Switching from medical school to PA b/c of learning disability

[21p]

CC: I failed three courses my M1 year and repeated them successfully on the 2nd go-round. This year is going poorly and I'm considering jumping ship.

 

S: I'm a non-trad and do exceedingly well in clinical situations. Several professors told me I just need to get through the year's work and pass boards, assuring me my ability would be more evident in person than on paper. My father nearly flunked out of dental school and then graduated in the top 10% for the same reason. He has been very successful, but of course we're not clones and these are different wars.

 

I love medicine and all its intricacies but 12-13 hours of studying a day = 4 hours for most of my classmates. I have ADHD (or whatever it is). Recall is b#%^h! I'm also 32 and the prospects of practicing at 40 in a mountain of debt, having sustained the age-related insults of a solid residency are frightening and somewhat comical in hindsight.

 

During the year I remediated, I really enjoyed teaching anatomy and physiology at the school and finished two of the honors fellowships... all of which are history now because the books are back in season.

 

O: I'm failing my classes and close to losing my wits.

 

A: burnt out and in a little over my head.

 

Plan: I would like to become a PA and teach on the side. The academic portion would be easier after having seen it three times, time to goal is less, and I can still have a family and do all the things in life currently awash in a sea of books. The future is bright for PAs and I think the end game of our current medical meltdown will make titles secondary to skill (thank god).

 

Not looking for answers, but more experience with this sort of situation.

 

statistics:

MCAT 9/9/10

publications, all the academic hoops

4 years as a Nurse Tech in level 1 trauma

taught anatomy to PAs and M1s for a year

ran the school note service

generally outgoing

[tunafish]

From what I see, PA school is 8 to 5-30 5 days a week. I rotated many medical students (1y and 2y) through my lab and they could leave at noon 2 to 3 times a week. Big difference! Sitting at faculty meetings I know they really do not want anyone to flunk out of med school. Looks bad for adcom. So they pull you by the ears if you do not give up.

I had a student who had learning disability and after proper medication control became an A student. Again, something to consider or reassess.

But I would do a reality check... Not everyone is capable of calculating the trajectory of GPS satellite.

Finally, how can you teach if you fail classes? Sorry for the sarcasm, but I just watched "school of rock"

 

"If you can't do, you teach; if you can't teach, you teach PE"

[bradtPA]

If you are struggling with academics in med school, it stands to reason you will struggle with academics in PA school. Furthermore, it will be tough to convince an ad com from PA school of your ability to complete the program for the same reason.

[ventana]

stick with med school!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

get formal evaluation of your learning disability so that you can get accommodations made by the program (you will fall under ADA for accommodations) 

 

You want to be a doc, not  PA - follow your dreams - you are already through M1,......  8 more months of didactic is all that stands between you and MD/DO (who really fails out of M3 or M4?)

 

Also, no sure you would get into a PA school - ultra competitive these days and a med school fail out is probably not on the top of the list (sorry to be blunt..)

 

You are so close - put it this way - if I could do a 1 yr academic and then residency I would go to med school in a flash..... you are there!

[Corpsman2PA]

Yeah, PA school is super easy to get into, they'll love to have you, and you'll just skip right through it without any problems....I mean, its just an easy knock off brand of medicine for people that can't become doctors right?

 

Sarcasm intentional.

[winterallsummer]

IMHO you have a better chance of passing med than PA school. PA school is at a much faster and more intense pace and there is no slack for anyone who falls below a 3.0, period. My school has a med and PA program and the docs who lectured to both of us have commented that our program is harder albeit shorter, and that med students are given second chances but not PA. Why not talk to your advisor and see a doctor to have your learning disability or ADHD treated?

[21p]

Yeah, PA school is super easy to get into, they'll love to have you, and you'll just skip right through it without any problems....I mean, its just an easy knock off brand of medicine for people that can't become doctors right?

 

Sarcasm intentional

Jerk. If you had any sense you'd see it as a compliment. I suppose the inferiority complex exists in both fields as well.

 

 

stick with med school!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

get formal evaluation of your learning disability so that you can get accommodations made by the program (you will fall under ADA for accommodations) 

 

You want to be a doc, not  PA - follow your dreams - you are already through M1,......  8 more months of didactic is all that stands between you and MD/DO (who really fails out of M3 or M4?)

 

Also, no sure you would get into a PA school - ultra competitive these days and a med school fail out is probably not on the top of the list (sorry to be blunt..)

 

You are so close - put it this way - if I could do a 1 yr academic and then residency I would go to med school in a flash..... you are there!

Damn it, you have a point. Thanks to everyone else for the input. It's the length of training at my age that is the issue. I figured it would be better (in my inexperienced mind, which is why I figured to ask here) to be out practicing than suffering an insane residency when I want to do FM/IM. 

[dmdpac]

stick with med school!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

get formal evaluation of your learning disability so that you can get accommodations made by the program (you will fall under ADA for accommodations) 

 

You want to be a doc, not  PA - follow your dreams - you are already through M1,......  8 more months of didactic is all that stands between you and MD/DO (who really fails out of M3 or M4?)

 

Also, no sure you would get into a PA school - ultra competitive these days and a med school fail out is probably not on the top of the list (sorry to be blunt..)

 

You are so close - put it this way - if I could do a 1 yr academic and then residency I would go to med school in a flash..... you are there!

 

 

This + 1.

[Corpsman2PA]

Jerk. If you had any sense you'd see it as a compliment. I suppose the inferiority complex exists in both fields as well.

 

 

Ouch. No inferiority complex here, just amazed that you think PA school would be easier. Suppose you don't get in for 3 years, then it's another 3ish years until graduation....now you're 6 years out when you could have been done with med school. Yeah, I'm the one that doesn't have any sense.

[21p]

Ouch. No inferiority complex here, just amazed that you think PA school would be easier. Suppose you don't get in for 3 years, then it's another 3ish years until graduation....now you're 6 years out when you could have been done with med school. Yeah, I'm the one that doesn't have any sense.

 

Not gonna get into a flame war with ya man, I taught you guys for four months and know it's not easy. That's the point: I've had all of it before so it would probably be easier, but there's no value judgement attached to the statement. It's an issue of academic convenience. Everyone here indicates it would take longer, so your second to last sentence is on mark with your compadres.

 

You guys must put up with alot of shit from people who look down on ya. I'm not one of 'em. Had a great experience working with a trauma team made up of RNs, CNAs, PAs, MD/DOs, RTs, etc... Everybody was good at something and it wasn't a pissing contest most of the time.

 

Thanks for the input.

[tunafish]

You can teach anatomy to a 5yo if you take time and repeat it 100 times. Being TA is NOT teaching, sorry dude!

[WeBuyAndSellJunk]

How similar is M1 compared to PA didactic year? It is my understanding that a lot of M1 is biochem, microbio, physiology etc... I guess this just really depends on the med school.

[WeBuyAndSellJunk]

And that is an extremely short-sighted statement Tunafish. You have no context and unless you've been a graduate level TA you have no leg to stand on to say it isn't teaching (yes, I've been a TA).

[EMEDPA]

How similar is M1 compared to PA didactic year? It is my understanding that a lot of M1 is biochem, microbio, physiology etc... I guess this just really depends on the med school.

PA school is more like ms2 + ms3/4. very little of ms1 is covered in  pa school to the same depth that the medstudents do it.  medstudents do full term courses in things like embryology and histology which pa school covers in a lecture or 2.

maybe someone who has done both like primma, makati, or bandit can comment.

[21p]

I'll second that and say we focused more on teaching MSK and functional anatomy than origins, insertions, etc... 

 

I taught PAs five days a week for three months, starting in the first part of their coursework. Their schedules were more intense on the front end and less intense towards the end of training, according to them. n=1, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was a common phenomenon.

 

DO school conventional wisdom = 1st two years of book hell, 2nd half is good if you like people/good on your feet. Residency is reported to be a bitch or a breeze, depending on a number of factors.

 

^This is why I think the well-worn path to FM and IM is turning DOs to specialties. I'll be 300k in the hole and 38-40 before ever becoming an attending. The match lists are not accurate representations of career choices, either. Most of the IM and FM DOs use those programs as gateways into other specialties... but again, more time.

[EMEDPA]

I'll second that and say we focused more on teaching MSK and functional anatomy than origins, insertions, etc... 

 

 that sounds right. when I did A+P as an undergrad we had 4 students to a cadaver and had to know all the origins/insertions/innervations, etc.

when I did A+P in PA school it was more functional/disease related.

[bradtPA]

I'll be 300k in the hole and 38-40 before ever becoming an attending. The match lists are not accurate representations of career choices, either. Most of the IM and FM DOs use those programs as gateways into other specialties... but again, more time.

And if you quit and are lucky enough to get into a PA school, you are still 3 years away from graduation (one year for any prerequisites you may not have and two for PA school, PLUS the time to wait for school to start) and owe a ton of money for a year and a half of med school plus PA school, to be paid back on an average FP salary of $80-90K instead of $200K plus for FM/IM. As others have said, stick with what you have, the worst is almost over.....

[primadonna22274]

OP, stick it out where you are. It's already October of M2, right? It DOES get better.

Are you using Pathoma? I did it with every system and again before step 1. I found it invaluable. I also recommend that you purchase UWORLD step 1 access now and start using that to study for systems exams. I found the explanations for what I missed outstanding and a great teaching tool.

There is no way that you will save time or money if you drop out now and try to get into PA school. It sounds like a nice option but you will be at least 1-2 years behind, assuming that any PA program will admit you--and having taught at 3 I can tell you that there is a significant bias against admitting former med students.

If you are still struggling to find your study strategy, it's bad timing but not a complete loss. I had trouble with test anxiety during core of M1 and found hypnosis very helpful. The test anxiety went away once we got past the misery that is core (all the "basic sciences" that are anything but basic) and got into medicine. As a longtime PA that was when I hit my stride and it was smooth sailing from there on out.

I was also a nontrad medical student. I was 37 when I started and hadn't sat in a classroom for more than a decade. I had to relearn how to learn. It was HARD. I will be 40 in a few months and graduate med school a few months after that. Clinical rotations have been easy for me by and large because it's going to work every day. You've done that--you know how to go to work. Just get through the rest of M2 and keep going to work.

Good luck.

[cinntsp]

You should also keep in mind that med school is much more forgiving than PA school on average when it comes to failures and remediation. You may be shooting yourself in the foot if you switch.

 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

 

 

[tunafish]

And that is an extremely short-sighted statement Tunafish. You have no context and unless you've been a graduate level TA you have no leg to stand on to say it isn't teaching (yes, I've been a TA).

And I have been a graduate level university professor within a top 25 medical school for the last 6 years. What that has to do with anything? And before that i was a TA while in graduate school. The knowledge of my last anatomy professor was that of all TAs and instructors combined in the department.

While I feel for the OP in his struggle, one has to answer a simple question. Do you want to have a boss like that? When subordinates a head above in knowledge, things tend to get ugly. Do you want to be treated by a physician who just got by on exams and boards? It is a life time learning after all... But what do I know?

[KMD16]

OP. I would yield to primma advised.

[Febrifuge]

You should also keep in mind that med school is much more forgiving than PA school on average when it comes to failures and remediation. You may be shooting yourself in the foot if you switch.Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

This, so very much.

 

OP, I too was a non-trad student (started PA school age 37), and my own ADHD got diagnosed and started being treated after I nearly failed Pharmacology. My PA program was unusually committed to making sure I succeeded, or maybe they were taking all the various steps about making sure I used the resources available because they were doing CYA against a lawsuit or something. Maybe they had bad experiences in the past with other non-trad students with strong personalities. I don't know, and things turned out okay for me in the end.

 

My school also has an MD program. On a day by day or week by week basis, we had a much more intense academic experience. Med students had a lot of optional lectures. If they felt they learned better just reading the texts and showing up for tests every other Friday, they could. We got a phone call at lunch if we weren't in class all morning, and we pretty much lived in one classroom from 8 to 4:30 M-F, except when we were off doing classes like Pharm or Interprofessional with the MDs or the DPTs or the CRNAs.

 

We also had really strict rules about remediation. Fail one test, you're at risk for failing the class. Fail one class, you're at significant risk for failing the program. If the faculty feels that for whatever reason you're not ready to advance from didactic to clinical phase, even if your grades are fine, you don't advance. To my knowledge, the MD program was not nearly so strict.

 

Bottom line, for an older student with a neuro-atypical brain and some issues with learning via the lecture-test method, I would not consider PA school better or more appropriate than MD or DO school in any way shape or form. Good luck.

[Gordon, PA-C]

I have to agree with the others.  Med school is very easy compared to PA school.  At my program you could fail your entire first 2 years of the MD program and they still kept you in (this was a top 10 med school).  I know at least 5 med students who failed every class the first 2 years and they were still allowed to finish.

 

For my PA program, if you fail even one class you are gone forever, no appeals, no 2nd chances.

 

Our PA classes were much more intense than the MD classes as well.  We covered MORE material in less than half the time.  We had a lot more class time, plus our clinicals were much more intense.  We had DOUBLE the number of clinical hours the MD students got, in 1/2 of the amount of time.  100 percent of the MD classes were strictly optional.  About 50 percent of the med students never came to a single lecture, and simply watched everything online.  

 

On our ward rotations, the med students came for morning rounds and then left for the day and contributed NOTHING to the team.  The PA students ran the team and we entered all the orders, wrote all the H&Ps, and handled just about everything.  The med students put in about 2 horus a day, the PA students regularly put in 12 hour days on every ward team and clinic assignment.

 

We were also better than the MD students at the basic sciences, even though they supposedly got more exposure to it than we did.  Our professor gave the MD and the PA students 100 sample USMLE step 1 questions.  The PA student average was over 30 points higher than the MD student average.

 

My experience (and the rest of hte people on this board) is that med school is a joke.  PA school is way more intense.  We learn DOUBLE the amount of the MDs in less than 1/2 of the time.

[primadonna22274]

Just my typical rebuttal to Gordon's "med school is a joke". Your n=1 is very different from my n=1. YMMV.

[Febrifuge]

 

My experience (and the rest of hte people on this board) is that med school is a joke.  PA school is way more intense.  We learn DOUBLE the amount of the MDs in less than 1/2 of the time.

Easy there, cowboy. You don't speak for anyone else but yourself. What I said was that on a day by day or week by week basis, at my school, the PA workload and intensity was greater than what the MD situation appeared to be. Then again, they had more time to work out the bugs and make sure they knew their stuff.

 

And anyway, as some instructors have told me, the purpose of PA school is to create a (brand new, minimally-competent) clinician; the purpose of med school is to create an intern.