dcgirl Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I work in a non-health care related field and want to change careers. I have a masters degree in information techology and currently taking pre-req courses at the local community college. I've been looking at physcial therapy programs, physician assistant programs and nurse practionier programs as well as their corresponding pre-requisites to the program. I would like to go the PA route instead of the NP route. I've been researching the 2 fields and getting into a direct-entry NP program is a bit of a joke....it's a bit TOO easy to get in terms have very few pre-req requirements and no shadowing requirements. In fact, there are more pre-reqs required for physcial therapy programs than direct entry NP programs (yet NPs on average get paid MUCH more than PTs...but I digress). Are there any PA programs left that do not require direct patient experience or have a minimal require (i.e. 100 hours or less)? I work full time and I cannot quit my job to become a full time CNA or EMT in order to pay my mortgage and other monthly bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LESH Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 http://www.physicianassistantforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26617 http://www.physicianassistantforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13564 http://www.physicianassistantforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=111999&posted=1#post111999 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 4, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 4, 2011 none worth attending...the foundation of pa school is significant prior medical experience measured in thousands of hours... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiaroscuro27 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 It's hard to explain the importance of prior HCE to someone that is not in PA school. It helps TREMENDOUSLY! I was a lowly ICU tech, but I can't tell you how much being in the unit and participating in the medicine that went on there has helped me thus far. Trust me, it makes a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcd1976 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I guess I wonder how you know that medicine is the field for you if you've not spent any significant time learning that it is a good fit for you. Even for those programs with little to no HCE requirements, you would be a far more competitive applicant with time under your belt. And remember, there are no short cuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 5, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 5, 2011 yup...and folks with just the min go to the bottom of the pile every time.... regarding 3 yr programs...I think that is where the profession is headed long term. the other alternative is a mandatory 1 yr residency. either way the experience level of the avg applicant is dropping like a stone compared to past yrs and people are taking notice. if you don't do the time up front you will need to add it on the back end... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkles9708 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Have you even done any shadowing in any of these healthcare fields? I had shadowed with a physician, PA, and an NP for around 500 hours, most of these hours with PA professionals in several different specialties. I think out of everything the HCE is the most important part and motivated me even more to keep trying to gain admission. The program I was recently accepted to only requires 300 hours, but I will have atleast 2500 hours by the time of matriculation. I currently work in an Cardiovascular ICU unit as a CNA and I have learned so much more through this experience compared to anything I learned in undergrad. I think you need to ask yourself if you are willing to make some sacrifices in order to gain the HCE and try to pursue this career further. If you really want this you will find a way to make it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiaroscuro27 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 The program I was recently accepted to only requires 300 hours, but I will have atleast 2500 hours by the time of matriculation. And Sparkles, you will find that this is the way it works. Most of your classmates will have similar HCE numbers or more. Schools don't want students who do the bare minimum, I don't care what their program website purports. You can't get through PA school doing the bare minimum. And the students that do lack HCE will struggle in ways that you won't. Common hospital policies, bedside manner, "real medicine" will be foreign to them, and they will have questions about things you find to be common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devildoc0311 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 ... either way the experience level of the avg applicant is dropping like a stone compared to past yrs and people are taking notice... EMEDPA- I've heard this before, why do you think this shift is taking place. I know the # of applicants to PA programs are increasing and competition likewise, but I would have thought HCE would take precedence over GPA & #s. How do you think this will affect the field? (sorry if this sounds like 21 questions... just curious :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 5, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 5, 2011 the transition to mostly ms level programs makes it very difficult for traditional pa applicants(medics, rn's, rt's) with an a.s. degree to apply. 20 yrs ago lots of medics went to pa school. now many of them opt for r.t. or rn instead so they don't need to get a bs before applying. I think what we will see is longer programs( 3 yrs) and/or a required 1 yr primary care internship/residency for anything but primary care. experience needs to be gained somewhere. you either have it coming in or do more time on the back end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsmitty33 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 If PA programs are extending to 3 years, why not just go to med school. Some med schools are actually shortening their programs to 3 years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 5, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 5, 2011 there is that pesky little 3 yr residency requirement after medschool...oh, and the mcat...and organic chemistry, and biochem...(which some but not all, or even the majority, of pa programs now require). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LESH Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 im not saying it should happen, or is right, but it seems that eventually, that will be the way its done. i could be wrong, but when was the last time a new program opened up that offered just a certificate, or just an AS. It was 2003. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolute Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Are there any PA programs left that do not require direct patient experience or have a minimal require (i.e. 100 hours or less)? I work full time and I cannot quit my job to become a full time CNA or EMT in order to pay my mortgage and other monthly bills. I agree with E on this on…”none worth attending”. One suggestion would be to get certified as a CNA or EMT and work part time. That would allow you to meet your financial obligations and gain the experience needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 6, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 6, 2011 pamac- agree- I don't think it's a good thing but I think at some point getting an ms will be the only option out there....and I wouldn't be surprised if we got our own entrance exam as well; the PAPCAT (physician associate program/college admissions test)...:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LESH Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 pamac- agree- I don't think it's a good thing but I think at some point getting an ms will be the only option out there....and I wouldn't be surprised if we got our own entrance exam as well; the PAPCAT (physician associate program/college admissions test)...:) I so hope I am retired or dead when this happens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypermartyr Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 This thread has evolved into a discussion about the merits of health care experience, yet no one has attempted to answer the question. The answer is yes, there are PA schools that do no require health care experience. I just did a quick web search and found: AZ school of Health Science, Baylor College, Chatham University, Cornell University, Idaho State University. And I am sure there are many others. Now, I am sure it is the case that someone with health care experience will be chosen over an equally skilled candidate without experience, but nevertheless, there are schools that do not make it a requirement. HTH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LESH Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Hypermartyr Welcome to the forum. Please correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the second post provided links (at least a place to start) that answered the OP question? I admit some of the info maybe dated, but some folks have tried to put this information out there for pre-PAs. I thought David C. and others did a good job... Just saying. Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c0untingstars Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 AZ School of Health Sciences prefers 1 year full time or 2 years part time direct patient care experience. Chatham will "weigh" experience and does things on a point system I believe, if you are lacking in experience your GPA better be through the roof... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmm Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Last time I looked Barry didn't explicitly require HCE, but my A&P II professor happened to teach in the Barry program and said that it was extremely rare for someone with no HCE to be admitted. Her opinion was that the adcom would generally favor someone with a lower GPA and more HCE over someone with a higher GPA and no HCE. As someone with a master's degree and a career in a non-HC field who's currently waiting to get in to RT school in order to maybe apply to PA school after gaining 2-5 years of HCE, I would recommend that you find a way to get the HCE before applying. You will be a better clinician with experience than without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Savage Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 It's hard to explain the importance of prior HCE to someone that is not in PA school. It helps TREMENDOUSLY! I was a lowly ICU tech, but I can't tell you how much being in the unit and participating in the medicine that went on there has helped me thus far. Trust me, it makes a difference. I was an ICU tech also, before that I was a Corpsman. I know what you mean. Everyday I rattle off something that applies to whatever subject based on being in that environment for so long. Also I often found myself having little... "gaps" is what i call them, being filled in on why something was treated the way it was or why a certain test was ordered etc. that I always use to wonder about. It has been remarkable to go into this with such a great foundation already. I can not imagine what one would have to do to effectively put all the pieces together and retain all that information from the ground up... not saying people can not, but I know that if you start out knowing nothing, then the learning curve will go from steep, to almost 90 degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cervantes21 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Last time I looked Barry didn't explicitly require HCE, but my A&P II professor happened to teach in the Barry program and said that it was extremely rare for someone with no HCE to be admitted. Her opinion was that the adcom would generally favor someone with a lower GPA and more HCE over someone with a higher GPA and no HCE. As someone with a master's degree and a career in a non-HC field who's currently waiting to get in to RT school in order to maybe apply to PA school after gaining 2-5 years of HCE, I would recommend that you find a way to get the HCE before applying. You will be a better clinician with experience than without. I think 2-5 years is way too long if you really want to be a PA. If it's to get into a school that you really want to get into then great. That is a long road, or maybe I'm just very impatient. There are a lot of docs I know that didn't have any hce before med school. Ok, they get a residency. You can do one for pa's too. From my limited view, you can do just fine in pa school without hce. I'm a good example. Didactic and the packrat went very well. ER rotation was a fairly good learning curve but not too bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I think in the very quick near future you won't be able to get into surgery or emed w/o a residency. I hope the BS for PAs remains but it doesn't look like it's going to happen. You can find a job and do a DLP for masters. Just b/c a school states they don't REQUIRE hce doesn't mean they don't look at it....They all look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I can't see that happening in the near future. The rate of residency grad production would have to meet the demand for surgical PAs, and PAs would have to be willing to enter residency in the first place. The only thing that may change the equation would be a residency mandate for license or cert. Right now there is a strong role for surgical PAs in the market and there just aren't enough post grad program seats to train them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 26, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 26, 2011 most em jobs for anything but fast track want 1-2 yrs experience in metro areas now. sure,you can get a job in em in podunk as a new grad but it's getting tougher and tougher to do so in the big city....my group requires a min of 2 yrs and most folks we have hired have 5+. our last new hire has 25 yrs of experience and had to comptete with several other well qualified candidates for the slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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