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Switching from medical school to PA b/c of learning disability


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I respect anyone who makes it through a typical MD/DO MS1 year.

after that, my understanding is that it is not that different than a typical pa program.

PA school didactics are mostly taken from MS 2 so once a pa has made it through ms 1 they will be looking at a lot of review...and as prima says, clinicals are just going to wrok and we all know how to do that...and residency is a piad apprenticeship, not school...

I would still love to do a structured residency program, especially the off service rotations. folks say I would be silly to go back at this point but I know there is always more to learn...unfortunately I don't live within 1000 miles of any PA residency that interests me and the only pa to physician bridge program is on the other side fo the country...easy as a single guy, not so much for someone with kids, bills, and "roots in the community".

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I have to agree with the others.  Med school is very easy compared to PA school.  At my program you could fail your entire first 2 years of the MD program and they still kept you in (this was a top 10 med school).  I know at least 5 med students who failed every class the first 2 years and they were still allowed to finish.

 

For my PA program, if you fail even one class you are gone forever, no appeals, no 2nd chances.

 

Our PA classes were much more intense than the MD classes as well.  We covered MORE material in less than half the time.  We had a lot more class time, plus our clinicals were much more intense.  We had DOUBLE the number of clinical hours the MD students got, in 1/2 of the amount of time.  100 percent of the MD classes were strictly optional.  About 50 percent of the med students never came to a single lecture, and simply watched everything online.  

 

On our ward rotations, the med students came for morning rounds and then left for the day and contributed NOTHING to the team.  The PA students ran the team and we entered all the orders, wrote all the H&Ps, and handled just about everything.  The med students put in about 2 horus a day, the PA students regularly put in 12 hour days on every ward team and clinic assignment.

 

We were also better than the MD students at the basic sciences, even though they supposedly got more exposure to it than we did.  Our professor gave the MD and the PA students 100 sample USMLE step 1 questions.  The PA student average was over 30 points higher than the MD student average.

 

My experience (and the rest of hte people on this board) is that med school is a joke.  PA school is way more intense.  We learn DOUBLE the amount of the MDs in less than 1/2 of the time.

 

You have an interesting opinion, Gordon, PA-C. Your insecurity is baffling.

 

I defer to the posters who have actually completed both. You sir, have only done one and witnessed the processes of the other. Your assertions are therefore not logically consistent.

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And I have been a graduate level university professor within a top 25 medical school for the last 6 years. What that has to do with anything? And before that i was a TA while in graduate school. The knowledge of my last anatomy professor was that of all TAs and instructors combined in the department.

While I feel for the OP in his struggle, one has to answer a simple question. Do you want to have a boss like that? When subordinates a head above in knowledge, things tend to get ugly. Do you want to be treated by a physician who just got by on exams and boards? It is a life time learning after all... But what do I know?

 

I'm also gonna take you down a notch here, boss. If knowledge and skill are measured by a test, then surgeons and interns would fill in bubble sheets all day instead of use clinical judgement. Any monkey with an Ipad can look up data. You said the equivalent earlier, but what do I know?

 

Re-read the first post and put your .45 caliber ego away, Cochise. I'm not criticizing you and calling you incompetent based on a single post. Your intimate dissection of my abilities is inching you closer to being made a fool by your own words. I put up the stats to show you guys my daddy wasn't a senator and I had the pre-reqs for PA school already on board (minus the GRE). 

 

*To everyone who was pretty cool and gave feedback, thank you. The overwhelming consensus is different from what I expected.*

 

I look forward to working with you in the future.

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We had a student that made it through two quarters of basic science with decent grades. He made a 75 on a pathology test (Which is failing in PA school!) On the retake he made a 78 (failing). He was dismissed and offered a slot with next years class. Thankfully he got his stuff together and was able to matriculate into the next incoming class. But he lost about two years for that. Med school tries to make it harder for you to fail than to pass.  

 

Just Saying...

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I'm also gonna take you down a notch here, boss. If knowledge and skill are measured by a test, then surgeons and interns would fill in bubble sheets all day instead of use clinical judgement. Any monkey with an Ipad can look up data. You said the equivalent earlier, but what do I know?

 

Re-read the first post and put your .45 caliber ego away, Cochise. I'm not criticizing you and calling you incompetent based on a single post. Your intimate dissection of my abilities is inching you closer to being made a fool by your own words. I put up the stats to show you guys my daddy wasn't a senator and I had the pre-reqs for PA school already on board (minus the GRE). 

 

*To everyone who was pretty cool and gave feedback, thank you. The overwhelming consensus is different from what I expected.*

 

I look forward to working with you in the future.

Clinical judgement is not something you are born with. Just put your stuff together and finish school as you were advised.

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Wow

 

interesting posts

 

a few points that I have noticed - 

 

1) except for a few of us (not me) we really don't know what med school is...... so asking PAs about med school is like asking a doc what PA school is

2) you are so close - don't give up now.

3) PA is going through some growing pains - made faster by the dynamic changing health care landscape and the ACA right now

4) combine 2+3 and MD/DO is a sure bet if you can get there .... and you are already amazingly close...... so if you have it in you finish it

 

PA is an amazing field that I love, and now having been a PA > 10 years I really do see the utility/need for a bridge to DO/MD program OR independent practice.  Since I don't think independent practice would be good for a newer PA (< 7 years sort of) and the MD/DO role is so well defined, why not embrace the highly experienced non-traditional PAs that are committed to primary care and allow them a way to "practice at the top of their license" and/or become a doc......

 

A final thought.... no PCP practices in a vacuum and this whole "independence" is about as accurately descriptive as "assistant" in our name.... we ALL practice as part of a team....

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We had a student that made it through two quarters of basic science with decent grades. He made a 75 on a pathology test (Which is failing in PA school!) On the retake he made a 78 (failing). He was dismissed and offered a slot with next years class. Thankfully he got his stuff together and was able to matriculate into the next incoming class. But he lost about two years for that. Med school tries to make it harder for you to fail than to pass.  

 

Just Saying...

 

Like I said, med school is a joke.  You can literally fail all your classes and yet still get a medical degree.  It is HARD to fail out of med school.  They pretty much pass everybody along regardless of what grades you make.

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My 3 cents......I think trying to equate med school with PA scool with med school with PA school....etc, is foolish. Two different things, yes very similar, and each would do their profession a service by respecting the other for its stregths vs harpooning the weakness' which are inherent in any organization. (always some bad reps)

 

It makes me embarrassed for the posters whose anger, resentment and struggles are so pervasive they must, must...... put down others......my own personal sense is that those who are so pissy towards others, like saying "med school is a joke" (really? You havent required much comprehensive medicine yourself or you'd be completely ashamed of that statement) will work themselves into a place where they can punish others who they veiw inferior. Bad ju ju....... Go away!

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21P,

 

I don't have much to add, but I'd like to apologize for the unnecessary and moronic aggression that a couple of forum members displayed.  As a PA student, I found it to be an extremely embarrassing display.

 

Best of luck to you in whatever path you end up choosing.

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I'll second that and say we focused more on teaching MSK and functional anatomy than origins, insertions, etc... 

 

I taught PAs five days a week for three months, starting in the first part of their coursework. Their schedules were more intense on the front end and less intense towards the end of training, according to them. n=1, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was a common phenomenon.

 

DO school conventional wisdom = 1st two years of book hell, 2nd half is good if you like people/good on your feet. Residency is reported to be a bitch or a breeze, depending on a number of factors.

 

^This is why I think the well-worn path to FM and IM is turning DOs to specialties. I'll be 300k in the hole and 38-40 before ever becoming an attending. The match lists are not accurate representations of career choices, either. Most of the IM and FM DOs use those programs as gateways into other specialties... but again, more time.

 

I am not trying to cause offense at all, but I am confused as to why a med student would be teaching PA students? All of the programs I have applied to and interviewed at are taught by physician assistants or doctors....students (from any program) don't teach the coursework...

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I am not trying to cause offense at all, but I am confused as to why a med student would be teaching PA students? All of the programs I have applied to and interviewed at are taught by physician assistants or doctors....students (from any program) don't teach the coursework...

I taught PAs as a med student...granted I had been teaching PAs as a PA for several years prior ;)

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I taught PAs as a med student...granted I had been teaching PAs as a PA for several years prior ;)

it's interesting...I hadn't heard of med students teaching PA students... the schools I applied to actually try an interdisciplinary approach where you have some of your classes with med students, podiatry students, etc.

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And I have been a graduate level university professor within a top 25 medical school for the last 6 years. What that has to do with anything? And before that i was a TA while in graduate school. The knowledge of my last anatomy professor was that of all TAs and instructors combined in the department.

While I feel for the OP in his struggle, one has to answer a simple question. Do you want to have a boss like that? When subordinates a head above in knowledge, things tend to get ugly. Do you want to be treated by a physician who just got by on exams and boards? It is a life time learning after all... But what do I know?

 

Tunafish,

I think you are making alot of presumptions about the OP. he came here looking for honest advice and suggestions being in a difficult situation, not to be judged by complete strangers. Geesh.

 

Fortunately he got some great advice from some "old timers"..sorry ventana and primmadonna ;)

 

In response to your question, I have been a PA 26+ years, I would pick a boss that is compassionate, empathetic, has a clue as to what PAs are about, able to work as part of a team with their PA and  genuinely cares about their pts and wants to do the best for them OVER the best, smartest, highest scoring docs that lack all of those things every single time.

 

Truth be told, most of us have no CLUE as to what our bosses scored on their exams/boards and if you do, then sounds like someone bragging with a big ego and who wants to work for that?

 

I personally have worked with some of the "smartest" highest scoring" most decorated/published, blah blah blah docs and with a few exceptions, many of them have been egomaniacs and not great to work WITH or FOR because of an inflated sense of self worth.

But then again, what do I know? Sarcasm intended.

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Tunafish,

I think you are making alot of presumptions about the OP. he came here looking for honest advice and suggestions being in a difficult situation, not to be judged by complete strangers. Geesh.

 

Fortunately he got some great advice from some "old timers"..sorry ventana and primmadonna ;)

 

In response to your question, I have been a PA 26+ years, I would pick a boss that is compassionate, empathetic, has a clue as to what PAs are about, able to work as part of a team with their PA and  genuinely cares about their pts and wants to do the best for them OVER the best, smartest, highest scoring docs that lack all of those things every single time.

 

Truth be told, most of us have no CLUE as to what our bosses scored on their exams/boards and if you do, then sounds like someone bragging with a big ego and who wants to work for that?

 

I personally have worked with some of the "smartest" highest scoring" most decorated/published, blah blah blah docs and with a few exceptions, many of them have been egomaniacs and not great to work WITH or FOR because of an inflated sense of self worth.

But then again, what do I know? Sarcasm intended.

Well, since this is a public forum, everyone could have an opinion about the OP and the subject in question. I find it offensive that someone thinks that you could drop out of med school and fly with colors in PA school. Also, I also feel strange that someone is "apologizing" on the behalf of the group here. Let's speak for ourselves. Finally, no one seemed to care about the contemptuous tone of the OP that could not be veiled by "I am looking forward to work with you".

I just came back from the interview where we had 9 aspiring souls for 1 or 2 seats. I was thinking about how unfair it is to be rejected because of some hick up during the interview. But hey, life is unfair and this is the game you play. On the global scale of things I think it is unfair to a rejected kid to constantly remediate a failing student. Someone is blowing his chance for whatever reason it cold be while the other never had a chance. Maybe I am wrong, I do not know.

Coming to the second part of your post, I noticed, that apart from surgeons, who are born with an artistic gift of "being constantly pissed and unhappy", most egomaniacs and nasty docs are actually narrow visioned and mediocre physicians. It is their insecurity that make them bossy and shallow. I had privilege to communicate with nationally recognized docs and vast majority of them were cool as cucumbers, great mentors and awesome colleagues. They don't have to prove their title or rank, they got respect because of who they are. But yet again, the n=1 and true for academic medicine. Never dealt with private practice. 

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"I find it offensive that someone thinks that you could drop out of med school and fly with colors in PA school. Also, I also feel strange that someone is "apologizing" on the behalf of the group here. Let's speak for ourselves. "

 

 

 

Unfortunately, when one member of a group behaves or speaks in a certain manner, it reflects upon whatever group to which they belong.  This happens in all areas of life. Let's consider an example: An uncouth southerner might visit the north and be noted as crude and poorly mannered by the locals.  I, being another southerner living in the north, might apologize for the poor example set by my fellow southerner.  This is not necessarily because I owe anyone an apology, nor because I serve in an official role through which I speak as a representative of the south.  It would, however, be an opportunity to attempt to convey to the local northerners a sense that not all southerners are so poorly mannered.

 

From a purely pragmatic perspective, unnecessary aggression from anyone in the PA community toward a member of another medical profession must be avoided.  There is nothing to be gained through vitriol or antagonism.  I agree, the original poster's first comment, and his title thread, were avoidably disparaging toward PA school.  It did seem to suggest that it was an easier route, and one that can be accomplished by a less intelligent student.  It was clear from his tone, and the rest of his comments, however, that it was an unintended insult.  It seems to have simply been an instance of a poor choice of words.

 

My comment was indeed unnecessary, in all likelihood, because of the helpful comments from other PA forum members.  Still, this potential MD (likely a future PA employer, supervisor, teacher, etc.) is leaving this forum with a mixed impression of PAs.  I am hopeful that the kindness displayed in the attempts by several members to give honest advice will balance out the unhelpful, unkind comments.  Otherwise, we could have a future MD on our hands that will have a negative impression of PAs.  This helps no one.

 

For the above reasons, and because in general it's not great to be a jack@$$ :-) , negative comments like some of those above should be avoided.

 

But hey, you're your own man (or woman), and you're free to make as negative an impression as you'd like.  But I'm also free to apologize for you each and every time. :-)

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Seems like a good time (second time tonight) of the forum rules....

 

 

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We all are entitled to our opinions, however the protections of anonymous posting on a public forum needs to be internally moderated by posters BEFORE hitting the post button.

 

This medical student is at a very tough time in life - imagine being in his position and looking for advice/help from others.  We as medical professionals certainly can give him the benefit of the doubt......  I can't imagine some of these posters would have had the same conversations or comments in a personal conversation, but here on the forum tongues get untied, not to the benefit of the PA profession. 

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