Student debt hell...advice appreciated (military especially)

[BruceBanner]

Hey all,

 

So debt is discussed occasionally here. I know most of us have varying levels of debt in various stages of repayment. 

 

Long story short, I have about $210k in debt. I went to an out of state undergrad college, and the rest is from PA school. Some of the interest has capitalized. I have been out for over 4 years--paying minimums for a variety of reasons. I am just now realizing the full weight of my student loan burden---both fiscally and mentally. In retrospect I probably would have chosen differently. I think when you are in your early-mid 20's and taking out all these loans they seem so abstract. Just a necessary step, right?. Repayment is so far away and you have delusions about how for your working money will actually go. I remember thinking (foolishly) before PA school was over that I'd like to pay them back in 5 years. Ha!! So naive. 

 

But what's done is done, and I cant turn back the clock.

 

Currently I work for a massive non-profit and am eligible for the PLSF program. 10 years of income-based payments, and they will all be forgiven tax-free, assuming the government doesn't kill the program or limit the forgiveness amount. Or worse, tax it.

 

I came across some older threads here talking about the Army/Air Guard, etc. Is this a viable option? I remember seeing $135k for 6 years of Guard service thrown out there. I know there are a handful of military guys here, just wondering if you had any input from the other side.

 

-BB

 

 

 

 

[Maverick87]

Hey all,

 

So debt is discussed occasionally here. I know most of us have varying levels of debt in various stages of repayment. 

 

Long story short, I have about $210k in debt. I went to an out of state undergrad college, and the rest is from PA school. Some of the interest has capitalized. I have been out for over 4 years--paying minimums for a variety of reasons. I am just now realizing the full weight of my student loan burden---both fiscally and mentally. In retrospect I probably would have chosen differently. I think when you are in your early-mid 20's and taking out all these loans they seem so abstract. Just a necessary step, right?. Repayment is so far away and you have delusions about how for your working money will actually go. I remember thinking (foolishly) before PA school was over that I'd like to pay them back in 5 years. Ha!! So naive. 

 

But what's done is done, and I cant turn back the clock.

 

Currently I work for a massive non-profit and am eligible for the PLSF program. 10 years of income-based payments, and they will all be forgiven tax-free, assuming the government doesn't kill the program or limit the forgiveness amount. Or worse, tax it.

 

I came across some older threads here talking about the Army/Air Guard, etc. Is this a viable option? I remember seeing $135k for 6 years of Guard service thrown out there. I know there are a handful of military guys here, just wondering if you had any input from the other side.

 

-BB

 

Here's a good option for you: http://www.med.navy.mil/Accessions/Pages/Health-Professions-Loan-Repayment-Program-(HPLRP).aspx

 

Looks like it's a maximum for $40k/yr loan repayment.

 

Though, it looks like it may be an active duty commitment (not sure if you could swing that). If you can though, the Navy would be the service that I recommend.

[Katera]

Health and Human service loan repayment places like Indian services etc?   Honestly friend, you are going to have a hell of a time ever repaying back that massive block without help.  You might just need to suck it up and take a govt facility rural health/Indian service job for 5 years and try to get as much of it paid down.  I would NOT recommend the military.  Your lower salary and time commitment will preclude you from taking extra shifts and making more money.  Before anyone freaks out that I am somehow anti-military, I am a USAF vet.  You just don't make enough in the service to take on debt like that....

[electric130]

You could look at Air national guard or Army national guard.  My husband was prior active duty air force, then went Air national guard and is now AGR, (active guard).  He was able to get some loan repayment while he was Air National Guard, but not active duty.  Differences in contract, offerings....etc.  Disclaimer though, he is an engineer.

One caveat, you will have to go to OTS or basic training of some sort and there are real possibilities for deployments, my husband has been deployed multiple times.  If you are not prepared for these things I would not go the military route at all.  However, the Guard would allow you to have a civilian job, work one weekend a month that you are paid for and then possible loan repayment.  Not a bad option if you are up for the challenge.  I agree that is a massive amount of student loan debt.  We were frivolous in our twenties about taking out student loans as well, just paid ours off....10 years later.  However we were at 60k for two people, so nowhere near where you are at for one person.  

[mmiller3]

...  I would NOT recommend the military.  Your lower salary and time commitment will preclude you from taking extra shifts and making more money.  Before anyone freaks out that I am somehow anti-military, I am a USAF vet.  You just don't make enough in the service to take on debt like that....

Active duty can provide some pretty significant loan repayment, so don't dismiss it without at least weighing your options. That said, I would certainly look at your situation first. You will make a lot less in the .mil, but you would make up for some of it in loan repayments, housing, etc. If you are single or even married with an understanding spouse and no kids, it can be great. Anything more, and I would really have to be desperate. Military life is hard on families, especially if you are deployed, move around a lot, etc.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

Another great thing about military and income based repayment combined with PSLF is that housing allowance is not calculated into the payment. I pay A LOT less into my student loans than I would if I was civilian, so much so I say I take home as much or more than my classmates. At least the ones in FP. I feel like I do pretty well.

 

Full disclosure, I'm not doing all my 10 years of PSLF in the military though.

[BruceBanner]

Thanks everyone. I agree it is a massive amount of debt. I am ashamed, to be honest. I have some serious decisions to make. 

 

If I'm being honest with myself I don't think the military is for me; certainly not active duty. There are a lot of factors involved but I think I would ultimately be more miserable with that commitment, and the financial incentives just aren't compelling enough.

 

NHSC offers $50k max for a 2 year commitment...which isnt bad, and I may still consider it. There are sites in my state.

 

The drawback with leaving my job is that I have incredible benefits (free health care, union, pension, retirement, guaranteed bi-annual raises), and it qualifies for the PSLF program. So in 10 years I could be debt-free, but there is no guarantee since this program has yet to pay out their first wave---in 2017. So making minimums in hopes that works out---and it may---could backfire if they nix it or cap the forgiveness amount.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

Most experts agree that previous and current borrowers are in the clear. The PSLF was written into my promissory note and you can believe I would take it to federal court if my contract was violated, as I'm sure so many others would. Enough to justify a class action.

 

https://studentloanhero.com/featured/public-service-loan-forgiveness-disappear/

 

There are many more links to other experts, but the internet is pretty spotty here, so I'll leave it up to you guys with your fancy smancy high speed stuff.

[Katera]

You could go into full crisis mode. Live with parents or rent a freakishly cheap 1 bedroom. Have 1 used car. Set a food budget, don't eat out. Put every single dime towards loan payment. With discipline you could eventually pay them off. It's going to take a massive amount of sacrifice though, but just remember, those loans are NOT going anywhere. They can't be written off by bankruptcy or anything else. You can thank Congress for that.

[BruceBanner]

Most experts agree that previous and current borrowers are in the clear. The PSLF was written into my promissory note and you can believe I would take it to federal court if my contract was violated, as I'm sure so many others would. Enough to justify a class action.

 

https://studentloanhero.com/featured/public-service-loan-forgiveness-disappear/

 

There are many more links to other experts, but the internet is pretty spotty here, so I'll leave it up to you guys with your fancy smancy high speed stuff.

 

Thanks for the link---reassuring especially given the promissory note language. It definitely seems like my best bet---and the biggest potential savings--keeping my AGI low so my IBR payments are low, and riding out the next decade.

 

As far as "crisis mode", I've explored that, but 1) I'm married, 2) we own a home, and 3) we cant live with our parents. So some belt-tightening may be in order but not quite in those extremes.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

Student loans can be discharged if you can show undue hardship. There are studies to show that few try and those that do 50% have at least some discharged. I will say that I think it would be pretty hard for someone making our salary to demonstrate hardship with the IBR systems in place.

 

http://abovethelaw.com/2016/01/the-tetzlaff-aftermath-discharging-student-loans-in-bankruptcy-might-be-easier-than-we-thought/

[PAMEDIC]

I would keep looking at the National Guard. They offer $75k in loan repayment for your first 3 years and then $20k a year offered with each 3-year commitment.
 

Honestly, being in the NG is pretty fun. It gives you the opportunity to do some amazing things. In the last few months, I have driven in tanks, flown in helicopters, fired cannons.
The Guard offers course on areas like trauma, tropical medicine, and you can even go to flight surgeon school to be an Aeromedical PA.

[ventana]

Hard to show hardship when you are making well north of 100k per year

 

Honestly, just get some Indian reservation job or other PHS job with massive loan repayment and let them pay them off

 

OR

 

Live stupid simple and work 60-80 hours per week for a few years....

 

As for military paying way less then civilian - they now have special pay and that makes it pretty decent - BUT they own you

[BruceBanner]

I would keep looking at the National Guard. They offer $75k in loan repayment for your first 3 years and then $20k a year offered with each 3-year commitment.

 

Honestly, being in the NG is pretty fun. It gives you the opportunity to do some amazing things. In the last few months, I have driven in tanks, flown in helicopters, fired cannons.

The Guard offers course on areas like trauma, tropical medicine, and you can even go to flight surgeon school to be an Aeromedical PA.

 

Where are you getting these numbers? The NG website and others have it listed as $50k lifetime max, and you have to enlist as E4 or lower, among a bunch of other stipulations. 

 

The Navy option Maverick listed above seems to be the best military route; but I'm not sure going on 35 I'm willing to commit to 7 years of active duty service.

[PAMEDIC]

Where are you getting these numbers? The NG website and others have it listed as $50k lifetime max, and you have to enlist as E4 or lower, among a bunch of other stipulations. 

 

You are looking in the wrong places. First off, PAs are officers.

 

https://www.nationalguard.com/healthcare-bonuses-and-loans

 

My advise would be to talk to an AMEDD recruiter.

 

Edit:

 

From the site:

 

 

 

HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONAL LOAN REPAYMENT PROGRAM (HPLRP)

 

To be eligible, Army National Guard officers will serve in the Selected Reserve. For each year of satisfactory service in the Selected Reserve, any DoD-authorized student loan(s) will be considered eligible for repayment.

Physician assistants, social workers and clinical psychologists may qualify for loan repayments up to $25,000 per year ($75,000 lifetime cap).

 

 

 

So that would be $25k a year for the first 3 years. This would be in addition to the officer pay you would receive for your "one weekend a month and 2 weeks a year".

 

After your first thee years, you can get the ...

 

 

Medical Professional Officer Special Pay

 

Physician Assistants and Social Workers:

• $20,000 per year for a three-year contract
• $15,000 per year for a two-year contract
• $10,000 per year for a one-year contract

 

 

 

It isn't a bad gig. You get to work your normal job and then get to do this one weekend a month and collect an extra $30k+ to go towards your debts.

 

I would argue it is a much better deal than serving full time on active duty.

[BruceBanner]

Hard to show hardship when you are making well north of 100k per year

 

Honestly, just get some Indian reservation job or other PHS job with massive loan repayment and let them pay them off

 

OR

 

Live stupid simple and work 60-80 hours per week for a few years....

 

As for military paying way less then civilian - they now have special pay and that makes it pretty decent - BUT they own you

 

IHS offers $20k a year max. NHSC offers $50k for a 2 year commitment, but is vague on the repayment amounts thereafter.

 

So with IHS I would need to work for 10 years to pay off my loans...over 10 actually. NHSC would be as little as 8 years but likely longer.

 

The best military option I've seen is the Navy medical program, and that's 7 years of active duty as I noted above.

 

And obviously making 100k+ a year does not even remotely qualify for financial hardship.

 

The PSLF program is long, but saves me the most $$ in the long run. 

 

The only other option I see is some serious sacrifice to both lifestyle and investments for the next 7-10 years to pay back every penny, plus interest.

[electric130]

I tend to agree pslf seems to be best option for you. I think you really have to want to do military service, there are sacrifices,even without kids, deployments are hard.

If pslf payments are not overwhelming, build it into your budget and just plug away for those 10 years.

[Katera]

You are looking in the wrong places. First off, PAs are officers.

 

https://www.nationalguard.com/healthcare-bonuses-and-loans

 

My advise would be to talk to an AMEDD recruiter.

 

Edit:

 

From the site:

 

 

 

HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONAL LOAN REPAYMENT PROGRAM (HPLRP)

 

To be eligible, Army National Guard officers will serve in the Selected Reserve. For each year of satisfactory service in the Selected Reserve, any DoD-authorized student loan(s) will be considered eligible for repayment.

Physician assistants, social workers and clinical psychologists may qualify for loan repayments up to $25,000 per year ($75,000 lifetime cap).

 

 

 

So that would be $25k a year for the first 3 years. This would be in addition to the officer pay you would receive for your "one weekend a month and 2 weeks a year".

 

After your first thee years, you can get the ...

 

 

Medical Professional Officer Special Pay

 

Physician Assistants and Social Workers:

• $20,000 per year for a three-year contract
• $15,000 per year for a two-year contract
• $10,000 per year for a one-year contract

 

 

 

It isn't a bad gig. You get to work your normal job and then get to do this one weekend a month and collect an extra $30k+ to go towards your debts.

 

I would argue it is a much better deal than serving full time on active duty.

 

 

 

Right up to the point where you are tagged....and deployed.  Then as they say, "S**t gets real".

 

Your full-time job would then be active duty...with active duty pay.  No ability to work extra, etc.  Oh, and you're likely overseas away from your wife.....family.  That is definitely not for everyone.

 

I'm not sure what specialty you are in, but if you can do Urgent Care or the ER, you can make upwards of $850 per shift.  Just bust butt for a few years and pour everything extra into the loans.  Starting the military as a married mid 30 year old?  Bad idea.

[PAMEDIC]

 

 Starting the military as a married mid 30 year old?  Bad idea.

 

Worked for me. :)

[msusparty]

Hey BB,

 

I am in a similar situation as you (200k in debt).  I acquired this through various graduate degrees and an expensive PA school, too. Here's my take, for what it's worth:

 

From my perspective, you're in pretty good shape.  By pursuing PSLF via IBR payments, you'll most likely be student debt free in 10 years.  I know there has been talk about getting rid of PSLF or capping it at 57k, but like others have mentioned, you'll most likely be grandfathered in.  And you mentioned that 10 years seems like a long time, but depending on your perspective, 10 years isn't bad!  I don't have the PSLF option at the moment, so I'm a bit jealous.  I encourage you to stay on course with PSLF and I bet you'll be A-OK.  Oh, and if you're not interested in the military, I wouldn't make that jump just for the sake of paying off your loans a few years earlier compared to PSLF. 

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

Right up to the point where you are tagged....and deployed. Then as they say, "S**t gets real".

 

Your full-time job would then be active duty...with active duty pay. No ability to work extra, etc. Oh, and you're likely overseas away from your wife.....family. That is definitely not for everyone.

 

I'm not sure what specialty you are in, but if you can do Urgent Care or the ER, you can make upwards of $850 per shift. Just bust butt for a few years and pour everything extra into the loans. Starting the military as a married mid 30 year old? Bad idea.

I agree that I think the military is a bad option for Bruce, for many reasons. Bruce has already reported in other threads that he is happiest with a less busy work load and able to spend more time with patients. He won't get this in the military, except on deployments, which have their own headaches as you've stated. Further it's not worth the money to give up your freedom, which is what you are giving up to help ensure the freedom of others. Don't get me wrong, I'm very glad to be serving. I won't be extending as the long term goals of the navy of me as an administrator conflicts with my own goals.

 

Having taken that long walk for this short glass of water, do you know how long and how much it would take to pay off 210,000 dollars? I know because I did a masters before PA and managed about the same amount of debt as Bruce. It would sure be a bit more than a few years. Minimum on rough calculations would be 2,300 dollars per month for TEN years. Even making $850 per shift, which would be pretty good for someone without EM experience and I'm sure wouldn't be some job letting you see a patients every 20-30 mins, he wouldn't be paying that off in a few years without some serious sacrifice to his outside life, family, putting off saving for retirement, and kids.

[TheFatMan]

If you serve 36 months active duty, I want to say you can use your GI bill towards student loan repayment? I am not 100% on this, however. Something to look into.

[BruceBanner]

Thanks for the clarification pamedic. That's not a bad deal really, but I just cant get on board with a 6+ year commitment to the military, even if it is the reserves. I have a lot of respect for servicemen and women but for me personally, I think I would be miserable. The only reason I would be doing it is to pay off my loans, and it would only kill about 75% of my debt. 

 

 

Hey BB,

 

I am in a similar situation as you (200k in debt).  I acquired this through various graduate degrees and an expensive PA school, too. Here's my take, for what it's worth:

 

From my perspective, you're in pretty good shape.  By pursuing PSLF via IBR payments, you'll most likely be student debt free in 10 years.  I know there has been talk about getting rid of PSLF or capping it at 57k, but like others have mentioned, you'll most likely be grandfathered in.  And you mentioned that 10 years seems like a long time, but depending on your perspective, 10 years isn't bad!  I don't have the PSLF option at the moment, so I'm a bit jealous.  I encourage you to stay on course with PSLF and I bet you'll be A-OK.  Oh, and if you're not interested in the military, I wouldn't make that jump just for the sake of paying off your loans a few years earlier compared to PSLF. 

 

Thanks for the input. I think you are right...if I was giving advice to another PA I'd probably say the same thing, unless they really had a desire to serve in the military. With or without loans, there's a good chance I'd be a PA for the next 10 anyway, just from an earning perspective. And it took me 4 years to get into a PSLF job!!

[BruceBanner]

I agree that I think the military is a bad option for Bruce, for many reasons. Bruce has already reported in other threads that he is happiest with a less busy work load and able to spend more time with patients. He won't get this in the military, except on deployments, which have their own headaches as you've stated. Further it's not worth the money to give up your freedom, which is what you are giving up to help ensure the freedom of others. Don't get me wrong, I'm very glad to be serving. I won't be extending as the long term goals of the navy of me as an administrator conflicts with my own goals.

 

Having taken that long walk for this short glass of water, do you know how long and how much it would take to pay off 210,000 dollars? I know because I did a masters before PA and managed about the same amount of debt as Bruce. It would sure be a bit more than a few years. Minimum on rough calculations would be 2,300 dollars per month for TEN years. Even making $850 per shift, which would be pretty good for someone without EM experience and I'm sure wouldn't be some job letting you see a patients every 20-30 mins, he wouldn't be paying that off in a few years without some serious sacrifice to his outside life, family, putting off saving for retirement, and kids.

 

My thoughts exactly. As I approach 35 I've realized that I need to get serious quickly about investing if I ever want to be free from the shackles of mandatory employment. Retiring early from full-time work wont happen if I'm dumping every extra cent in to loans for the next 10 years. It's also my gut feeling that I would hate the military, but I wanted to explore the option. 

[Maverick87]

My thoughts exactly. As I approach 35 I've realized that I need to get serious quickly about investing if I ever want to be free from the shackles of mandatory employment. Retiring early from full-time work wont happen if I'm dumping every extra cent in to loans for the next 10 years. It's also my gut feeling that I would hate the military, but I wanted to explore the option. 

 

Yup. It's an awesome position to be in. I am completely debt-free and have a ton of money saved up. My investments have really taken off this year to the point that, at 29, I could theoretically retire from full-time work if I really wanted to. I think I would get bored though.