Moderator True Anomaly Posted July 19, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 19, 2016 So the latest volley has been thrown by AAPA in this certification battle with the NCCPA: ,,"AAPA will take the next steps toward establishing a new certifying organization by gathering more information and developing the necessary documents." https://www.aapa.org/twocolumn.aspx?id=6442451411 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick87 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 So the latest volley has been thrown by AAPA in this certification battle with the NCCPA: ,,"AAPA will take the next steps toward establishing a new certifying organization by gathering more information and developing the necessary documents." https://www.aapa.org/twocolumn.aspx?id=6442451411 It sounds like the AAPA is just trying to take power away from the NCCPA. We all know that the AAPA as a whole rarely actively fights for anything. Maybe they should focus more on PAs getting their asses kicked by NPs, before fighting another PA organization. And why post this message? Don't threaten. Just do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGoLong Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 It's likely about consensus-building. They need to mobilize members to make it happen. Seeing something proactive is great. Perhaps it won't be their only initiative. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted July 19, 2016 Administrator Share Posted July 19, 2016 Perhaps it won't be their only initiative. It's a very public "... or else" to the NCCPA. The end goal is clearly to get the NCCPA to behave themselves and stop jerking PAs around (as the AAPA sees it), not to set up a second certifying body. I've seen things like this backfire. My city tried to set up its own fire department when the county fire department already provided good service under contract and had a lot of goodwill. The rank and file voters removed the city council members behind the initiative, and the rest sheepishly voted to annex the city into the county fire department. I don't see the NCCPA having that level of grassroots goodwill, but there is also far less of a clear way for the constituents to "vote" and end the spat between organizations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Interesting. I am not opposed to specialty testing as this reflect the reality of PAs going into specialties but requiring "take home exams" in addition to the ten year recert exam is silly. Requiring a recertification exam every ten years is similarly silly. MOC need to be less burdensome but the NCCPA seems to be adding numerous silly requirements and hoops to go through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAAdmission Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 If the AAPA can tame the NCCPA down a little bit, more power to them. They are riding the wave of hate the AMA is throwing at the doc recert process. Good to see the AAPA finally grew some stones. If they can step NCCPA back, next they should go after ARC-PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted July 19, 2016 Administrator Share Posted July 19, 2016 If they can step NCCPA back, next they should go after ARC-PA. For allowing a rampant, unbridled increase in the number of programs, I presume? If so, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check 2 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 As the old adage goes--- Too many chiefs, not enough Indians..... We need to go back to Kindergarten and make everyone sit in a circle and wait their turn to talk and come up with a frickin plan to forward our profession, make recertification appropriate and attainable and stop opening programs with subpar faculties and no preceptor sites. We are pretty clear on what the problems are - no need to hire a big dollar consultant or anything like that. Let's just fix the problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted July 19, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 19, 2016 Maybe, just maybe AAPA has heard that the masses of PAs hate the PI crap... Maybe just maybe the AAPA has gotten the message that they REPRESENT US and need to do what their membership wants, not what some professional bureaucrat wants.... maybe it is a good thing to get NCCPA to wake up... A question, does AAPA have any power or authority to undertake such an task, can they in any way strip NCCPA or it's power?? Is this it the nuclear option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator True Anomaly Posted July 19, 2016 Author Moderator Share Posted July 19, 2016 Maybe, just maybe AAPA has heard that the masses of PAs hate the PI crap... Maybe just maybe the AAPA has gotten the message that they REPRESENT US and need to do what their membership wants, not what some professional bureaucrat wants.... maybe it is a good thing to get NCCPA to wake up... A question, does AAPA have any power or authority to undertake such an task, can they in any way strip NCCPA or it's power?? Is this it the nuclear option? I consider this a nuclear option, in the sense that there's never been an alternate certification process for PAs. And if AAPA does go through with this, it will change state laws and hospital credentialing for all PAs- because now which test would be accepted to consider a PA as "certified"? In regards to "power and authority", the AAPA can do what it feels is necessary within their own organization- so yes, they have the power to create some other certification test. But they have absolutely no power over the NCCPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceBanner Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 It's a bluff. The only thing the AAPA collectively cares about is saving their own face and remaining the marquee PA professional organization. If the NCCPA passes this the AAPA loses some relevancy. Because again---what do they do?? Charge outrageous dues and put out a few mediocre publications and a national conference. Beyond that, they have no legal authority to "override" the NCCPA and their re-cert efforts, and they would need a huge consensus and support from the AMA and other collateral organizations to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyJ Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 The AAPA needs to focus on what it should be doing to help our profession and be really damn good at that first. You don't add a huge undertaking like this when you already have problems. They should have our best interest at the forefront at all times. The AAPA, NCCPA, and all PAs should be working together toward our commons goals. Why would adding another certification model be of any benefit right now? I bet the AAPA would be coming to us for $$ funding for this. We can use that funding in other places right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check 2 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I vote again to be allowed to take the AAFP boards minus OB for being a long term family practice PA. Obviously this won't work for all PAs but we could start being certified under the board that correlates with our primary employment. Skip AAPA and NCCPA if they cannot cooperate or actually make rational decisions or involve REAL PAs in the trenches. The heads of AAPA and NCCPA need to be put in a room with a mediator and told to put on the big girl panties and not come out until they agree to represent the profession and not their pocketbooks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillycibin Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 I'm all for the AAPA stepping in. They at least answer to PAs to some extent. The NCCPA is self appointed and really over stepped themselves and now they may pay for it. I'm all for getting rid of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMPA Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 why are we as a profession monopolized by the nccpa? there is no reason why there cannot be multiple choices for certification. i now have more respect for AAPA. As a profession we are under recognized, over burdened with testing compared to MD/PA, and more than qualified. I am all for one and done with certification along with required yearly CME. Why doesn't the nccpa just have cme that is sufficient enough to prove continued competence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Now that the topic of certification is open it would make more sense for any certification to be part of the existing MD/DO certification system and not separate and distinct. The AAFP could offer a generalist exam and then the various physician specialty groups can offer their own CAQ/subspecialty exams. This would help integrate PAs even further into the existing medical education and certification system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dharmaPA Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Was on the NCCPA site, could not identify - when do they propose initiating such changes? At what cost to PA's? Just within the last 12 months, NCCPA has revamped the recert requirements. Overall, how does this latest proposal serve the PA profession? Has there been some gross lack or apparent need within the medical community that points to the PA's NOT fulfilling professionally, thus this remedy's determined (by the NCCPA, not PA's themselves) is to --- test PA's more? Which in reality, is not a comprehensive reflection of clinical competency nor success with patients relationally? I'm for uniformity with the other medical professionals - ( MD/NP ) re: licensing and certification mandates. If the AAPA follows through, it could be an opportunity for PA's to actively craft the process to match what truly works for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taotaox1 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Good for the AAPA imo. The NCCPA was obviously trying to railroad this. Their rigged questionnaire was poof enough of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poetsiren Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Good for the AAPA imo. The NCCPA was obviously trying to railroad this. Their rigged questionnaire was poof enough of that. I was SOO happy when the AAPA released the 17-slide powerpoint "presentation" given by the NCCPA to the HOD meeting in May - the thing was FLUFF!! No substance except maybe the last 2 slides. Everything else was all the same things they've been telling us - with no specified number of take-home exams, and how they have PA interests at heart, etc..... (See the link here if you didn't catch the ppt....http://news-center.aapa.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/05/NCCPA-Presentation-to-HOD-May-2016.pdf) And then their formal letter to the HOD that went along with it.....(I'll get to that in a moment.) When I first read the May 13 letter from NCCPA to the AAPA (the NCCPA response after the AAPA and PAs across the US initially started to question HOW the NCCPA got their info), I read the NCCPA basically, at its core, was telling the AAPA to "stick it" and calling the AAPA inferior at data collection.... Next move was the AAPA HOD meeting..... Then the letter on May 15 that went along with that powerpoint to the AAPA HOD was like a backhanded "OH, so sorry! WE LOVE PA's! See?! We're PA's, too! UNPAID by the NCCPA!", with the message tacked on at the VERY tail end that sounds like they are pleading the AAPA to not begin any court proceedings because they "are deeply committed to this profession and its patients" and further promoting PAs, and basically saying we needed to imagine what it would do to the profession if the NCCPA wasn't in on it...... (From their closing statement, "What price might the profession ultimately pay...") Gee.... sounds to me like the NCCPA stuck its great big boots in its mouth...bit off more than it could chew.... and then tried to play patty cake with the HOD to make nice. Don't get me wrong, I'm a new PA, and I can only imagine that the NCCPA may have done well in helping us certify in the past because it was never harder than for those PAs who fought at the start, but that NCCPA recertification plan was just too much! I hope that PAs continue to work together to promote our profession even after all this mess - we need to support our strengths as clinicians. And, good heavens..... I MUST be passionate about my profession, because I wouldn't dare let that whole boot-to-patty-cake comment slip from my lips for anything else.... lmao! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db_pavnp Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 I noticed several slides that suggest "clear evidence in literature" and nothing is cited and no references are provided. Businesses are fantastic at cherry picking "clear evidence" that supports their existence. It strikes me as a **beyond monumental task** to attempt to manage 12 specialty exams in one organization. Some of these exams will be pure garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted July 23, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 23, 2016 The thing that pisses me off the most - I have been emailing NCCPA since the CAQ came out about the fact one of the single biggest specialities that PAs work in is primary care / IM AND YET they still do not have a CAQ for it. Sorry, saying PA school prepares you for PCP is just stupid and uneducated (and in essesence says that the doc's that went to 4+3=7 years of training could have done it in 2 by being a PA. They always answered my emails with polite - we will look into it - but instead they roll out CAQ's for smaller and smaller specialties..... Talk about out of touch with the PAs in the trenches...... Then as the Doc's legal fought, and apparently WON the arguments against MOC the NCCPA just buries it head. Really, when you copy someonelse and then the someone else gets proven WRONG don't you think it would be good to learn from them.... As for the NCCPA emailing that made the AAPA look bad - and actually had lies in it about proof that MOC and Exams provide better patient outcomes - well that just floored me. Just confabulation of a demented agency.... And one that I beleive needs a top to bottom purging - similar to what happened to AAPA when PAFT and general membership realized they had lost themselves...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksmith10 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 I'm surprised to see so many on here agreeing with the AAPA on this. What was so bad about the potential changes being discussed? The NCCPA is only talking about ideas at this point, and is open to change. Unlike the AAPA, at least they surveyed the opinions of PAs. The changes being considered wouldn't be implemented for 5-7 years. The CME requirements would change, too, as NCCPA has acknowledged that this is the big issue for a lot of people who are undecided about the proposed model and unhappy with the current one. They have also acknowledged that the PI stuff hasn't gone as expected and they intended for more options to be available by now. I think it's telling that the AAPA hasn't even so much as conducted a poll to see how many people agree with the actions they've taken since this all started. They seem to simply be using this as an opportunity to "overthrow" the NCCPA and get rid of recertification altogether; to me, the idea of having multiple certifying bodies and less cohesion across the board is NP territory. The administrators and physicians I've worked with have always seemed to have more respect for the process (and the credentials) because they can actually identify one in the first place and it's the same for everyone. I'm not sure anybody understands the situation with NPs -- some seem to take a board exam of sorts, some don't; there are various credentials with nobody being sure what they mean or how one obtains them (and maintains them). I recently saw a CV that had been submitted by an NP to my employer and it featured: "JANE DOE, NP-C" at the top. I thought to myself, "huh?" I'd never seen that one before. Regardless of how you feel about whether or not we should be retested at all, the proposed model appears to be less stressful and less time-consuming. Being able to take a recertification exam that is specific to your area of practice addresses the complaint we've heard from so many PAs for so many years. The AAPA could choose to be part of a nuanced debate over the specifics of the model being proposed, but that's not what they've done at any point. It's been all about throwing the baby out with the bathwater from the beginning. I've allowed my AAPA membership to lapse since this began and have no intention of ever giving them another dollar of my money. They do not represent me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGoLong Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 You raise some good points, ksmith 10. I think what has people upset includes the following: - the certification process was just changed recently (the new 10 year cycle, the different kinds of CME, CAQH testing, etc) - the possible "Balkanization" of the profession into multiple specialties a la NP. This may impact the ability to change fields during a PA career - having NCCPA design specialty exams, rather than trying to work with the specialty organizations. I'm in cardio and wonder why not an ACC-generated exam. - the addition of take-home tests in addition to the proctored PANCE exam - a lack of recognition that we compete for jobs against a profession that has NO recertification exams. And THEY are the ones getting autonomy. - the relative dismissal of negative survey comments (that's how I felt about mine) In the end, I doubt that AAPA will actually start a separate certification process, but the last time the AAPA complained in our behalf, all they got for their trouble was a letter from the NCCPA's lawyers. Until these two organizations agree to sit down and work together for the good of our profession, the AAPA's threat may be all they have for ammunition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoIMCardsPA Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 This is an outrageous move by AAPA. How does it possibly benefit our profession to create multiple certification organizations? Are the NCCPA proposed changes really so substantively bad that we need to make a humiliating public spectacle of our profession by creating a competing certification board? Of course this is most likely a bluff by AAPA but reflects poorly on PAs as a profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michigander Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Ventana and UGoLong have great points. I'm relatively new as a PA, just two years out. I remember reading about PANRE testing problems several years ago and I'm not sure I trust the NCCPA to develop a pretty large number of specialty tests that would be valid. My specialty (geriatrics) would not be represented so I would have to pick some kind of adult medicine. To me, that is the same as forcing a pediatrician to take a general medicine test. I emailed NCCPA with my (negative) comments about the proposed changes and my experience with PI-CME. They replied that they were "working on improvements to the PI-CME offerings" and completely ignored everything I said about the proposed changes. Apparently that's why they think they have support among PAs. Nurse practitioners have a bizarre number of credentials (ACNP-BC, ANP-BC, PMHNP-BC, AGPCNP-BC...) and I think two different credentialing bodies. I would not want to duplicate this mish-mosh alphabet soup, I like our standardization of PA-C but the MD/DO model is moving away from MOC and onerous CMEs. NCCPA seems to want to move towards the worst of both MOC and the NP models. I completely support the AAPA with this move and am grateful for their efforts. It's the same movement as the one taking place on behalf of physicians against their board exams (which are only every 10 years and not the proposed every 2 years for us) and MOC requirements. It's healthcare providers starting to stand up and say "enough" so we can take care of patients instead of following the orders of boards made up of non-practicing PAs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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