Misconception about a PA Doctorate

[marktheshark89]

The only reason i see to get it is if you plan to go into academia or management and need a doctorate

[cinntsp]

Spoken like a true academic -- "it is beneficial for us to charge you tuition for extra years for stuff in the sheer interest of learning"

 

It is typical that third rate institutions like Lynchburg (never heard of this podunk school before) are trying to start new programs like this as a money grab and a way to get free publicity.  

 

I'll take that as a compliment.  I think we're going in the right direction by making more doctorate options available.  I don't know what the additional tuition at Lynchburg would be, but I can't see forking over the cost of the new LMU program.  I do plan to take a look at what becomes available over the next couple of years and at that time I will probably pursue one just because I love school in general.  

[Guest Paula]

It's my understanding that the Lynchburg doctorate is reasonably priced. PAs who want leadership and management positions will benefit from a doctorate level degree and I'm all for it. PAs need representation on a much higher level and I will be looking forward to a PA CEO of a hospital system at some time in our future. Maybe it will be a Lynchburg grad?

[Houstonian]

most mph programs are around 40-45 credits. nebraska is 30 units for mpas. touro is 17. Boston university's DrPH is less than 50 credits total. 

I think pa programs will find a way to charge more tuition when they go to doctoral level by adding additional course requirements like a dissertation, "doctoral analysis", or similar coursework.

 

Personally, I have never understood why a PA degree of any kind should require a dissertation or thesis. Medical school does not require either.

[Houstonian]

Still not sure the idea is there....

 

We all should be graduating with a Clinical Doctorate RIGHT NOW

 

We have enough credits, our job is important enough, we give orders to many of the other Clinical Doctorate level, we are not Allied Health(but instead providers), NPs are already doing it.....

 

No additional time needed - just give the doctorate

 

Think law school  2-3 years after BA/BA

DNP is an online

DPT is 5 years total

If a PA earns a doctorate as an entry level degree, it should be called something different than the degree earned by MD's. What would that be?

[EMEDPA]

Doctor of medical science.

PA, DMSc

[Mainer]

" It's absolutely a political move. But healthcare has become a political game. Reality. Essentially, PAs will be the only non-doctor ally trained providers in not too many years. It will be detrimental for them. Plain and simple. As is their title.

I'm an ICU RN. I have my choice of PA, NP or CRNA. I am leaning towards CRNA but if I were to choose an NP program it would be a reputable school and only an acute care NP program.

If PA programs had stricter entry requirements (I just can't relearn the basics all over again with kids that have no clue how to even take a BP) a better title and a more independent practice, I'd probably be all in. "    

 

I'm a bit amused by this. This must qualify as trolling. 

 

D/NP programs lack even basic science entry requirements.  Most (99%) of nurses lack the requirements to get into PA/MD school, plain and simple.  An RN won't be doing much "relearning" in PA school, it's frankly very poor preparation for medicine. Futher, getting into NP school is a joke.  You basically apply and your in. 

 

On the other hand, most PA schools have very limited class sizes and it would be unusual not to have hundred(s) of applications per spot. 

 

PA school =  5-6000 hours of training (not including pre-medical requirements)

NP school = 1200-1500 hours of training (didactic and clinical) A little more training than an RN. (No premedical requirements)

 

NP's have the least amount of training of all healthcare providers that currently exist. 

 

DNP programs in no way shape or form reflect a doctorate level education.  Another political smoke and mirror show by the nursing lobby.....it's truly the bastardization of medicine and academics. 

[Gordon, PA-C]

It's my understanding that the Lynchburg doctorate is reasonably priced. PAs who want leadership and management positions will benefit from a doctorate level degree and I'm all for it. PAs need representation on a much higher level and I will be looking forward to a PA CEO of a hospital system at some time in our future. Maybe it will be a Lynchburg grad?

 

The vast majority of hospital CEOs have ZERO medical background, hell many of them don't even have an MBA.  

The only credential needed to be a hospital CEO is a bachelors degree, and a bachelors in business will get you a lot closer to that goal than anything medically related.

[primadonna22274]

Personally, I have never understood why a PA degree of any kind should require a dissertation or thesis. Medical school does not require either.

Actually, this cracks me up.

I did not write ONE SINGLE PAPER in medical school. I wrote 5 in PA school including my master's thesis, and one big research grant thus far in residency (intern year, no less lol).

Carry on.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[db_pavnp]

An RN won't be doing much "relearning" in PA school, it's frankly very poor preparation for medicine.

 

If you want to call it "frankly very poor" then that is your prerogative.  It is commonly enough said that PA programs consider RN, RT, and Para to be top tier HCE for admissions and that individuals from these backgrounds have the necessary tools to excel if they possess the drive to do so.  I am sure you are plenty smart enough to defend your wording indefinitely, so let's just leave it at RN's being favored applicants regardless of your opinion of them.

[Mainer]

If you want to call it "frankly very poor" then that is your prerogative.  It is commonly enough said that PA programs consider RN, RT, and Para to be top tier HCE for admissions and that individuals from these backgrounds have the necessary tools to excel if they possess the drive to do so.  I am sure you are plenty smart enough to defend your wording indefinitely, so let's just leave it at RN's being favored applicants regardless of your opinion of them.

 

I agree that experience as an RN is appropriate HCE that would be valued for PA school admissions.  I don't believe that the education of an RN is good preparation for PA school.  Further, their lack of basic science precludes them as candidates into medicine, unless they do the pre-medicine coursework.  With that said, RN's are well educated to function in the role that they are trained and I have great respect for their work.  What I don't have respect for is the marginal training programs of NP's, whom have little training beyond the RN.  

 

I can also remember the words of my program director (paraphrasing), "the rare occasion than an RN has the qualifications for PA school, we don't usually take them.  They usually come with a lot of social baggage."  From my experience, this couldn't be more true. 

[db_pavnp]

Let's be straight though, the initials "RN" are not really the focus of your statements.  There is nothing in the background of the RT, RN, or Paramedic that fit your ideal of "good prep" for medicine, despite them being considered top-tier HCE.

 

You are placing a lot of weight upon what boils down to chem and phys at the majority of PA programs.  Coursework that is commonly picked up at the community college level to fill PA prereqs.  Commonly taken at the high school school level.  And commonly taken at Khan Academy.

 

If you want to grasp chemistry closely to your breast as the hurdle you had to overcome to practice MEDICINE, so be it.

[FfIghter23]

Let's be straight though, the initials "RN" are not really the focus of your statements. There is nothing in the background of the RT, RN, or Paramedic that fit your ideal of "good prep" for medicine, despite them being considered top-tier HCE.

 

You are placing a lot of weight upon what boils down to chem and phys at the majority of PA programs. Coursework that is commonly picked up at the community college level to fill PA prereqs. Commonly taken at the high school school level. And commonly taken at Khan Academy.

 

If you want to grasp chemistry closely to your breast as the hurdle you had to overcome to practice MEDICINE, so be it.

DNPs know Khan Academy well. I mean where else would they learn medicine between nursing practice paper #5 and their 650 clinical hours?

[FfIghter23]

I'm sorry I couldn't help myself. Let's not derail the thread on discussing nurses. Let's stick to PA practice. There are other threads and websites to discuss the validity of nursing practice.

[db_pavnp]

I don't really find this to be a discussion of nursing practice despite you both reframing the topic as such, but rather HCE vs prereqs as valuable background.  I think the notion of can't-help-yourself is very accurate.

[delco714]

Let's be straight though, the initials "RN" are not really the focus of your statements. There is nothing in the background of the RT, RN, or Paramedic that fit your ideal of "good prep" for medicine, despite them being considered top-tier HCE.

 

You are placing a lot of weight upon what boils down to chem and phys at the majority of PA programs. Coursework that is commonly picked up at the community college level to fill PA prereqs. Commonly taken at the high school school level. And commonly taken at Khan Academy.

 

If you want to grasp chemistry closely to your breast as the hurdle you had to overcome to practice MEDICINE, so be it.

I don't want to be "that guy", but in my undergrad which had an EXCELLENT bsn program, the nursing students usually did average to below compared to serious pre med and bio students. That is my observation. Same reason I got in to an argument with 2 4th year bsn students that the liver...Is in fact...on the right side...NOT the left. Individual intellect and drive are most important. I certainly work with a few rns that if they wanted to go to np school, they would eventually be phenomenal clinicians

[BruceBanner]

Let's be straight though, the initials "RN" are not really the focus of your statements.  There is nothing in the background of the RT, RN, or Paramedic that fit your ideal of "good prep" for medicine, despite them being considered top-tier HCE.

 

You are placing a lot of weight upon what boils down to chem and phys at the majority of PA programs.  Coursework that is commonly picked up at the community college level to fill PA prereqs.  Commonly taken at the high school school level.  And commonly taken at Khan Academy.

 

If you want to grasp chemistry closely to your breast as the hurdle you had to overcome to practice MEDICINE, so be it.

 

Have you ever heard of the Dunning-Kreuger effect? AKA you dont know what you dont know...?

 

Nowhere is this more evident than in nursing. 

 

Chem and Phys? How about a year of gen chem, a year of organic, and a year of physics? Not to mention higher-level bio courses (biochem, cell structure, etc), stats and/or calculus, and the usual other "humanities" filler courses?

 

That's 3 years of college-level, hard science coursework you are minimizing. 

 

It's not so much what you learn in these classes, it's the critical thinking skills and understanding of what really constitutes "science" that serve as a framework for a medical degree. Most of us have forgotten all those chem and physics equations. I known I did not long after I graduated. BUT---I did learn how to critically process information from a scientific standpoint, and THAT is what differentiates me from your garden-variety NP. That, and oh, about 2,000 clinical hours. 

 

 

As to the tired doctorate degree discussion---we already meet the requirements in sheer credits for this, I just think that these new DMS (Doesnt Mean Sh!t) programs and thinly-veiled money grabs that result in ZERO tangible advantages (legal privileges and pay) for PAs. 

[db_pavnp]

That's 3 years of college-level, hard science coursework you are minimizing. 

 

Am I minimizing it?  Or are you exaggerating it?

 

I guess I don't know if it is because I found the coursework to be relatively easy (please do interpret this as my personal sGPA is 3.65+) or if it is because I see how far education has come since I took it.  Our ability to teach material is so far beyond what I experienced in college.  Multimedia everything, infinite practice quizzes and tests at our finger trips, unlimited Youtube vids, Khan Academy, diverse and institutionalized tutoring.  And again, this coursework can be largely done at the high school level and is commonly done at the community college level.  Did you see the recent material that suggested grade schoolers can learn and do calculus?  Education has changed.

 

Let's take a moment to recognize the anti-nursing establishment that exists on this board, though.

 

Two posts.  One referring to Dunning-Kreuger and another pure anecdote "idiot BSNs".  How often have these exact same unprofessional, degenerate techniques been utilized against PAs throughout your history?  Yet you just can't help yourselves when the opportunity arises to leverage it against your mirror image.

[CoastalPalm]

PA schools require a year of organic chemistry and a year of physics as prerequisite courses?

[rpackelly]

Some medical schools only require a semester of organic and then biochem, which is what many PA schools require.  Some do not require a year of physics; many only one semester, some none.   Few require calculus now. 

 

Just as one example (I have more) take a look at the med school prereqs for Central Michigan University and their PA prereqs.  It's enlightening. 

[rpackelly]

CMU MD

 

The college courses required for admission to the College of Medicine include:

Two (2) semesters of Biological Science (courses such as Anatomy, Biology, Genetics, Physiology, Microbiology, etc., would fulfill this requirement) and two (2) labs are required.

AND

Two (2) semesters of Organic Chemistry (at least one lab) OR one semester (1) Organic Chemistry and one semester (1) Biochemistry (at least one lab)

CMU PA

 

Anatomy with Lab

Physiology with Lab

Pathophysiology

Microbiology

General Chemistry with Lab (2 semesters)

Organic Chemistry (1 semester)

Biochemistry (1 semester)

Intro Psych

Developmental Psych

Statistics

plus 500 hours HCE

 

 

Now what MD students actually have is probably more,  and perhaps their stats might be slightly better (I don't know about that), and maybe they have more students from more prestigious institutions (don't know that either) ) but there are only 4 required courses.  None of the PA courses can be omitted, and I know their stats are up there. 

[FfIghter23]

Am I minimizing it? Or are you exaggerating it?

 

I guess I don't know if it is because I found the coursework to be relatively easy (please do interpret this as my personal sGPA is 3.65+) or if it is because I see how far education has come since I took it. Our ability to teach material is so far beyond what I experienced in college. Multimedia everything, infinite practice quizzes and tests at our finger trips, unlimited Youtube vids, Khan Academy, diverse and institutionalized tutoring. And again, this coursework can be largely done at the high school level and is commonly done at the community college level. Did you see the recent material that suggested grade schoolers can learn and do calculus? Education has changed.

 

Let's take a moment to recognize the anti-nursing establishment that exists on this board, though.

 

Two posts. One referring to Dunning-Kreuger and another pure anecdote "idiot BSNs". How often have these exact same unprofessional, degenerate techniques been utilized against PAs throughout your history? Yet you just can't help yourselves when the opportunity arises to leverage it against your mirror image.

Anti-nursing establishment? Over exaggerate much?

 

I'm very much in favor of nurses. I'm in favor of nurses using nursing education to become great nurses. That's it. Period. Independent providers? That's asking a bit much.

 

In fact I'm jealous of nurses. Somehow they managed to dupe all of the politicians. They convinced the people who make the laws that they are somehow eligible to become independent providers with an inferior education to those that practice under the medical board (MDs/DOs/PAs).

[PACdan]

db_pavnp,

 

I am quite surprised that you are constantly incensed when PAs are supportive of their training and profession on a PA forum. It makes little sense for us to build up a competitor, especially one that we objectively see has less training in the practice of medicine, on our forum. I encounter plenty of underhanded to out right cutthroat remarks about PAs on nursing forums and I ignore them, since that is "their" space. In fact, I think PAs have been quite a bit more milquetoast and diplomatic in their handling of NP issues. And we've gotten walked on for it. In my state alone, NPs have deliberately left PAs out of TWO pieces of legislation that allowed expanded privileges at the practice level in the previous 5 years. While we have INCLUDED NPs in several pieces of proposed legislation to benefit ACPs. In both cases where we were left out, we had to go back the next year and spend time/resources to amend the language to include us. NPs are not looking out for PAs, at least not in my experience.

 

I think a BSN grad with all the required pre-reqs makes a fine PA school candidate. But it is the PA school curriculum that makes them a provider, just like it does for a medic or a tech or a scribe. I don't think any of those HCEs make a better provider alone; the thinking is different, the knowledge base is different, and the responsibility is different. So when NP programs say that RN status makes up for less clinical hours and less classroom hours in their programs, that's bunk. Training and work before going to school to be a provider is great exposure to medicine, and can reduce the learning curve, but it doesn't make one a practitioner of medicine. What's done in provider training matters much more to me than what is done beforehand.

[db_pavnp]

db_pavnp,

 

I am quite surprised that you are constantly incensed when PAs are supportive of their training and profession on a PA forum.

 

In general, I am surprised at the level of unprofessionalism and hypocrisy of the whole thing.  I think most people would be, many of your readers included.

[PACdan]

In general, I am surprised at the level of unprofessionalism and hypocrisy of the whole thing.  I think most people would be, many of your readers included.

 

I'm sorry, I don't think anything I've read here rises to the level of unprofessionalism or hypocrisy. I've seen no foul language, name calling, or libelous postings. I think people tend not to agree with your assertions, and again as this is a forum primarily for PA and PA students, I can certainly understand that. You only addressed the first line of my post, not the examples of NPs intentionally leaving PAs out of legislation, which I would consider much more "unprofessional" than any postings on a public internet forum. I understand that you think we should be supportive of NPs as a profession, but unfortunately I just don't see that being reciprocated on an organizational level. Again, I think PAs have shot themselves in the foot to some extent by trying to be too accommodating, compared to NPs as a whole.

 

For personal edification, and you may have mentioned this elsewhere, are you an NP, PA, or RN?