Misconception about a PA Doctorate

[db_pavnp]

You only addressed the first line of my post, not the examples of NPs intentionally leaving PAs out of legislation, which I would consider much more "unprofessional" than any postings on a public internet forum.

 

I cannot even begin to address every anecdote, accusation, and question lobbied at me every time you guys get to hivemind swarming.  I would be here all day.  Debating who insulted who first or who left who out of legislation sounds like a massive waste of time.  Don't you agree?

[PACdan]

I cannot even begin to address every anecdote, accusation, and question lobbied at me every time you guys get to hivemind swarming.  I would be here all day.  Debating who insulted who first or who left who out of legislation sounds like a massive waste of time.  Don't you agree?

 

Discussing objective data on training or course offerings isn't "hivemind swarming". And you labeling it as such doesn't magically discredit it. And yes, it is quite telling when one group repeatedly leaves another out of important legislation for ACPs. It shows a complete disregard for other professionals (PAs) that have been inclusive of them in proposals. So no, I don't agree at all. While it may benefit your viewpoint to try and dismiss this, it is certainly not a "massive waste of time" to reevaluate a relationship with a group that has repeatedly demonstrated detrimental intent for the PA profession.

 

Again, are you an NP, PA, or RN?

[db_pavnp]

While it may benefit your viewpoint to try and dismiss this, it is certainly not a "massive waste of time" to reevaluate a relationship with a group that has repeatedly demonstrated detrimental intent for the PA profession.

 

Even if you use it to reevaluate a relationship, as you say, it doesn't excuse the sort of material that gets bandied about this forum.  It's also endlessly circular to spend time discussing who may have insulted who first.  Do you really think your opposite has no similar claims?  And even if they didn't, this is how you see your grudge best held?  Not even to mention your experience surely only represents information from one state.  Objective on one hand, yet defending your toxic environment because your feelings are hurt by nurses on another?  Hah.

[PACdan]

Even if you use it to reevaluate a relationship, as you say, it doesn't excuse the sort of material that gets bandied about this forum.  It's also endlessly circular to spend time discussing who may have insulted who first.  Do you really think your opposite has no similar claims?  And even if they didn't, this is how you see your grudge best held?  Not even to mention your experience surely only represents information from one state.  Objective on one hand, yet defending your toxic environment because your feelings are hurt by nurses on another?  Hah.

 

Are you an NP, PA, or RN?

[db_pavnp]

Actually, this cracks me up.

I did not write ONE SINGLE PAPER in medical school. I wrote 5 in PA school including my master's thesis, and one big research grant thus far in residency (intern year, no less lol).

 

 

DNPs know Khan Academy well. I mean where else would they learn medicine between nursing practice paper #5 and their 650 clinical hours?

 

Here is a great example of the lack of insight held by your members.  NPs are, on the one hand, frequently shamed for writing papers, while within two pages of this very thread another PA expresses surprise at the number of papers they were required to write.

 

Don't get upset with me for not having the time to vet your "objective" data about some random state and its, I guess, mafia-esque nursing establishment that is smashing PAs into dust.  I don't support that behavoir, but I also find the suggestion that there is no chicken and egg, tit for tat going on there to be plausible.  At all.

 

I think you should also keep in mind the arc of the thread and how we get to this point once again.  I am surely not faultless, but I specifically tried to redirect you guys away from nursing in several posts.  I made a pretty metered response in regards to the difficulty of *general chemistry* and backed it up with several explanations for my opinion and <boom> NP's are taught on Khan Academy.

 

That isn't "standing up" for your profession.

[PACdan]

Here is a great example of the lack of insight held by your members.  NPs are, on the one hand, frequently shamed for writing papers, while within two pages of this very thread another PA expresses surprise at the number of papers they were required to write.

 

Don't get upset with me for not having the time to vet your "objective" data about some random state and its, I guess, mafia-esque nursing establishment that is smashing PAs into dust.  I don't support that behavoir, but I also find the suggestion that there is no chicken and egg, tit for tat going on there to be plausible.  At all.

 

I think you should also keep in mind the arc of the thread and how we get to this point once again.  I am surely not faultless, but I specifically tried to redirect you guys away from nursing in several posts.  I made a pretty metered response in regards to the difficulty of *general chemistry* and backed it up with several explanations for my opinion and <boom> NP's are taught on Khan Academy.

 

That isn't "standing up" for your profession.

 

You have failed to grasp the implication of nursing practice papers, compared with the evidenced based papers and thesis that PAs are required to write, they look quite different. I have gone over the curriculum of a well respected NP program with attendees and have compared the material to my program, and it follows all the other information I see: the strenuousness and depth of medicine presented in NP schooling does not approach PA schooling. I don't know why this is such an upsetting concept and why you have such a hard time excepting it. I'll save you the time and say yes, the depth of medical schooling surpasses PA schooling. From a perspective of formal training, MD>PA>NP. If that's such an awful thing to say, then your agenda is pretty clear. No one can say boo to NPs, we should keep our mouths shut and let NPs walk all over us.

 

All in all I think people have been rather tolerant of you on this forum. You seem to have an antagonistic objective. And you continually do not answer when posed the question of what training in healthcare or medicine you'd had and what role you currently hold. Seeing how this is a forum for such professionals, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you based on your statements.

[db_pavnp]

From a perspective of formal training, MD>PA>NP. If that's such an awful thing to say, then your agenda is pretty clear.

 

It has never bothered me saying this as when ranking three things by some criteria or another it goes 1->2->3.

 

I have performed similar "comparisons" between PA and NP curriculums and almost to every point I find your statements of comparison to be inaccurate and confused.

 

Let me change this to suggesting that the differences simply are not as meaningful or significant as individuals who have a stake in this often suggest.  That includes both NPs and PAs.  I have said before to much disagreement that the two professions have wildly more in common then either side is willing to admit.  When I call out a discrepancy on statements regarding papers, the response is to somehow continue to pile upon the idea by doubling down on the notion that the papers must be different!

[delco714]

I'll interject and state I too, find it odd that he will not give his credentials

[jpshoe]

I always read the users name as "pa v np" maybe that is subconsciously telling us it's pa's vs np's! That sounds scientific right?

 

All kidding aside, I like this type of discussion. It's clear their is a disconnect between these two professions that should not exist as it does. I believe their is bias on each side but we need to realize we need each profession to advance our own profession, whichever one that may be. I do believe the pa's need the np's to help us gain further privileges more than they need pa's, nonetheless there should be more cooperation on both ends.

[PACdan]

I'll interject and state I too, find it odd that he will not give his credentials

 

Yes. I suspect they have no experience going through the training of being a PA or NP. Of course, if there is a reply, we will likely be "instructed" on how that is somehow completely irrelevant.

[CoastalPalm]

He has before:

 

http://www.physicianassistantforum.com/index.php?/topic/18855-former-nurse-pa/?p=230228

[delco714]

Seems to be quite hostile and inflammatory considering he is electively posting here on free will

[sas5814]

Hi all

 

I read a lot of posts about the PA doctorate. Many against and many for. I think this topic needs to be put into perspective.

 

Most PA programs are over 110 SH of graduate coursework which is equivalent to four years of college. A standard master's degree is about 30 to 36 SH of course work.

 

Bottom line, call it what you want -- a PA education already meets the requirements for an applied doctorate. We just chose to award a degree below the work done.

We could do what the lawyers did and just change the degree awarded without changing the coursework. It worked for them.

[Mainer]

NP'S HAVE THE LEAST AMOUNT OF TRAINING OF ALL HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS, PERIOD.

 

THE DIFFERENCT IS ASTONISHING. 

 

DNP IS LESS THAN

 

OPTOMETRY

PHYSICAL THERAPY

ATHLETIC TRAINER

OCCUPATIONAL THERAPY

AUDIOLOGY

PHARMACY

SPEECH PATHOLOGY

ECT......JUST TO NAME A FEW

 

AND A HECK OF A LOT LESS THAN A PHYSICIAN OR PHYSICIAN ASSISTANT

[Guest Paula]

We could do what the lawyers did and just change the degree awarded without changing the coursework. It worked for them.

 

That won't happen.  PAs can't even change our title after 50 years of debate.  

[db_pavnp]

NP'S HAVE THE LEAST AMOUNT OF TRAINING OF ALL HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS, PERIOD.

 

I was reading this weird capslock tangential when it occurred to me exactly why I never answered the credential question.  You don't really question your supporters.  It's sketchy behavior reserved for adversaries and I feel it reflects more upon the mindset of the person who resorts to it.

[delco714]

I was reading this weird capslock tangential when it occurred to me exactly why I never answered the credential question. You don't really question your supporters. It's sketchy behavior reserved for adversaries and I feel it reflects more upon the mindset of the person who resorts to it.

Yes bc "who are you to support the PA community?" makes a ton of sense. The reason we ask credentials is when you start waving your arms and flapping your gums like you actually have experience and insight into these professions. You make a big stink and poke the bear, you're going to get called out. Feel free to defend yourself..I'm all for giving respect and credit when earned

[2234leej]

I came to this forum along time ago thinking that I might pursue a PA degree after PT school. I ended up going into NP school, but having taken a couple classes with PAs, I thought I'd share a few thoughts:

 

1. I do believe that the PA curriculum is superior to the NP curriculum. Overall it is has better content and is more consistent. That's not to say there aren't good NP programs out there, but it's just not where the PA curriculum is at across the boards.

 

2. I took graduate level neuroscience with some PAs and was extremely impressed by how smart and go getting they were. Even the colleagues that I have who are PAs are good clinicians.

 

3. I have met many NPs, and many of them are clinicians. There are bad apples in every bunch. Granted, i know this is a PA forum, but I do think there is language and statements on this board that are a bit negative and demeaning. They're both trying to fulfill a similar roll, yeah?

 

4. I don't think a PA doctorate is necessary. I'll be getting my MSN with a post masters certificate in FNP. While some of my colleagues would disagree, it doesn't bring added value to either profession imo.

[CoastalPalm]

I came to this forum along time ago thinking that I might pursue a PA degree after PT school. I ended up going into NP school, but having taken a couple classes with PAs, I thought I'd share a few thoughts:

 

1. I do believe that the PA curriculum is superior to the NP curriculum. Overall it is has better content and is more consistent. That's not to say there aren't good NP programs out there, but it's just not where the PA curriculum is at across the boards.

 

2. I took graduate level neuroscience with some PAs and was extremely impressed by how smart and go getting they were. Even the colleagues that I have who are PAs are good clinicians.

 

3. I have met many NPs, and many of them are clinicians. There are bad apples in every bunch. Granted, i know this is a PA forum, but I do think there is language and statements on this board that are a bit negative and demeaning. They're both trying to fulfill a similar roll, yeah?

 

4. I don't think a PA doctorate is necessary. I'll be getting my MSN with a post masters certificate in FNP. While some of my colleagues would disagree, it doesn't bring added value to either profession imo.

 

Why did you decide NP instead of PA?

[2234leej]

Why did you decide NP instead of PA?

 

Hey Coastal,

 

I think you can't go wrong with either one, but these are the main reasons why I chose the NP profession (I think I may have stated this elsewhere before):

 

1. I greatly respect the nursing lobbying power and their ability to maximize the potential of nurses and NP's in every state. They have complete independent practice in 20+ states. Do I personally want this for myself in the future? Probably not, simply because as a PT + NP I hope to collaborate with physicians who simply know more about family practice/internal medicine, etc. compared to myself. My specialty is orthopedics and sports medicine, so I will be bringing that to the table wherever I go. I don't care for complete independence, but just the idea of it is nice (it's only going to be a matter of time before it increases, imo).  

 

2. I spent 3.5 years in PT school and another 1.25 years in orthopedic PT residency. This gave me an opportunity to learn from great PT's and physicians about differential diagnosis, imaging, management/treatment of conditions, emergency medicine musculoskeletal triage, etc. I'll be honest, I simply don't think many candidates within the NP program have as much experience as I do (as it relates to managing and treating patients, etc.). If I did not have this foundation to work with, I think the PA program would appeal to me more. 

 

3. It concerned me that the PA profession was ultimately tied and hitched to the wagon of a physician. Many physicians are power hungry, and they will try to control who they can when they can. Unfortunately, that happens to be the PA's. I think PAFT is doing a great job at representing the profession, but they simply don't have the numbers like nurses to make a longstanding impact. Only time will tell though. 

 

4. I see so many leadership/administration opportunities within the hospital for those who have MSN's and DNP's. I think the vice CEO at my hospital is a nurse. I just don't see that as much for PA's outside of potentially teaching or practicing clinically. 

 

At the end of the day, these two professions are going to be huge for the years to come. My path is slightly longer but I will be satisfied in the long run.

[FfIghter23]

Hey Coastal,

 

I think you can't go wrong with either one, but these are the main reasons why I chose the NP profession (I think I may have stated this elsewhere before):

 

1. I greatly respect the nursing lobbying power and their ability to maximize the potential of nurses and NP's in every state. They have complete independent practice in 20+ states. Do I personally want this for myself in the future? Probably not, simply because as a PT + NP I hope to collaborate with physicians who simply know more about family practice/internal medicine, etc. compared to myself. My specialty is orthopedics and sports medicine, so I will be bringing that to the table wherever I go. I don't care for complete independence, but just the idea of it is nice (it's only going to be a matter of time before it increases, imo).

 

2. I spent 3.5 years in PT school and another 1.25 years in orthopedic PT residency. This gave me an opportunity to learn from great PT's and physicians about differential diagnosis, imaging, management/treatment of conditions, emergency medicine musculoskeletal triage, etc. I'll be honest, I simply don't think many candidates within the NP program have as much experience as I do (as it relates to managing and treating patients, etc.). If I did not have this foundation to work with, I think the PA program would appeal to me more.

 

3. It concerned me that the PA profession was ultimately tied and hitched to the wagon of a physician. Many physicians are power hungry, and they will try to control who they can when they can. Unfortunately, that happens to be the PA's. I think PAFT is doing a great job at representing the profession, but they simply don't have the numbers like nurses to make a longstanding impact. Only time will tell though.

 

4. I see so many leadership/administration opportunities within the hospital for those who have MSN's and DNP's. I think the vice CEO at my hospital is a nurse. I just don't see that as much for PA's outside of potentially teaching or practicing clinically.

 

At the end of the day, these two professions are going to be huge for the years to come. My path is slightly longer but I will be satisfied in the long run.

Regarding #4 I think it is a common misconception that nurses/NPs have a better chance at leadership positions in hospitals. Those that become CEOs and upper level leadership obtain MBAs/MPH outside of their nursing degree. I know PAs who work in the same type of leadership roles as nurses and physicians and it's because they have an MBA or MPH or Doctoral degree. I think PAs may be less likely to go after these leadership positions than nurses for an unknown reason... Something I hope changes over the next decade (and I think it will).

[2234leej]

Regarding #4 I think it is a common misconception that nurses/NPs have a better chance at leadership positions in hospitals. Those that become CEOs and upper level leadership obtain MBAs/MPH outside of their nursing degree. I know PAs who work in the same type of leadership roles as nurses and physicians and it's because they have an MBA or MPH or Doctoral degree. I think PAs may be less likely to go after these leadership positions than nurses for an unknown reason... Something I hope changes over the next decade (and I think it will).

 

Definitely great points. I bet a PA + MPH/MBA would make a great leader candidate within a hospital. Though, I will tell that of the two hospitals I've worked at (University of Chicago & Rush Medical Center), I've seen people with JUST RN, MSN as their credentials, and they're vice presidents, vice CEO's, chief officer, etc. I have not personally seen PA's in my area hold these positions (granted, I'm sure there are those who do have these positions). 

 

I am not quite sure why PA's don't go for these positions either. Maybe they're happier in the position they're in and don't feel the need to. 

[CoastalPalm]

Hey Coastal,

 

I think you can't go wrong with either one, but these are the main reasons why I chose the NP profession (I think I may have stated this elsewhere before):

 

1. I greatly respect the nursing lobbying power and their ability to maximize the potential of nurses and NP's in every state. They have complete independent practice in 20+ states. Do I personally want this for myself in the future? Probably not, simply because as a PT + NP I hope to collaborate with physicians who simply know more about family practice/internal medicine, etc. compared to myself. My specialty is orthopedics and sports medicine, so I will be bringing that to the table wherever I go. I don't care for complete independence, but just the idea of it is nice (it's only going to be a matter of time before it increases, imo).  

 

2. I spent 3.5 years in PT school and another 1.25 years in orthopedic PT residency. This gave me an opportunity to learn from great PT's and physicians about differential diagnosis, imaging, management/treatment of conditions, emergency medicine musculoskeletal triage, etc. I'll be honest, I simply don't think many candidates within the NP program have as much experience as I do (as it relates to managing and treating patients, etc.). If I did not have this foundation to work with, I think the PA program would appeal to me more. 

 

3. It concerned me that the PA profession was ultimately tied and hitched to the wagon of a physician. Many physicians are power hungry, and they will try to control who they can when they can. Unfortunately, that happens to be the PA's. I think PAFT is doing a great job at representing the profession, but they simply don't have the numbers like nurses to make a longstanding impact. Only time will tell though. 

 

4. I see so many leadership/administration opportunities within the hospital for those who have MSN's and DNP's. I think the vice CEO at my hospital is a nurse. I just don't see that as much for PA's outside of potentially teaching or practicing clinically. 

 

At the end of the day, these two professions are going to be huge for the years to come. My path is slightly longer but I will be satisfied in the long run.

 

Thanks for sharing.  I'm a current second degree BSN student that goes back and forth between PA and NP for the future.  The PA curriculum is definitely very attractive to me, and I especially like the fact that all PAs receive graduate level education in anatomy (I don't really understand why NP programs don't have it, instead just advanced physiology, pathophysiology, and pharmacology).

 

I also agree on the leadership opportunities in nursing.  I do see many RNs/NPs in management positions with MSNs and no MBA (I work at a major/top hospital).  Besides nurse managers, you also have various directors of nursing, clinical coordinators, VPs of so and so, CNO, and nurses in various other positions.  I like the option of having a role in hospital systems that nursing provides, though as has been said, PAs could also find such opportunities.  

[EMEDPA]

PAs in leadership positions are rare compared to RNs. The CEO of the Johns Hopkins EM group is a PA, MBA.  I know there are a few others out there, but you can find dept directors, CFOs, etc who are RNs at any major hospital. at my primary job pretty much every management position is held by an rn except for ceo. I agree that it is likely that PAs are more drawn to clinical practice and fewer of us are interested in pursuing administration.

[MedicinePower]

Has anyone else noticed the Lynchburg doctoral program is now called a Doctor of Medical Science "DMS" and will no longer restricted to their own graduates? This degree title is the same as the LMU.

http://www.lynchburg.edu/graduate/physician-assistant-medicine/physician-assistant-doctoral-option/