Misconception about a PA Doctorate

[primadonna22274]

As usual Gordon is delusional.

[EMEDPA]

I'm guessing gordon meant more material/time , not more overall.

[MedicinePower]

After a 3 year residency would there be any difference in clinical skills or knowledge between an MD/DO or PA? I would be interested to see if you took newly graduated physicians and newly graduated PAs, put them into the same types of 3 year IM/FM/EM residencies, and then tested their scored on Step 3.

[EMEDPA]

I think after 3 yrs of a structured residency you would not be able to tell the difference between an md/do and a pa on a test like step 3 or clinically.

the real difference between an md/do and a pa is the basic medical sciences of ms1 and to some extent ms2. the pa in residency would learn what they needed to function and the md/do would forget what they didn't need to know and the final product would be remarkably similar in my opinion.

[G. Davenport]

The point has been missed to some extent. We already earn a doctorate in a program that gives a masters degree. Just give the right degree. No more money would change hands. And finally, the reason we don't give a doctorate is because we don't have enough doctorate educators (pa). That's the issue. It's not about making more money - the school won't. It's not about being an MD or DO - go that route if you want.

 

It simply about - what degree has a PA graduate EARNED. that is already a doctorate. Once we have enough doctorate PA educators, we can then give the already EARNED degree.

[primadonna22274]

The point has been missed to some extent. We already earn a doctorate in a program that gives a masters degree. Just give the right degree. No more money would change hands. And finally, the reason we don't give a doctorate is because we don't have enough doctorate educators (pa). That's the issue. It's not about making more money - the school won't. It's not about being an MD or DO - go that route if you want.

 

It simply about - what degree has a PA graduate EARNED. that is already a doctorate. Once we have enough doctorate PA educators, we can then give the already EARNED degree.

Who are you kidding?!

I just looked at my PA program's credit hours: 132 semester hours at Pacific over 27 months. Pretty typical. It was hard but highly doable.

My med school (LECOM) is 286 semester hours in 3 years continuous (no vacation). The traditional program is about 40 credits longer. No wonder I'm tired. This is my doctorate--132 credits is nothing to sneeze at but don't fool yourself that half of med school credits is equivalent in terms of material covered, mastered or attempted.

And we haven't even started residency yet.

 

[EMEDPA]

I don't think Greg is comparing an ms pa program to medschool per se but to other academic doctoral programs. a pa program has more hrs than a DNP, JD, DrPH, or several other doctoral level programs. I think his point is credit for credit we have done as much work as others who receive a doctorate for their efforts. (Greg, correct me if I am wrong here).

By the time I am done with my doctorate ( 61 credits) I will have well over 450 post high school credits(not counting my cert medic program) with 2 BS degrees, an MS, 3 post masters certificates, assorted prereq courses, and a DHSc.

[primadonna22274]

Sorry correction, can't edit post above, realized my math is off by 3 rotations. 256 credits for 3-yr accelerated track at LECOM. Traditional 4 years is longer by 8 rotations so about 80 credits more they get 2 mos vacation; a month off to study for boards but that's a 10-credit "CCD" course).

[G. Davenport]

Again. You miss the point. You need to step away and look at how many graduate hours is a typical masters degree - 30 to 36 SH. Then a normal doctorate is about another 60 to 70 graduate hours. Most doctorates are about 100 hours of graduate work. I stand firm. You earned a doctorate. Stop thinking a doctorate has anything to do with medical school.

[primadonna22274]

Show me a masters that is that short. I obviously have no concept of that.

[EMEDPA]

most mph programs are around 40-45 credits. nebraska is 30 units for mpas. touro is 17. Boston university's DrPH is less than 50 credits total. 

I think pa programs will find a way to charge more tuition when they go to doctoral level by adding additional course requirements like a dissertation, "doctoral analysis", or similar coursework. 

[AREID]

I don't think Greg is comparing an ms pa program to medschool per se but to other academic doctoral programs. a pa program has more hrs than a DNP, JD, DrPH, or several other doctoral level programs. I think his point is credit for credit we have done as much work as others who receive a doctorate for their efforts. (Greg, correct me if I am wrong here).

By the time I am done with my doctorate ( 61 credits) I will have well over 450 post high school credits(not counting my cert medic program) with 2 BS degrees, an MS, 3 post masters certificates, assorted prereq courses, and a DHSc.

I agree with primadonna. Who cares what other doctoral programs are doing? We are not practicing physical therapy or law. We are practicing medicine. The only doctoral that should be awards is an MD/DO. As that is a doctorate in medidicine. And the credits are so much MORE, because medicine as a whole is so much MORE than law school or physical therapy.

 

 

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[G. Davenport]

Just look. They are almost all 30 to 36 SH. I'm not here to convince you. I don't need to.

 

It is, however, attitudes like this that keep the PA from their due. They are not an MD. But, they have earned a doctorate.

 

The DNP program at the university where I am a Dean, can be done in 72 graduate hours. 36 for a MSN and 36 for the DNP.

[EMEDPA]

I looked at a lot of grad programs in public health, disaster management, education, etc before choosing to get the DHSc. most MS programs were not significantly less credits than the DHSc and since I already had an ms I figured for the same money and effort I might as well get a terminal doctoral degree. 

if I had not done the DHSc I would likely have done this accredited 42 unit mph at san jose state:

http://www.sjsu.edu/hsr/academicprograms/mph/curriculum/

[primadonna22274]

I guess I just have to say that I have a difficult time wrapping my head around the notion that my masters program was "really enough for a doctorate" when we had to convince the school we were worth a M.S. 15 years ago when most PA programs were bachelors or certificates.

And yes at the time I felt that it was worth a masters because I was certainly putting in the work.

[EMEDPA]

don't compare pa school to an md/do. compare it to a DNP.

they get a doctorate for 60-75 units post bsn.

we do 125 units (+) post bs for an ms. 

there is obviously a difference between becoming a pa and becoming a physician. 

we are not talking about that. we are talking about how many credits earns an ACADEMIC doctorate degree in most fields and that answer is around 100 post bs for most degrees, significantly less for something like a DNP. 

[G. Davenport]

When I went, the only option I had was a "certificate."

 

The doctorate is a tough issue. I DO NOT want a pa to use the doctor term when practicing medicine. I don't care if they ever use it. It would misrepresent who they are.

 

My argument is simply an academic point. They should get the degree they earned. That's all.

 

It wouldn't makes them a medical doctor. They'd still be a PA and governed the same as before.

[primadonna22274]

Fair enough. I would say a DNP doesn't resemble a doctorate then.

I know my sister's PhD in Nursing was well over 100 credits. Much more. Took her nearly six years part-time but still. The dissertation alone was intense. A DNP really doesn't compare.

But now I think I see knappy's point.

But how do we reconcile the disparity in time spent, credit hours and material covered between an MS PA and a DNP? And should we even bother? We are distinct professions.

And I still can't make any sense of a doctorate of PA for anything other than academics (teach one up). How the heck does a clinical DPA make sense when you have clinical doctorates (MD/DO) supervising and training PAs?

[EMEDPA]

yup, there are "physicians" and there are folks who have earned a doctorate. not always the same.

when done with school I will only be Dr. Emedpa out side of a clinical setting(lecturing, writing articles, etc) . I will wear a nametag that says PA, DHSc but will still introduce myself the same way I do today; " Hi, I'm emedpa, one of the pas here tonight. what can I do for you?"

[EMEDPA]

Fair enough. I would say a DNP doesn't resemble a doctorate then.

I know my sister's PhD in Nursing was well over 100 credits. Much more. Took her nearly six years part-time but still. The dissertation alone was intense. A DNP really doesn't compare.

But now I think I see knappy's point.

But how do we reconcile the disparity in time spent, credit hours and material covered between an MS PA and a DNP? And should we even bother? We are distinct professions.

And I still can't make any sense of a doctorate of PA for anything other than academics (teach one up). How the heck does a clinical DPA make sense when you have clinical doctorates (MD/DO) supervising and training PAs?

if you knew nothing about pas and nps and were an hr wonk trying to fill a position and saw an np had a dnp and a pa had an ms you might assume the np was better because of the higher degree. yes, this is about credential creep and keeping up with the joneses but the fact of the matter is some folks just look at highest academic degree and have no idea how pas and nps differ in any other way. we compete against them for jobs. this is whay when they went to an ms we did too. they upped the ante and now we will be forced to as well. also I don't like DPA( DR of assisting makes no sense, we don't study assisting, we study medicine) I like DMS (Doctor of medical science). many pas now get an mms so dms would be a logical progression. 

[primadonna22274]

^^^and this sucks.

It's quickly becoming way too expensive to become a PA. That saddens me.

[EMEDPA]

^^^and this sucks.

It's quickly becoming way too expensive to become a PA. That saddens me.

agree. in a perfect world pa would still be a cert after medic/rn/rt/etc and np would be a cert after rn. 

horse is out of the barn on that one. I asked my program if I could just fulfill cert requirements as I already had a bs but they required more computer science, etc to fill out bs #2. 

[G. Davenport]

I agree. I am a fan of the certified PA and don't like the CAQ either. We have lost a lot of good candidates with what we've become IMHO.

[EMEDPA]

I like the CAQ. I think it is a good way to confront head on the concept that NPs are specialists in their field while PAs are generalists. 

reactive, yes, but my CAQ has already gotten me a new job with better credentialing than PAs who don't have the CAQ. (G- it's the place you used to work. PAs there without the CAQ now can't do procedural sedation without a crna, etc, etc). 

[G. Davenport]

Yon make a good point. But I used to do all that stuff at "that place I used to work" without it. So.... Hmmm.