not taking the PANRE or failing the written test

[TWR]

I generalities, does any know anyone who lost their job or forced to move to another state because of the failing or not taking the PANRE?

[Febrifuge]

In generalities, no PA can practice without having passed the PANCE, and have to pass PANRE to maintain their "-C." All 50 states have similar laws in that regard, at least. -- Someone correct me if that's not the case, please. --

 

I don't personally know of any, but then again I am a working PA, and therefore I and everyone I work with has passed PANCE/ PANRE. This is why we tend to recommend taking the PANRE in the year prior to your certification expiring, so that if you fail and need to retake it, you still have time left on your existing certification.

 

If there is a more specific question, please provide more detail. Thanks.

[TWR]

sorry for the confusion. The question is related to not taking or failing the PANRE after having taken it on previous cycles. Is that a better way to phrase the question? What I was curious to know if anyone knows some one who was forced to leave a state requiring the passage of the PANRE or changed occupations. I was thinking of the 70 y/o PA who did not pass and was main provider for his family with Down's child all because of the "Test". Speaking of which, why do you tell people to take it a year early just in case they "fail". Shouldn't the recert be an affirmation rather than a challenge that maybe should be taken a year early to give room to retake???

[Febrifuge]

It's a pass/fail test. I guess you could phrase it as "I recommend people take the PANRE in the year prior to the expiration of their certification, so that if they need to, they can redouble their efforts and dedicate enough time to preparation, if they need to make a second attempt," but the meaning is the same. When I took mine last year, I definitely was hoping I passed, and I definitely would have been upset if I had failed the test.

 

Do I know anyone who lost a job because they were insufficiently able to maintain their certification? No, sorry, I'm not aware of anyone in that situation.

[DizzyJ]

There are multiple states that do not require continued certification to practice.  Although, a malpractice policy or hospital bylaws can require continued certification.  

 

https://www.aapa.org/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=599

[Reality Check 2]

However, many insurance companies, hospitals and credentialing bodies require CURRENT certification to maintain reimbursement.

 

The corporate entities near me in Washington State will not hire UNcertified PAs who do not have current NCCPA standing. 

 

I have never met a PA in 25 years who has lost a job or a career due to PANRE.

 

One of my classmates has horrific test anxiety and struggled with PANCE 25 years ago when it was still held in auditoriums with bubble sheets. She failed at least twice. She got medicated and had a proctor and was in a room alone taking the test and did fine. She is still certified to this day. She is probably one of the few who thrives in the cloistered confines of Pearson Testing cubicles......

 

I restest next year which is roughly 60 days away..... I am using my review materials and a ton of stuff a colleague gave to me after her cert last year. I always have a tiny self doubt and angst but see this is a "have to" and will just get through it -I have done it before. I don't consider myself any dumber than years ago, thankfully.

 

The test isn't perfect but it is what we have - just a "have to".

[TWR]

I would refer all to the Huddle via AAPA. There are people who have lost jobs for not passing the PANRE after passing for several cycles.

[Noreaster]

Agree with TWR.  There are some, who have lost their jobs and very livelihood due to not passing the PANRE. 

 

It's also a bit of a heated subject with the AAPA as they have been recently increasing their efforts to let the NCCPA know that the stakes are too high to hold one's very position, job, livelihood over 1 exam after potentially 10 years of a focused subspecially, which is the case with many PAs.  The AAPA presented to the NCCPA that the high-stakes exam/PANRE should not be.

 

I've learned of some, who've lost their jobs.  With EACH of these people, they had very solid jobs and careers and were doing very well.  They weren't these screw-ups.   

I also recently learned of a couple of PAs in Ortho, who I know, who failed the PANRE then took time off work, paid for travel for a course and then was re-contacted by the NCCPA to say they made a mistake and they actually had passed.  ...something about there were too many who failed so they had to re-calculate and re-adjust a curve, etc, etc.  These PAs were infuriated b/c of the heart-break, hardship, taking time from their job, intense stress when their jobs were suddenly on the line and spending a lot of money (their own) for travel and taking a course.  I would have been infuriated as well.  These are well-established PAs, with very solid jobs, and strong practitioners. 

 

Although I respect the fact that our profession maintains laterality of ability to move to different areas of medicine, I do not feel a high stakes test is needed.  There are other ways to maintain our C, other than holding a huge computerized high stakes test over our heads, of which can literally professionally decapitate one's job and very livelihood.  The small percentage that happens to, it's absolutely horrific.  There's no ability to give a notice to their employer so, the practice is acutely impacted, which ultimately means the patients are and the PA, him or herself and their family, are hurled into humiliation, deep upset/anguish, and potentially financial difficulties or even financial ruins. 

I feel strongly that no PA should be faced with this...to lose their job acutely like this over a stinking exam.  If you look at the PAs, who've gone through this, it's typically the PA, who's practiced for many years, holds a great position, is well trusted, even excelled in their role, and in a subspecialty.  A PA from the very first graduating PA program class actually lost his C and I watched a video interview and he couldn't keep from holding back tears when he talked about it...absolutely heart-breaking and it makes me very angry that we've allowed the highly esoteric, prideful, arrogant, and defensive certifying body to continue to allow this over the many years. 

 

Having taken the PANRE, myself, recently and failed, despite passing prior exams 1st try fine, I feel differently than I did when first graduated.  When one is established, found a niche, even excelled, yet, due to one exam, one's entire livelihood is at stake, it is extreme.  

This last PANRE, I noticed a significant difference in the exam vs prior.  For example, the ortho questions were obscure and absolutely were not for generalists.  I've worked in ortho for over a decade and I struggled with some of the ortho questions this last PANRE--not b/c I was overthinking as I always take a generalist approach to ortho questions on the PANRE.  Also, there was supposed to be 10% of ortho questions yet the exam had a very small amount of ortho questions.  The last PANRE 6 years ago, I got like a 98% correct in ortho section without studying even a lick of ortho before the test.  This past/recent PANRE, I got a 58% in ortho and 89% in pulmonology.  The ortho questions were bazarro and only a few.  One of the ortho questions had a fracture pattern I had not even ever seen in over a decade of working full-time in ortho, including covering ER call.  I am NOT at all confident the "blueprint" is followed as the NCCPA claims. 

 

I've been reading up on the stuff between AAPA and NCCPA and I absolutely have lost not only respect but also trust in the NCCPA and don't believe they're truly supportive of our profession.  I think they're truly supportive of their own entity.  Yet, I didn't jump to conclusions about it.  Rather, I've read and also called and spoken with the AAPA and NCCPA recently.  From reading and talking with both bodies, I get a feeling of openness, transparency, solution-oriented, openness, and willingness to think out of the box with the AAPA and, conversely, closed-ness, stiff-necked, un-open, bull-s*** mumbo-jumbo, non-transparent, even arrogant and defensive feel from NCCPA.  An other example is: I was quoted by NCCPA staff, more than once, that the pass rate for PANRE for not passing 1st attempt was about 84%.  If you read the recent email the NCCPA sent out to us that "97% ultimately pass."  Hmm.. huge difference right?  Well, which is it?  In this same email, there's absolutely no language of how many of these took the PANRE 2 or 4 times, or even took it again--after the 4 times having lost their C and paid more money/dues and had to get 50 more CMEs to regain their C.  So, this "97%" could actually be an accumulation of the 4 attempts and then the 2 attempts to re-gain the C, totally 6 times.  SIX TIMES!  How much money do you think they make on that?  Here's a hint... A LOT !!  In the recent email, the language is HIGHLY biased and paints a different picture--other than the details of reality.  I actually asked the NCCPA what the stats were for PAs, who lost their C due to failed high stakes PANRE and their reply was, [...oh, we don't "keep" those kinds of statistics].  um... riiiiight..  sure you don't.  It's more likely that they conveniently keep them to themselves.  Of course they "keep" those kinds of stats.  I think we really need to wake up to this certifying body of ours.  They need to be brought into the light and everything should be transparent and exposed. 

 

Thankfully, the AAPA, and ARC-PA having had a strong meeting with NCCPA, there was impact and the NCCPA is retracting the huge changes that they were about to push upon us, which I do not feel was what the majority of PAs wanted, despite them saying they polled us in order to "support what we want."  I was at a conference about a year ago and there was a NCCPA staff, who spoke presenting these changes and, by far, the majority at the conference spoke against what this NCCPA person was saying.  The NCCPA representative just kept saying how good it was for the profession and had his own agenda--regardless of what we PAs were saying from the audience.  It was the oddest dynamic but not an unfamiliar one, whatsoever.  The NCCPA clearly has their own agenda and, trust me, if it wasn't for the AAPA getting in their face, this new PANRE big changes would have been forced upon us and clearly would have even been worse than it already is.

 

For the first time in my PA career, I'm deeply discouraged about this and will be very likely considering what else I might do, instead of being a PA.  If I pass, I'll have 9 or 10 years to sort that out.  However, if I don't pass the PANRE by dead-line next week, then I'll be among those, who've lost their job, career, livelihood...over an extremely high-stakes computer exam with 240 questions and will be at the mercy of NCCPA's grading system and how they decide to curve things.

 

Reference (among several)

http://news-center.aapa.org/recert/

 

The AAPA are continuing to meet to discuss plans of potentially either creating an entirely new re-certification process or making moves to pursue the NCCPA stopping high stakes re-cert testing. PLEASE, PLEASE, write the AAPA in support of this... unless you disagree.  We really NEED to evolve our re-cert process.  At least the AAPA is moving towards helping us with it.

[EMSGuy1982]

I agree that the "Blueprint" is not followed. I felt that question banks are more geared toward what the exam should be like. My recent experience though was with the PANCE as I just recently graduated. It was tough since my program beat into our brains to know the blueprint inside and out to only open the exam and see the obscure questions that are not related to the blueprint. I understand some of the questions "get tosssed out" as they use some as sample questions but being asked to answer a question about diseases/disorders I never learned in school and clinicals or are nowhere on the blueprint is unnerving. It's almost like they want you to feel like you lost part of your soul when you leave the testing center. It's also annoying to see folks taking other tests and getting their results before they leave. Is our profession the only one that has to wait for our tests to undergo some highly complex, super secret and magical grading system? I can only imagine how it feels for someone who has been doing this for 20+ years to have to take the PANRE. Stressful.

[probasestealer]

Agree with TWR.  There are some, who have lost their jobs and very livelihood due to not passing the PANRE. 

 

It's also a bit of a heated subject with the AAPA as they have been recently increasing their efforts to let the NCCPA know that the stakes are too high to hold one's very position, job, livelihood over 1 exam after potentially 10 years of a focused subspecially, which is the case with many PAs.  The AAPA presented to the NCCPA that the high-stakes exam/PANRE should not be.

 

I've learned of some, who've lost their jobs.  With EACH of these people, they had very solid jobs and careers and were doing very well.  They weren't these screw-ups.   

I also recently learned of a couple of PAs in Ortho, who I know, who failed the PANRE then took time off work, paid for travel for a course and then was re-contacted by the NCCPA to say they made a mistake and they actually had passed.  ...something about there were too many who failed so they had to re-calculate and re-adjust a curve, etc, etc.  These PAs were infuriated b/c of the heart-break, hardship, taking time from their job, intense stress when their jobs were suddenly on the line and spending a lot of money (their own) for travel and taking a course.  I would have been infuriated as well.  These are well-established PAs, with very solid jobs, and strong practitioners. 

 

Having taken the PANRE, myself, recently and failed, despite passing prior exams 1st try fine, I feel differently than I did when first graduated.  When one is established, found a niche, even excelled, yet, due to one exam, one's entire livelihood is at stake, it is extreme.  

This last PANRE, I noticed a difference in the exam vs prior.  For example, the ortho questions were obscure and absolutely were not for generalists.  I've worked in ortho for over a decade and I struggled with the ortho questions this last PANRE--not b/c I was overthinking as I always take a generalist approach to ortho questions on the PANRE.  Also, there was supposed to be 10% of ortho questions yet the exam had a very small amount of ortho questions.  The last PANRE 6 years ago, I got like a 98% correct in ortho section without studying even a lick of ortho before the test.  This past/recent PANRE, I got a 56% in ortho and 89% in pulmonology.  The ortho questions were bazarro and only a few ortho questions.  One of the ortho questions had a fracture pattern I had not even ever seen in over a decade of working full-time in ortho, including covering ER.  I am NOT at all confident the "blueprint" is followed as the NCCPA claims. 

 

I've been reading up on the stuff between AAPA and NCCPA and have begun to lose trust in the NCCPA and don't believe they're truly supportive of our profession.  Yet, I don't jump to conclusions about it.  Rather, I've read and also called and spoken with the AAPA and NCCPA recently.  From reading and talking with both bodies, I get a feeling of openness, transparency, solution-oriented, openness, and willingness to think out of the box with the AAPA and, conversely, closed-ness, stiff-necked, un-open, bull-s*** mumbo-jumbo, non-transparent, even arrogant feel from NCCPA.  ...again, when I read as well as conversations with both. 

 

Thankfully, the AAPA, and ARC-PA having had a strong meeting with NCCPA, there was impact and the NCCPA is retracting the huge changes that they were about to push upon us, which I do not feel was what the majority of PAs wanted, despite them saying they polled us in order to "support what we want."  I was at a conference about a year ago and there was a NCCPA staff, who spoke presenting these changes and, by far, the majority spoke against what this NCCPA person was saying was likely going to happen.  It will be interesting to see how things evolve. 

 

For the first time in my PA career, I'm deeply discouraged about this and will be very likely considering what else I might do, instead of being a PA.  If I pass, I'll have 9 or 10 years to sort that out.  However, if I don't pass the PANRE by dead-line next week, then I'll be among those, who've lost their job, career, livelihood...over an extremely high-stakes computer exam with 240 questions and will be at the mercy of NCCPA's grading system and how they decide to curve things.

 

Reference (among several)

http://news-center.aapa.org/recert/

Insightful. I certainly wish you luck on the upcoming PANRE.

 

I took the PANRE in April and agree with the obscure questions. I found myself scratching my head mainly on content that I'm most comfortable with, noting there were 2 correct or NO good answers. I specifically remember a few questions where I couldn't ascertain what they wanted (likely throw out questions).

 

I'm still in general practice with autonomy so I see a wide variety and am constantly looking things up. Not sure how you specialty guys/gals would even approach a general exam without a Blueprint.

[Joelseff]

I met a PA at the VA who was on her final try with the PANRE. I never found out if she passed. I remember her saying that the VA requires the C so she wouldn't be able to work if she can't maintain the C. I think though if you fail the PANRE all 2(or 4 depending on year taken) tries you have to retake the PANCE and have all the 6 attempts to do that. I could be wrong. But if you fail the test a possible Ten times ????... Maybe you shouldn't be practicing... (listen to me talking crap lol. I take the PANRE on wednesday????)

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

[Noreaster]

...I could be wrong. But if you fail the test a possible Ten times ... Maybe you shouldn't be practicing... (listen to me talking crap lol. I take the PANRE on wednesday)

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

 

I used to think that way and, maybe I still do, on some level, about the PANCE, but not about the PANRE.  With the PANCE, the test-taker is fresh out of a PA program and PA programs are hopefully prepping students well on all subject matter.  However, with the PANRE, the test-taker is sometimes somebody, who's been practicing in a specialty or subspecialty and potentially for many years.  The CEO of the NCCPA, herself, said there really isn't much difference at all between the PANCE and the PANRE, besides 60 less questions on the PANRE, which was highly discouraging to me to hear in all honesty.  I, for one, will not buy into the NCCPA's BS theory that the PANRE makes us "safer" that they are "protecting the public" by making us take this awful high stakes test.  I do not buy into that even on the atomic level.  It's sad that lay people, insurances, credentialing staff, hospital/office administration, buy into that...but I'm sure some do but sadder that any of us PAs buy into it.   

[overthehorizen]

I used to think that way and, maybe I still do, on some level, about the PANCE, but not about the PANRE.  With the PANCE, the test-taker is fresh out of a PA program and PA programs are hopefully prepping students well on all subject matter.  However, with the PANRE, the test-taker is sometimes somebody, who's been practicing in a specialty or subspecialty and potentially for many years.  The CEO of the NCCPA, herself, said there really isn't much difference at all between the PANCE and the PANRE, besides 60 less questions on the PANRE, which was highly discouraging to me to hear in all honesty.  I, for one, will not buy into the NCCPA's BS theory that the PANRE makes us "safer" that they are "protecting the public" by making us take this awful high stakes test.  I do not buy into that even on the atomic level.  I'm sad that lay people, insurances, credentialing staff, hospital/office administration, the public, buy into that...but they sure do.

 

If the public is buying the idea that retesting makes them safe then why is there no outrage that NPs have 23 state independent practice without retesting. The PANRE is a money making scam. Morton Rizzo is the modern day version of the tin man.