NPs becoming Doctorate prepared

[rn2pa]

I am currently applying to PA school right now (and I'm an RN) just curious how the PA profession feels about the NP profession all moving towards requiring a doctorate degree. This change is across the board (CRNA included) and many programs only offer doctorate degrees now. This is one of the many reasons I am choosing PA over NP. I am curious if this is a direction the PA profession will take in the future? How can NPs and PAs be considered "equal" if the NPs are "doctors"? I think the doctorate thing is a terrible idea, it won't change their scope of practice or their salaries and makes them go through that much more schooling and debt. thoughts???

[MedicinePower]

If they do a residency and pass the medical licensing exams then I think it's fine. The title "doctor" comes with a lot of weight and the education and training must reflect that. The DNP as it currently exists lacks both a residency or licensing exams geared for truly independent practitioners.

[EMEDPA]

it's credential creep pure and simple. the degree does not improve on the clinical background for most nps but adds coursework in business and practice management.

that being said, there are currently at least 6 entry level doctoral pa programs in the works....we will follow their path to the doctorate to keep up with the jonses but my hope is that we focus on the clinical side, not the business side of medicine.

[physasst]

There are no plans to do this at any time soon.

 

We had a doctoral summit, we decided that the MD/DO degrees are the terminal degrees in medicine, and that the PA degree will not move to a doctorate.

[EMEDPA]

some academics decided that. they also decided about 20 years earlier that the bs was appropriate. I don't think anyone really cares what a pa degree summit says. also of interest you have one and I am getting one...hmmm, must be worth something....:)

several universities have other thoughts in mind and these programs are in the works. I know several folks pitching these proposals to schools, schools which are very interested in an extra year of graduate level tuition.

once a few doctorate in medical science(DMS) programs open up why would someone consider an ms if it didn't cost that much more? much like the bs vs ms argument 10 years ago.

then the DMS programs will offer mpas to dms bridge programs similar to the current bs to ms programs like nebraska, and voila, a generation from now you have lots of PAs with doctorates. think about how much things have changed just during the course of our careers. when I applied to pa school there were 2 ms level pa programs and they were considered "academic and snooty". now most programs award an ms. total paradigm shift in 15 years. I think 20 years after the first dms program opens most will be at this level and we will be discussing closing down the ms programs the way folks talk about closing cert and a.s. programs today.

as an HR person who knows nothing about pas or nps who do you hire? the one with the higher degree. I don't think it's right but I think it is coming. it's degree creep and keeping up with the joneses and it is the future along with mandatory internships/postgrad programs and specialty certs.

the docs want us to be mini versions of them. that means school followed by postgrad training followed by a test. lateral mobility for pas is on the way out. the alternate reality I could see is the doctorate being awarded at the conclusion of the postgrad program like baylor currently does. we will see. either way, it's a comin'.

[KMD16]

I completely agreed with your analysis & thought process emed. Great points!

[rn2pa]

My husband is an ER physician and we have had several long talks about this issue. He already has had some nurses (PHd prepared NPs) who he has worked with tell patients "I am doctor X and I will be taking care of you". That person is NOT a doctor (although they hold a doctorate degree). Talk about confusion for the patient and everyone else. Physicians go through YEARS of training and have earned the right to be called doctor. I don't think it's right for other practitioners to try and do the same, with much less education and scope of practice. I am becoming a PA because I don't want to be a doctor, I want less schooling, less liability, and more flexibility but I also love patient care.

[ventana]

some academics decided that. they also decided about 20 years earlier that the bs was appropriate. I don't think anyone really cares what a pa degree summit says. also of interest you have one and I am getting one...hmmm, must be worth something....:)

several universities have other thoughts in mind and these programs are in the works. I know several folks pitching these proposals to schools, schools which are very interested in an extra year of graduate level tuition.

once a few doctorate in medical science(DMS) programs open up why would someone consider an ms if it didn't cost that much more? much like the bs vs ms argument 10 years ago.

then the DMS programs will offer mpas to dms bridge programs similar to the current bs to ms programs like nebraska, and voila, a generation from now you have lots of PAs with doctorates. think about how much things have changed just during the course of our careers. when I applied to pa school there were 2 ms level pa programs and they were considered "academic and snooty". now most programs award an ms. total paradigm shift in 15 years. I think 20 years after the first dms program opens most will be at this level and we will be discussing closing down the ms programs the way folks talk about closing cert and a.s. programs today.

as an HR person who knows nothing about pas or nps who do you hire? the one with the higher degree. I don't think it's right but I think it is coming. it's degree creep and keeping up with the joneses and it is the future along with mandatory internships/postgrad programs and specialty certs.

the docs want us to be mini versions of them. that means school followed by postgrad training followed by a test. lateral mobility for pas is on the way out. the alternate reality I could see is the doctorate being awarded at the conclusion of the postgrad program like baylor currently does. we will see. either way, it's a comin'.

 

 

 

 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

perfect statement!

 

 

no where do I sign up for the ms-->dms degree??

[ventana]

There are no plans to do this at any time soon.

 

We had a doctoral summit, we decided that the MD/DO degrees are the terminal degrees in medicine, and that the PA degree will not move to a doctorate.

 

oh, sorry, didn't think AAPA and ARC-PA controlled the world (aka world domination)

honestly the powers that be had their chance over the past 5 to 10 years to "get on the degree" issue and they choose not to. That is the beauty of this county and the freedoms that we all have. We have been left behind by the DNP movement, which in fact has created a need for the DPA/DMS. The "summitt" is history and now the free market has taken over and is accomplishing what the PA agencies SHOULD HAVE DONE 5 years ago.

 

 

I used to feel only a MD/DO should be called doctor..... but when I hear PhD, PharmD, PT, OT, and a SLEW of other non-MD/DO are already calling themselves "doctor" I am not sure that that horse has not already left the gate and at full speed running around the track....

[Mainer]

By comparison, PA education already exceeds that of the DNP....by a long shot. Although I disagree w/ clinical doctorate degrees, it's necessary to change the name of the PA degree to maintain our marketability. The AAPA and like need to effectively represent our profession. Unfortunately, that means "clinical doctorates". Also for consideration, MD's earn their "clinical doctorates" once they finish and graduate from medical school. Residency has nothing to do with their "doctor" status.

[gleannfia]

By comparison, PA education already exceeds that of the DNP....by a long shot. Although I disagree w/ clinical doctorate degrees, it's necessary to change the name of the PA degree to maintain our marketability. The AAPA and like need to effectively represent our profession. Unfortunately, that means "clinical doctorates". Also for consideration, MD's earn their "clinical doctorates" once they finish and graduate from medical school. Residency has nothing to do with their "doctor" status.

It's all about $$$$$ for schools. I have no plans to get a doctorate as a PA. If I wanted a doctorate, I would go to med school. I will leave the profession before I shell out any more money for a degree that amounts to no more than a sinecure, or piece of paper. I would be much more in favor of a PA-MD bridge program as has been discussed in this forum.

[Mainer]

It's all about $$$$$ for schools. I have no plans to get a doctorate as a PA. If I wanted a doctorate, I would go to med school. I will leave the profession before I shell out any more money for a degree that amounts to no more than a sinecure, or piece of paper. I would be much more in favor of a PA-MD bridge program as has been discussed in this forum.

Not entirely true. In this case, schools don't determine the degree. It's the professional organizations that determine what the entry level standard and what the school needs to do to achieve or maintain accreditation. Professional organizations have artificially advanced the degrees, mostly for political purposes. There are many levels at colleges/univ. that don't agree with these inflated degrees. Further, it won't necessarily cost more than a doctorate....it will more than likely just be a name change with an added course...similar to the way PT schools went from a Masters to "doctorate" degree, yet the curriculum never really underwent meaningful change. Basically, a change from Master to Doctorate in PA doesn't mean the curriculum has to change. In my experience, professional degrees aren't generally well respected the same way that the basic sciences or liberal arts are in academic circles.

However, that doesn’t seem to stop them from opening new programs as they see them as “cash cows” to build and develop other more venerable programs and facilities.

[EMEDPA]

yup, for a while there were some masters in EMS programs out there to get your paramedic cert.

talk about overkill.

[Joelseff]

yup, for a while there were some masters in EMS programs out there to get your paramedic cert.

talk about overkill.

 

Or the "bachelors" in medical assisting that some of the trade schools are offering at the cost of about what I paid for PA school and my masters put together.:what:

 

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[jnf7882]

Since its not the schools decision, and its the professional organizations decision, what is the reasoning behind making NP a doctorate? If PA is a masters and NP is currently a masters, why dont they just change the curriculum in an NP program to make it an acceptable (masters) education for an entry level practitioner? In the near future more people are going to have access to health care so the roles NP/PA are going to change. Yes we will stil be working in hospitals, clinics etc., but it seems to me with more access to health care we are going to increase the use of our mid level providers, due to a shortage of doctors. People will be seeing PA's/NPs for primary care more frequently....it would be stupid to enstill a plan for doctorate education to be an NP. forcing people to transition from a BSN-DNP is not only more time consuming, but more costly. I think by doing this most people will just go to PA as opposed to becoming an NP. Just a thought:)

[rn2pa]

Not entirely true. In this case, schools don't determine the degree. It's the professional organizations that determine what the entry level standard and what the school needs to do to achieve or maintain accreditation. Professional organizations have artificially advanced the degrees, mostly for political purposes. There are many levels at colleges/univ. that don't agree with these inflated degrees. Further, it won't necessarily cost more than a doctorate....it will more than likely just be a name change with an added course...similar to the way PT schools went from a Masters to "doctorate" degree, yet the curriculum never really underwent meaningful change. Basically, a change from Master to Doctorate in PA doesn't mean the curriculum has to change. In my experience, professional degrees aren't generally well respected the same way that the basic sciences or liberal arts are in academic circles.

However, that doesn’t seem to stop them from opening new programs as they see them as “cash cows” to build and develop other more venerable programs and facilities.

 

In terms of NP--> DNP it does mean a curriculum change and at least one more year of schooling. If I were to go full-time to get my DNP it would take me 3 years vs 2...they have added new courses in research and business.

[Mainer]

Since its not the schools decision, and its the professional organizations decision, what is the reasoning behind making NP a doctorate? If PA is a masters and NP is currently a masters, why dont they just change the curriculum in an NP program to make it an acceptable (masters) education for an entry level practitioner? In the near future more people are going to have access to health care so the roles NP/PA are going to change. Yes we will stil be working in hospitals, clinics etc., but it seems to me with more access to health care we are going to increase the use of our mid level providers, due to a shortage of doctors. People will be seeing PA's/NPs for primary care more frequently....it would be stupid to enstill a plan for doctorate education to be an NP. forcing people to transition from a BSN-DNP is not only more time consuming, but more costly. I think by doing this most people will just go to PA as opposed to becoming an NP. Just a thought:)

 

First, when comparing PA to DNP, DNP is a much more friendly education. You can complete a direct entry DNP program in 1+2 years..(1 year for the RN and 2 Years of part-time education, distance, online learning for the DNP, with approximately 800 hours of clinical training. Most students work as RN's, part-time or full-time, during their "DNP" training. If you are already an RN, you can complete the program in the two year timeframe. PA school requires an education in basic sciences before admission, similar to medical school, +/- healthcare experience, and an average of 27 months of full-time education, in the classroom, 5 days a week, 6-8 hours a day. Don't be confused in thinking that just because a program is a "clinical doctorate" that it means it's longer and more costly. They are totally different animals. The DNP is simply a name change to elevate the status of the profession....without meaningful change to the training.....The PA profession has to decide if it's going to play the same game or not. Sometimes, names and titles matter....even if it's only perception. I also understand that similar to some PA schools, some DNP programs are spread out over 3 yrs.....

[edwinjvazquez]

First, when comparing PA to DNP, DNP is a much more friendly education. You can complete a direct entry DNP program in 1+2 years..(1 year for the RN and 2 Years of part-time education, distance, online learning for the DNP, with approximately 800 hours of clinical training. Most students work as RN's, part-time or full-time, during their "DNP" training. If you are already an RN, you can complete the program in the two year timeframe.

 

2 years part-time for DNP? I think you are referring to post MSN students. Nevertheless please share info on the 2 year part- time RN to DNP program.

[rn2pa]

2 years part-time for DNP? I think you are referring to post MSN students. Nevertheless please share info on the 2 year part- time RN to DNP program.

 

Yes- 2 year part time has to be for post-MSN. I have my RN and every school I have looked at is 3 years for BSN-DNP.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

Agreed. A RN to DNP would take at least 3 years and most DNP programs are 3 "full time." What is important to note is that "full time" in most NP programs is actually part time by the standard of others. True full time MSN NP programs, like Vanderbilt, are 3 semesters.

 

Look at USA for example. It's full time MSN is 6 credit hours per semester. http://www.southalabama.edu/nursing/familynp.html

 

The DNP is 6-9 credit hours per semester. http://www.southalabama.edu/nursing/FamilyNursePractitionerDNP.html

 

Post MSN to DNP track is 4 semesters at Vanderbilt ranges from 6-13 credit hours per semester for a total of 35 credit hours. http://www.nursing.vanderbilt.edu/dnp/study_plan.html

[edwinjvazquez]

Agreed. A RN to DNP would take at least 3 years and most DNP programs are 3 "full time." What is important to note is that "full time" in most NP programs is actually part time by the standard of others. True full time MSN NP programs, like Vanderbilt, are 3 semesters.

 

Look at USA for example. It's full time MSN is 6 credit hours per semester. http://www.southalabama.edu/nursing/familynp.html

 

The DNP is 6-9 credit hours per semester. http://www.southalabama.edu/nursing/FamilyNursePractitionerDNP.html

 

Graduate full time enrollment is considered 6-9 credits per semester just about everywhere, not just nursing programs. I believe 9 credits is considered full time for FASFA.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

I said by the standard of others. Compare to USA's PA program that is 16-19 credits per semester, or if you prefer to compare nursing to nursing to nursing, any CRNA program has around 16-18 credits on average per semester.

 

I've been to NP school and worked full time with "full time" course load. So my point is one can easily work during a full time program.