is worlds more difficult to earn than an average or even competitive GRE score.  We could go back and forth all day long in a tit-for-tat about how one quality of the admissions process is easier than the other, which is why I grant both process an equivalance and bring it all down to MCAT vs GRE.

 

Your last statement goes both ways - the same critical thinkers that ace med school requirements can sometimes turn out to have little-to-no bedside manner or empathy for the patients they treat.  Idiots can make it into and through medical school just like they can with every other profession out there.  Although, that is another discussion altogether.