Vaccine skeptic to chair national vaccine safety commission

[camoman1234]

Having said all of THAT, I would be in favor of slowing things down just a little.  I was pretty impressed at the number of vax that kids get in a short time.  

 

I'd like to see one or two at a time, like every month, to meet the same targets ( if you need, say,  3x before one year old or whatever).  But that isn't as convenient, and you have to drag the kid in more times.  I was a single parent, so I get that, for sure.

 

It seems like a decent compromise for the potential "vax combination" problem if targets are still met.  Just food for thought I guess.

Convenience does not outweigh risk...

[camoman1234]

You can't impeach one large organization or entire system based on one event.  Then we would have to say that (for instance) all LAPD detectives take a bunch of shortcuts all the time, or that all MMR Autism researchers completely just make it all up (Wakefield style) or are on the take or whatever.  

 

Dr. Dubin and Subway Jared both did time for kid porn, but not ALL Florida doctor-turned-textbook-authors and sandwich shop spokespersons are pedos.

 

Just for fun, let's say that a couple of (or a whole section) the researchers really DID decide to make some quick money for polluting the studies for Evil Big Pharma.  It doesn't make the other parts of the study, any of the other vaccine studies, or any of the other work that the CDC does, automatically suspect.

 

It also doesn't change the truth that vaccines don't cause autism.  

 

What's cool about science is that someone will come along and try to repeat your experiment, looking to get the same results so they may take it in another direction or build on it.   If they don't get the same results, they might stop and publish to say "hey, something isn't right here" and let someone else read it and do a study to figure out why.  

 

This happened to the "gluten free" guys.  The study that "invented" the craze was superseded by the original authors, I think about a year ago.  They did the study, a bunch of other studies came out saying "hey, there's some problems with your results", they read that stuff and learned more, and published a follow up study saying "yeah, we were wrong about that gluten free stuff".  It's the really cool thing about science!

 

You can Google that for more info, sorry for the tangent.  

 

Anyway, back on point and Btw, the preservatives and such were the first to go.  Mercury/Thermsiserolloliserlol (whatever) = wrong type of mercury.  Formaldehyde = not enough concentration.  Your body produced more formaldehyde in the time it took you to read this post than is in a vax dose.  

Never said that just cause one person did one thing makes all research invalid. I just meant the CDC screwed up big time and there needs to be a non-government organization that does a true study of all vaccines and there combos, double blinded, RCT. Also, a study of vaccinated vs unvaccinated children. Please find these studies for me if you believe they do exist. Again, I am NOT against vaccines, just for safe vaccines and valid research that is not biased and/or paid for by the maker of the vaccine. Also, thimerosal is still in the multi-dose vaccines.  

[Reality Check 2]

Try getting people to bring their kids in every 42 days when we can hardly get them to come in at scheduled intervals of 2, 4, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18 months and then 4 yrs old.

 

JUST caught a kid yesterday who is 16 and had only one varicella vaccine (one of my least worries) but is somehow still in school when 2 shots by the age of 5 are required by the state. Mom was just clueless. 

 

I have parents who only want to do ONE SHOT at one visit and usually only once a year. This just won't cut it.

 

So, I do NOT advocate for pick and choose lolly gag injection schedules but would agree to some compromise as long as folks get the stupid shots.

 

Go from the money side. You can only charge for ONE well exam per year for child. Nurse visits don't "make" any money - so bringing the kids in all over the map at random times ties up nursing staff, creates confusion on shot records and leads to more likelihood of mistakes or omissions or even duplicates. Some practices won't want to do this because it isn't a Money Maker - I could care less. Just get the kid immunized.

[south]

Yeah, all good points.  Maybe the schedule is already maximized.  I don't know, and don't currently work with kids; it was just something that I thought of back on my rotations.  

[camoman1234]

Try getting people to bring their kids in every 42 days when we can hardly get them to come in at scheduled intervals of 2, 4, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18 months and then 4 yrs old.

 

JUST caught a kid yesterday who is 16 and had only one varicella vaccine (one of my least worries) but is somehow still in school when 2 shots by the age of 5 are required by the state. Mom was just clueless. 

 

I have parents who only want to do ONE SHOT at one visit and usually only once a year. This just won't cut it.

 

So, I do NOT advocate for pick and choose lolly gag injection schedules but would agree to some compromise as long as folks get the stupid shots.

 

Go from the money side. You can only charge for ONE well exam per year for child. Nurse visits don't "make" any money - so bringing the kids in all over the map at random times ties up nursing staff, creates confusion on shot records and leads to more likelihood of mistakes or omissions or even duplicates. Some practices won't want to do this because it isn't a Money Maker - I could care less. Just get the kid immunized.

We are getting way off topic so this will be my last post on this topic, I am not here to argue as we will never agree with one another. 

"Try getting people to bring their kids in every 42 days when we can hardly get them to come in at scheduled intervals of 2, 4, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18 months and then 4 yrs old." Again, this does NOT negate the fact to give these children so many vaccines at one, just cause it is inconvenient. That thought of yours about convenience > safety is asinine. The safety of my children and yours is much more important than the inconvenience. I won't even go down the rabbit hole about a parent only wanting to do 1 shot per visit. Lastly, you can charge a 99213 for the subsequent visits, so there is no money lost.  

[Reality Check 2]

I do not personally believe that there was a cover up - I trust snopes to a certain degree.

I am not a conspiracy theorist.

 

In my 25 yrs I have seen so very few vaccine reactions in adults and children that I have no point of reference for being scared them or seeing that things need to be changed at this point. Fear mongering and reactionary groups spread a lot of misinformation.

 

My kids are fully vaccinated and totally fine - high level athletes and students. We have asthma in the group but so do I. Nothing in their lives leads me to believe that I have hurt them by vaccinating them to the current schedule.

 

So, based on original post - I don't think there is a conspiracy or cover up and things seem to be working well. There will always be outliers and exceptions.

[cbrsmurf]

Never said that just cause one person did one thing makes all research invalid. I just meant the CDC screwed up big time and there needs to be a non-government organization that does a true study of all vaccines and there combos, double blinded, RCT. Also, a study of vaccinated vs unvaccinated children. Please find these studies for me if you believe they do exist. Again, I am NOT against vaccines, just for safe vaccines and valid research that is not biased and/or paid for by the maker of the vaccine. Also, thimerosal is still in the multi-dose vaccines.  

 

Gardasil/HPV vaccine is the first one that pops into my mind that had a RCT

 

Certainly we need to have robust studies, but I doubt vaccines cause long-term side effects.  

 

First, they are not traditional pharmaceutical medications.  They generally proteins/sugars or live/attenuated microbes.  They are unlikely to cause long-term side effects (unless you are unfortunate enough to get infected, of course)

 

Secondly, dose and frequency.  The amount of actual vaccine/chemicals received is so small and infrequent, you'd probably need something extremely toxic to cause any changes.  

 

Thirdly, I have to get back to work.

[camoman1234]

Gardasil/HPV vaccine is the first one that pops into my mind that had a RCT

 

Certainly we need to have robust studies, but I doubt vaccines cause long-term side effects.  

 

First, they are not traditional pharmaceutical medications.  They generally proteins/sugars or live/attenuated microbes.  They are unlikely to cause long-term side effects (unless you are unfortunate enough to get infected, of course)

 

Secondly, dose and frequency.  The amount of actual vaccine/chemicals received is so small and infrequent, you'd probably need something extremely toxic to cause any changes.  

 

Thirdly, I have to get back to work.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3034689/

Then go see table 1: the comparator adjuvant is the same vaccine adjuvant (AAHS,amorphous aluminum hydroxyphosphate sulfate) and in one study was in higher concentration. Also, all the funding sources were Merck or GSK. How can one use the same adjuvant as a placebo...? That is like comparing a BigMac to a Whopper and saying the BigMac does not cause heart disease/obesity/hyperlipidemia at any faster rate than any other food. Also, how can one not assume there is bias in the studies when the vaccine maker is funding the research...These are the simple questions people are asking/wondering about vaccines. Again, NOT against vaccines, just concerns/comments/questions that don't add up. 

 "The amount of actual vaccine/chemicals received is so small and infrequent, you'd probably need something extremely toxic to cause any changes. " This comment has one major word in it...I'm sure you know what it is, but I will point it out....."probably", re-read your sentence above. Also, even if the concentration is small (what is this compared to?), doesn't mean you won't have a big immune response. 

[cop to pa]

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/48/4/456

 

Gerber, J.S., Offit, P.A. (2009). "Vaccines and Autism: A Tale of Shifting Hypotheses". Clinical Infectious Disease 48(4): 456-461. doi: 10.1086/596476.

 

The link was through Pubmed, so you may need to log in to view.  It discusses multiple vaccine administrations and immune responses in infants and neonates.  Haven't chased after the cited references yet, but the ones in the 30's are cited.  I may look over the next few days.

[camoman1234]

Also, don't just focus on Autism. Just because a provider had never seen a reaction doesn't mean they don't have other reactions such has allergies, bowel issues, chronic rashes etc. Also, most neurological disorders that have been linked to vaccines happen over weeks to months. Not a reaction in the clinic when the patient is there for 10 mins.

[HMtoPA]

Yes less efficacious than vaccination, that is common sense and research does back this claim. Again, not to argue the point that vaccination is "bad", but again questioning various different topics of vaccines.  

 

 

Wait, less efficacious than vaccines? Or you mean that vaccines are less efficacious than "naturally acquired" immunity? Even if it is the latter, there is simply no practicable and safe way to expose kids to most of this stuff other than vaccination. In any case, vaccine efficacy is well-documented, and easy enough to prove yourself by drawing titers on your patients, should you wish to do so.

 

Convenience does not outweigh risk...

 

Risk of what, exactly? I feel like you're hinting at all of this anti-vaxxer pseudoscience without actually coming out and saying it. Do you think that vaccination (and especially multiple concurrent vaccinations) is dangerous? And what, specifically, are the dangers you suppose are associated with vaccination? And how do you reconcile your theoretical dangers with the actual danger of not vaccinating?

[camoman1234]

Yes natural immunity > vaccination as vaccines only give temporary immunity. We have to many vaccines these days and are fear full of catching any kind of illness. When I was a child I got dtap, mmr and polio. I think giving multidoses at 1 time is dangerous. As there is zero EBM to back it up. The dangers to me are to many vaccines, to many given at one time and to many given at to young of an age. I don't think my children are going to get hep B their first hours of life...

[HMtoPA]

Yes natural immunity > vaccination as vaccines only give temporary immunity. We have to many vaccines these days and are fear full of catching any kind of illness. When I was a child I got dtap, mmr and polio. I think giving multidoses at 1 time is dangerous. As there is zero EBM to back it up. The dangers to me are to many vaccines, to many given at one time and to many given at to young of an age. I don't think my children are going to get hep B their first hours of life...

 

 

You are still not stating what the horrible outcomes of these "dangers" are - too many vaccines, given at once and at too young an age results in what exactly? And why are the vaccines you received as a child relevant? Is there no room for progress? I had chicken pox as a child, as most of my peers did, yet our children never will - why isn't that a win?

 

I frankly can't believe I'm having this discussion with a fellow PA. Your logic and arguments reek of reading too many science-illiterate mommy blogs...

[camoman1234]

You are still not stating what the horrible outcomes of these "dangers" are - too many vaccines, given at once and at too young an age results in what exactly? And why are the vaccines you received as a child relevant? Is there no room for progress? I had chicken pox as a child, as most of my peers did, yet our children never will - why isn't that a win?

 

I frankly can't believe I'm having this discussion with a fellow PA. Your logic and arguments reek of reading too many science-illiterate mommy blogs...

I can't believe you don't question things as a medical professional. If you want to be a sheep that is fine, but I choose not to be. The dangers of too many vaccines at once are unknown as there are ZERO studies, as a PA you should want EBM/studies for your patients and your family...I do not get your logic on this matter. Also, read this study and I will post the conclusion: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3314990/ 

Front Pharmacol. 2012; 3: 46.

Published online 2012 Mar 29. doi:  10.3389/fphar.2012.00046

"We hope that this review will contribute to laying to rest the myth of the “leaky” or “immature” blood–brain barrier and focus attention on the need to understand better the level of function of barrier mechanisms that protect the brain from exposure to drugs and toxins, so that clinical advice will be based on the reality of evidence rather than teleological belief."

Also, regarding the varicella vaccine, not having chicken pox is fine, but the vaccine does not give you life time immunity. Also, it makes me wonder why so many adults are getting shingles. The theory has been posted on here, but I will state it again that adults are not getting exposed from their children/grandchildren thus these adults are not getting a "natural" boost. Again, we need EBM to back these claims, but everyone just wants to give everyone the shingles shot and not even think about the increase in shingles... It is great to have advancements in medicine, but having safe/valid advancements are key. Causation does not equal correlation, but again look at the trends going on in this World. It should make you think and wonder what is going on. Again, I think Autism, chronic allergies, asthma, eczema, etc are NOT just linked to vaccines, but to various other causes such as GMO's, pesticides, processed foods, etc. But we do not need to disregard vaccines either, we need to look into all these things. Lastly, my logic does reek of to many science journals, but these are EBM and critical thinking on my part, NOT mommy blogs. I will not waste my time discussing this with you as it seems you have your mind made up and do not want to question anything/critical think about trends occurring around you/us. I will focus my energy and time on my family, patients and colleagues that do want to make a difference in this evolving World. 

[HMtoPA]

I can't believe you don't question things as a medical professional. If you want to be a sheep that is fine, but I choose not to be. The dangers of too many vaccines at once are unknown as there are ZERO studies, as a PA you should want EBM/studies for your patients and your family...I do not get your logic on this matter. Also, read this study and I will post the conclusion: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3314990/ 

"We hope that this review will contribute to laying to rest the myth of the “leaky” or “immature” blood–brain barrier and focus attention on the need to understand better the level of function of barrier mechanisms that protect the brain from exposure to drugs and toxins, so that clinical advice will be based on the reality of evidence rather than teleological belief."

Also, regarding the varicella vaccine, not having chicken pox is fine, but the vaccine does not give you life time immunity. Also, it makes me wonder why so many adults are getting shingles. The theory has been posted on here, but I will state it again that adults are not getting exposed from their children/grandchildren thus these adults are not getting a "natural" boost. Again, we need EBM to back these claims, but everyone just wants to give everyone the shingles shot and not even think about the increase in shingles... It is great to have advancements in medicine, but having safe/valid advancements are key. Causation does not equal correlation, but again look at the trends going on in this World. It should make you think and wonder what is going on. Again, I think Autism, chronic allergies, asthma, eczema, etc are NOT just linked to vaccines, but to various other causes such as GMO's, pesticides, processed foods, etc. But we do not need to disregard vaccines either, we need to look into all these things. Lastly, my logic does reek of to many science journals, but these are EBM and critical thinking on my part, NOT mommy blogs. I will not waste my time discussing this with you as it seems you have your mind made up and do not want to question anything/critical think about trends occurring around you/us. I will focus my energy and time on my family, patients and colleagues that do want to make a difference in this evolving World. 

 

Adults are getting shingles because they were "naturally infected" by VZV as children, got chicken pox (with all natural antibodies!), and then the virus promptly went dormant in their dorsal root ganglia, only to emerge decades later as shingles. If they had received a varicella vaccine in the first place (had it existed), then shingles wouldn't even be a possibility for them now.

 

Anyway, you keep hinting and implying at all of these dangers, but don't name any. Just that it is "unknown," which I guess is enough for you to promote mass hysteria and panic in your patient population. But shouldn't they be known? We've immunized millions of kids as per ACIP guidelines, surely a pattern of significant sequelae would have presented itself by now?

 

But I guess it's easier to just lump together all the things you don't fully understand (allergies, cancer, fibromyalgia, migraines, etc.) and then blame them all on a group of other things you don't fully understand (GMOs, vaccines, fluoride). Pretty convenient, actually!