Help me pick a job - new grad UC

[Z PA-C]

OPTION 1
-$55/hr + $5K SIGN ON BONUS, 13 hr shifts with average of 12-13 shifts per month (they said the minimum is 72 shifts in 6 months) [shifts 9am-10pm]
-13% of salary contributed by the employer into 403B; 20% vested each year of employment. 100% vested after 5 years
-80 hours of paid sick time
-NO PTO :(
-Health plan for employee + dependents w/ medical, dental, and vision [$40/month individual or $260/month family]
-Malpractice fully covered: Occurrence policy (so no tail required)
-Employer paid licenses, fees, dea, boards, credentialing etc (but comes out of CME allowance)
-$4000 CME!

OPTION 2
-$60/hr, no sign on bonus, 12 hr shifts with average of 3 shifts/week [shifts 9am-9pm]
-Annual 5K bonus every Dec 15. This would start 12/15/17
-100% 401k match up to 3% gross salary
-no sick days
-80 hours of PTO, add 40 hours each year of employment
-Health insurance: Employer pays 70%/ Employee pays 30%. 100% dental and vision covered by employer
-Malpractice fully covered: claims made w/ tail coverage
-1200 CME, no reimbursement for license, fees etc :(


Both sites are great learning environments. would not be a solo provider at either site. Both are straight hourly pay no OT or differentials and I can pick up extra shifts if desired

I really like both places so would love an outside perspective. Thank you in advance!

[anewconvert]

The offers pay roughly the same in the first year, about $108,000 after the sign on bonus in the first job.

 

Is that 13% every year after 5 years or is it a one time contribution?? Because if it is then first offer puts a minimum of $13,000 of free money into retirement before you contribute a penny! That's insanity. If you work more than the bare minimum of shifts per year that number goes up, and if you throw any money at it that's even bigger... Your first year would be a free contribution equivalent to the matched contribution of the second offer. The second job maxes out at rough $3200 contribution IF you donate $3200. Go to a retirement calculator and do the math on the difference between the two retirement offers if you work for 10 years with them and retire at 65. If I am understanding the offer correctly then after 5 years have to contribute nearly $10,000 of your income to your retirement before you matched what the first offer is giving you with no contribution on your behalf.

 

Depending on how the retirement is set up that first offer is pretty good

[Z PA-C]

The offers pay roughly the same in the first year, about $108,000 after the sign on bonus in the first job.

 

Is that 13% every year after 5 years or is it a one time contribution?? Because if it is then first offer puts a minimum of $13,000 of free money into retirement before you contribute a penny! That's insanity. If you work more than the bare minimum of shifts per year that number goes up, and if you throw any money at it that's even bigger... Your first year would be a free contribution equivalent to the matched contribution of the second offer. The second job maxes out at rough $3200 contribution IF you donate $3200. Go to a retirement calculator and do the math on the difference between the two retirement offers if you work for 10 years with them and retire at 65. If I am understanding the offer correctly then after 5 years have to contribute nearly $10,000 of your income to your retirement before you matched what the first offer is giving you with no contribution on your behalf.

 

Depending on how the retirement is set up that first offer is pretty good

For the first offer, every year the employer puts 13% of the gross salary into retirement. You get 20% of this money if you stay one year, 40% if you stay two years, etc....if you stay for 5 years you get 100% of the pot.

 

Obviously this is a much better retirement set up compared to Job 2 but Job 2 has the yearly 5K bonus and 2 weeks PTO (increasing one week every year of employment) which I can cash out

[bob_inski]

Coming from two years of urgent care myself. 

 

Both are great offers for a new grad, you seem to have covered all the important areas and everything is there. 

My question is how many extra shifts will be available to pick up and would you work an extra 1-2 shifts a week if you could? 

My calculated base pay for option one is 103k, for option 2 117k including 5k bonus each December. 

Benies are likely much better with option one if you have a family that could be a deal maker. Most UC's have terrible insurance plans. My counterpart has family of four children and had to get his own policy instead of the one provided and still pays 800-1000/mo. 

option two allows you to add 40 hrs of pto each year, awesome. We are stuck with whatever we choose at sign on between 40-120/yr. 

Though 4k cme is amazing, I really don't think you need that. I have 1500 each year and it is sufficient, including licensing fees, dea, etc. 

 

If I were you, my biggest question would come down to which place you can pick up extra shifts if you want. I average 50 hrs a week in UC and have made >150k each year since graduation. Granted we get 11/2x anything over 40hrs, production bonus, and on call pay. 

 

Either way you can't go wrong! solid offers. 

 

[Z PA-C]

Coming from two years of urgent care myself. 

 

Both are great offers for a new grad, you seem to have covered all the important areas and everything is there. 

My question is how many extra shifts will be available to pick up and would you work an extra 1-2 shifts a week if you could? 

My calculated base pay for option one is 103k, for option 2 117k including 5k bonus each December. 

Benies are likely much better with option one if you have a family that could be a deal maker. Most UC's have terrible insurance plans. My counterpart has family of four children and had to get his own policy instead of the one provided and still pays 800-1000/mo. 

option two allows you to add 40 hrs of pto each year, awesome. We are stuck with whatever we choose at sign on between 40-120/yr. 

Though 4k cme is amazing, I really don't think you need that. I have 1500 each year and it is sufficient, including licensing fees, dea, etc. 

 

If I were you, my biggest question would come down to which place you can pick up extra shifts if you want. I average 50 hrs a week in UC and have made >150k each year since graduation. Granted we get 11/2x anything over 40hrs, production bonus, and on call pay. 

 

Either way you can't go wrong! solid offers. 

Thanks for your feedback Bob. I don't have a family currently. I'm getting married next year so that will change down the line but my spouse also has great insurance benefits through his employer.

 

The tough part is both UC's have plenty of shifts to go around if I want to pick up more. They are two very busy "full scope" Urgent Cares with IV's, on site x-rays, and multiple providers at any one time. Neither one staffs enough full time providers to fill all shifts so that people who want to pick up more can do so. they fill in with per diem folks for months they are short.

 

So basically I can work as little or as much as I want.

[bob_inski]

Thanks for your feedback Bob. I don't have a family currently. I'm getting married next year so that will change down the line but my spouse also has great insurance benefits through his employer.

 

The tough part is both UC's have plenty of shifts to go around if I want to pick up more. They are two very busy "full scope" Urgent Cares with IV's, on site x-rays, and multiple providers at any one time. Neither one staffs enough full time providers to fill all shifts so that people who want to pick up more can do so. they fill in with per diem folks for months they are short.

 

So basically I can work as little or as much as I want.

Ok so if can pick up extra shifts at both, say my goal is 150/yr. that would take 46 extra 12 hr shifts at option 2, from a base of 117k vs 56 extra 13 hr shifts from option one (base 108 with your sign on bonus) which relates to an extra 130 hrs of work per year, or a little over 3 weeks of extra work to make the same amount. (Sorry i'm a huge number guy) Try reading the wealthy physician if you really want to talk numbers with me. 

 

put numbers and money aside, if you are female and looking to have children, maybe work part time, option two with a building PTO bank and 3 12s is much easier to swallow than 13 hr shifts and 80hrs sick time/yr 

[anewconvert]

Ok so if can pick up extra shifts at both, say my goal is 150/yr. that would take 46 extra 12 hr shifts at option 2, from a base of 117k vs 56 extra 13 hr shifts from option one (base 108 with your sign on bonus) which relates to an extra 130 hrs of work per year, or a little over 3 weeks of extra work to make the same amount. (Sorry i'm a huge number guy) Try reading the wealthy physician if you really want to talk numbers with me. 

 

put numbers and money aside, if you are female and looking to have children, maybe work part time, option two with a building PTO bank and 3 12s is much easier to swallow than 13 hr shifts and 80hrs sick time/yr

 

But you can't take the numbers of either option without the retirement benefits. Option one at $150k a year salary pays $19,500 in tax free income into retirement. Option two pays $4500 if you contribute $4500 on your own. That's 250 extra hours of work put into your retirement to match the donation made by option one without ANY employee contribution. Hour for hour there is no way option two pays the same as option one because of the retirement. And that is before 40 years of compounding interest.

 

If the OP is 30 years old works for 10 years with this company and contributes nothing to the account except what the employer contributes, at a base salary of $100,000 and then quits and NEVER CONTRIBUTES AGAIN to the account it will be worth $452,000 at retirement. Same scenario with the second offer putting in the bare minimum to get a full match comes out to $290,000 at age 65....

 

 

The first offer, even though shorter on up front cash, is the better offer monetarily over the OPs lifetime. There may be other reasons why it's not as good, but getting 13% of your annual salary just given to you retirement account is insane

[bob_inski]

But you can't take the numbers of either option without the retirement benefits. Option one at $150k a year salary pays $19,500 in tax free income into retirement. Option two pays $4500 if you contribute $4500 on your own. That's 250 extra hours of work put into your retirement to match the donation made by option one without ANY employee contribution. Hour for hour there is no way option two pays the same as option one because of the retirement. And that is before 40 years of compounding interest.

 

If the OP is 30 years old works for 10 years with this company and contributes nothing to the account except what the employer contributes, at a base salary of $100,000 and then quits and NEVER CONTRIBUTES AGAIN to the account it will be worth $452,000 at retirement. Same scenario with the second offer putting in the bare minimum to get a full match comes out to $290,000 at age 65....

 

 

The first offer, even though shorter on up front cash, is the better offer monetarily over the OPs lifetime. There may be other reasons why it's not as good, but getting 13% of your annual salary just given to you retirement account is insane

Anewconvert- I agree with you and you make a valid point, that is a tremendous contribution by the employer. I am not an expert on 403b's. I am concerned with this statement and how it may affect her hourly rate. To me it makes it sound like if she wanted to contribute more, they would reduce her hourly rate and if she wanted to contribute less, they would raise her hourly rate. This may be all related to the % deferred. If she can stay as you discussed above, 13% at 55/hr I would agree with you that this is a more retirement friendly option. Please inform me if I am wrong about the below information on 403b. 

How a 403(b) Works

Employees enroll and participate through their employer. Contributions to a 403(b) are made on a pre-tax basis through a Salary Reduction Agreement. This is an arrangement where the participating employee agrees to take a reduction in salary. The amount by which the salary is reduced is directed to investments offered through the employer and selected by the employee. These contributions are called elective deferrals and are excluded from the employee's taxable income. Contributions grow tax-deferred until the time of retirement, when withdrawals are taxed as ordinary income. See Accessing 403(b) Savings and Making Other Changes to Your 403(b) for information on withdrawing 403(b) money.

[Z PA-C]

The way I look at it hourly it ends up being pretty much the same when you factor in retirement right?

 

55x1.13=62.15/hr

60x1.03=61.8/hr

For the second offer I would just have to contribute more to 401k than the 3% to help with my tax burden.

 

Job 2 did seem more open to annual raises compared to Job 1. Job 1 probably wouldn't get a raise until year 2 or 3

[anewconvert]

Anewconvert- I agree with you and you make a valid point, that is a tremendous contribution by the employer. I am not an expert on 403b's. I am concerned with this statement and how it may affect her hourly rate. To me it makes it sound like if she wanted to contribute more, they would reduce her hourly rate and if she wanted to contribute less, they would raise her hourly rate. This may be all related to the % deferred. If she can stay as you discussed above, 13% at 55/hr I would agree with you that this is a more retirement friendly option. Please inform me if I am wrong about the below information on 403b. 

 

How a 403(b) Works

Employees enroll and participate through their employer. Contributions to a 403(b) are made on a pre-tax basis through a Salary Reduction Agreement. This is an arrangement where the participating employee agrees to take a reduction in salary. The amount by which the salary is reduced is directed to investments offered through the employer and selected by the employee. These contributions are called elective deferrals and are excluded from the employee's taxable income. Contributions grow tax-deferred until the time of retirement, when withdrawals are taxed as ordinary income. See Accessing 403(b) Savings and Making Other Changes to Your 403(b) for information on withdrawing 403(b) money.

As I understand that all that refers to is contributions made by the employee are structured as an agreement between the employee and employer to reduce the employees salary in exchange for the employer purchasing investments through the 403b program. It's a legalese way of saying "this was never wages so it is not counted as income so you can't use this money in calculating income tax obligations".

 

So the OP makes $103,000 a year next year but decides to contribute $5000 to the retirement fund in addition to the contribution the employer already makes. Instead of their income being reported to the IRS as $103,000 of which $5000 was contributed to a retirement fund it is reported as $98,000 and the $5000 contribution was used to purchase investments through the 403b plan in the name of the OP.

 

Functionally the difference between a 401(k) and 403(b) is that the former is a retirement vehicle for for-profit companies that can use profit sharing agreements as contribution vehicles whereas the latter is for non-profits only, can't use profit sharing (because non-profit.. So no profit to share) and has slightly limited investment options while providing a less expensive program due to reduced regulatory compliance costs to the employer and provider of the 403(b) (usually an insurance company vs a mutual fund)

[MT2PA]

^^ Yep that.  It's pretax so the more you contribute, the less pay you take home (hence, pay reduction).  Basically they just want you to know that whatever amount you contribute affects your take home pay.  As an employee, operating my 403b vs my 401k was identical (except yes, different investment options).

[bob_inski]

So as a not for profit, she could potentially benefit from PSLF as well, correct?

[Z PA-C]

No student loans here.

 

But from what I understand after 20 years you end up paying back your entire loan anyway with income based repayment especially around this salary range.

[anewconvert]

No student loans here.

But from what I understand after 20 years you end up paying back your entire loan anyway with income based repayment especially around this salary range.

You do, easily, but if you 10 year income driven minimum payment at a non-profit in an underserved area they forgive your remaining balance without any tax implications. The cute thing about the 20 year repayment forgiveness is that your forgiveness is a taxable item on your income that year. Which means if you make enough money you may end up having a surprisingly large sum due to the IRS.

[treejay]

NO PTO = NO WAY !  That is absurd.