Jump to content

Grievances with PA program. Help!


Recommended Posts

So my program has some issues that myself and the vast majority, if not all students, are concerned about.  But we're not sure if these problems are "normal"/to be expected, or if it's grounds for reporting them.  Hopefully some of you can give some insight?

 

1. We have not received (at least) 3 lectures this semester and are told we are responsible for learning the material on our own.  The lectures and lab were planned, but cancelled.  We see this as an issue because we are paying tuition to be taught these things and clearly haven't received the education.  We consistently have this problem with lectures that are not adequately taught.

 

2. Going along with the above, lecturers often do not follow the objectives in our program so again material isn't being covered.  There was one time that a permanent faculty member retaught a class due to this problem, but there has been no help since then.  There seems to be a lack of communication between the guest/adjunct lecturers and the permanent faculty which results in the guest lecturer not teaching the correct information.  We're also concerned about the hiring process of the guest lecturers since many of them are not adequate.  There is a lack of oversight of guests lecturers to the point that permanent faculty are not aware of what they're teaching unless informed by students.

What are the thoughts of your faculty?

 

3. Support from faculty seems to be lacking, or exists at a bare minimum.  Some are there to listen which is helpful, but their responses are often empty promises and only serve to placate students for a time.  Do other programs experience this?  Advisors do not appear to help.

 

4. We have very limited hands-on experience other than about 4 standardized patient tests we've had.  We're concerned our skills and interaction with patients could be affected as a result. How much experience do other programs have?

 

5. Communication overall between faculty and students is lacking.  It takes days to get a response, and at other times there is absolutely no response at all; emails are ignored.  This has been a major issue with all current classes of PA students.

 

6. There are often schedule changes and we are expected to abide by those changes and attend class no matter what.  Though we are told that we need to keep any weekday available from 8am-5pm, we still have class outside of those times.  This is frustrating because there is no consideration for our time as students, but we are expected to adhere to whatever the faculty wants to do, sometimes at a whim.  It's frustrating because it shows a lack of consideration and respect for our time and as adults.

 

7. While there are often schedule changes and cancellations to our lectures, we are chastised if we are absent or miss a class.  The hypocrisy is clearly a problem.  In addition, some students will inform faculty if other students are not present.  Do these things occur in your programs?

 

8. There seems to be a overall lack of organization, again with schedules, but with lectures being uploaded in a timely fashion.  The guest lecturers also do not have access to them unless they've been uploaded to blackboard since that is the responsibility of the administration.  This results in class being started late by 15-30 minutes.

 

Again, I'm trying to find out if these are problems throughout PA programs and something we just need to deal with.  Or is this specific to mine and should we press for things to change and receive more equality?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You aren't alone.

 

My program seems to have lot of faculty turnover ... and is understaffed by at least 2 FTEs ... except for the entrenched ... who either

A) haven't bothered to update their lecture material in 10 years nor maintained a license to practice, or

B) tell you to learn it on your own and tell you 'that is "adult" learning'. (Caveat - there is some merit to this - this is a graduate degree program for professionals - it's not going to be spoon fed to you as if in high school).

 

Guest lecturerers are great for some 'real world' knowledge, but you are correct, they often aren't connected with what you'll be tested over - in your program or on the PANCE (or on the PANRE, if you follow what's going on with recertification).

FWIW, if we don't have a guest lecturer's slides, one of our class members gets it from them before they start and emails it to everyone or posts it to our FB group immediately - it may or may not get to Blackboard anytime soon - at least we'll have it to take notes on during the lecture (our guests often have their own lecture).

 

If you protest insufficient notice for 'mandatory' attendance outside of the published 8-5 schedule, you will be censured for unprofessionalism ... And it's noted in your records.

 

Faculty are unapologetic if they are unprofessionally late ... or absent without notice.

 

And yes, we have snitches in our peers ... It's like being in grade school.

 

I suspect some relationship to where programs are "ranked" (even though the published rankings are limited and subjective). Our program is below the 50th%. Yours?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope, not normal. Going to one of the older programs in existance, top 10 by US News. None of these issues. Exams are off of questions weitten by presenters, are off the objectives and presenters are subject matter experts. No classes outside of whats scheduled. Really, none of your concerns.

 

Your concerns are valid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

Wow.  I wouldn't put up with any of it.  I would work to identify behavioral expectations for faculty, and hold them to those.  You students need to get together and elect the professional, most-level-headed students to address these issues calmly and coolly with the program administration.  Mine set up that sort of outlet from the outset, asks for feedback for every lecture/guest lecture... and PA school was hard enough to endure with that sort of good, open communication.  I can't imagine how frustrating that must be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some of this is normal and some is excessive.  Getting a lecture posted to blackboard the night before/morning of a lecture?  Normal.  They make changes, it happens.  Guest lecturers not sharing their slides?  Happens.

 

Being 'owned' by the PA program 8-5 M-F - normal. We have class outside these times - that's not unusual but it is scheduled far in advance and is not fair game for adding classes last minute.  Guest lecturers not always following the objectives?  Not abnormal (though our faculty will be clear about where test questions are coming from - lecturer or objectives - often in that situation the lecturers are the ones creating the possible exam questions and it's less of an issue).  The amount of hands-on patient time - well that's something you should have clarified during interview time.  It's pretty common not to see patients the first year except for standardized patients or volunteer opportunities.  Varies completely from program to program....I'd say that should be pretty low on your list, considering.

 

The lack of organization or faulting you if they change the schedule?  Not normal. And WTH kind of classmates do you have that are TATTLETALES?!  I'm sorry, but if it doesn't affect person A that person B is absent, person A doesn't have a dog in the fight.  That's just petty.  

 

Are they technically doing anything wrong that is considered 'reportable'?  Not necessarily.  Your first step needs to be bringing these concerns to the program itself and if they ignore it, to your school.  You are a long way from 'reporting' them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have an interesting and not totally uncommon (except perhaps in degree) predicament. The real question is what do you do about it.

 

As a practical matter, if you want to be a PA, you will almost certainly need to graduate from the program you are currently attending. If you would apply elsewhere and get an interview, you would likely get tagged as a potential problem child, and there are already too many bright and optimistic applicants already for the schools to choose among..

 

Your list of complaints does come across as a bit of a laundry list. As Teddy Roosevelt is supposed to have said, “Whining is complaining without proposing a solution.” If it were me (and it isn’t), I would have a student-only class meeting and do just that: jointly come up with sensible, practical solutions to just the critical problems. You could also get the class to stop narc-ing on each other and recognize that you need to get through this together.

 

I would recommend that your list not include having to take classes off of your promised hours. Welcome to being a PA; you work when there is work to be done. If you’re rounding in the hospital, it’s quitting time, and there is a new stat consult, guess what?

 

I wouldn’t try to solve everything, nor try to get them to redesign their whole program. It is the program that, for better or worse, all of your chose to go to. Just come up with some sensible ways to make it better than it is. Don't challenge the program director; be on his or her side and make their garden a little greener.

 

Good luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So my program has some issues that myself and the vast majority, if not all students, are concerned about.  But we're not sure if these problems are "normal"/to be expected, or if it's grounds for reporting them.  Hopefully some of you can give some insight?

 

1. We have not received (at least) 3 lectures this semester and are told we are responsible for learning the material on our own.  The lectures and lab were planned, but cancelled.  We see this as an issue because we are paying tuition to be taught these things and clearly haven't received the education.  We consistently have this problem with lectures that are not adequately taught.

 

2. Going along with the above, lecturers often do not follow the objectives in our program so again material isn't being covered.  There was one time that a permanent faculty member retaught a class due to this problem, but there has been no help since then.  There seems to be a lack of communication between the guest/adjunct lecturers and the permanent faculty which results in the guest lecturer not teaching the correct information.  We're also concerned about the hiring process of the guest lecturers since many of them are not adequate.  There is a lack of oversight of guests lecturers to the point that permanent faculty are not aware of what they're teaching unless informed by students.

What are the thoughts of your faculty?

 

3. Support from faculty seems to be lacking, or exists at a bare minimum.  Some are there to listen which is helpful, but their responses are often empty promises and only serve to placate students for a time.  Do other programs experience this?  Advisors do not appear to help.

 

4. We have very limited hands-on experience other than about 4 standardized patient tests we've had.  We're concerned our skills and interaction with patients could be affected as a result. How much experience do other programs have?

 

5. Communication overall between faculty and students is lacking.  It takes days to get a response, and at other times there is absolutely no response at all; emails are ignored.  This has been a major issue with all current classes of PA students.

 

6. There are often schedule changes and we are expected to abide by those changes and attend class no matter what.  Though we are told that we need to keep any weekday available from 8am-5pm, we still have class outside of those times.  This is frustrating because there is no consideration for our time as students, but we are expected to adhere to whatever the faculty wants to do, sometimes at a whim.  It's frustrating because it shows a lack of consideration and respect for our time and as adults.

 

7. While there are often schedule changes and cancellations to our lectures, we are chastised if we are absent or miss a class.  The hypocrisy is clearly a problem.  In addition, some students will inform faculty if other students are not present.  Do these things occur in your programs?

 

8. There seems to be a overall lack of organization, again with schedules, but with lectures being uploaded in a timely fashion.  The guest lecturers also do not have access to them unless they've been uploaded to blackboard since that is the responsibility of the administration.  This results in class being started late by 15-30 minutes.

 

Again, I'm trying to find out if these are problems throughout PA programs and something we just need to deal with.  Or is this specific to mine and should we press for things to change and receive more equality?

 

 

1. Having a couple 1-2 hour lectures that just can't get rescheduled is normal. You'll be asked to read material on your own and address any questions to the prof before the exam (usually by email).

Normal.

 

2. Guest lectures are all over the map, some are great, some worthless. 90% of our guest lecturers were MDs. Sometimes they knew exactly how to convey the right amout of relevant info for what we were currently studying. Other times they went into such minutia and so far off track, they must have thought that all 40 of us were fellows in their field. Normal.

 

3. Need more info; do your professors serve as your advisors? What other support staff are you requiring? It may be that you need to seek out college/university staff that are not part of the PA program, depending on your requirements.

No call.

 

4. If you're in didactic year, you're not going be seeing a lot of patients outside of a few planned encounters and your standardized ones. So you shouldn't expect a lot of hands on patients here (that is what your previous experience and your clinical year are for). However; you should be getting hands-on practice in skills lab with your classmates/lab partner. Are you?

No Call.

 

5. Email is an official form of communication at most schools/work places. If you're being ignored repeatedly on pertinent information/questions that you have not received response for, escalate the problem up the appropriate channel. Program director? Dean? Maybe try dropping by the professor's office or catching them after class first. If the emails are arguing about some test question for the tenth time, maybe not...

Possibly Abnormal.

 

6. Yeah, you signed up for PA school, and this is par for the course. They have an extremely large amount of material to teach you in a very limited amount of time. There will be days when you're asked to be there before 8am and days when you stay past 5pm. Sometimes stuff happens and the schedule changes that day. They asked you to be flexible because they're trying to work around cancelations, conflicts, etc. to get all the material covered. They're not changing it for their own amusement. Unless you're being asked to stay everyday to 8pm; the "but we're adults" argument is pretty weak here. Didactic is didactic, be flexible, you signed up for this.

Normal.

 

7. You have an attendance policy. Again, this is something that PA schools entails and is normal. You shouldn't be chastised for missing a day if you're sick, etc. But excessive absenteeism needs correction. A professor canceling a lecture is not the same as you missing a day though. As for your classmates tattling? Sounds like some maturity problems among your class.

Normal (strict attendance)

 

8. Guest lecturers brought THEIR OWN powerpoint 95% of the time. And we'd then upload it afterwards to BB for everyone to have. Idk why your lecturers need it uploaded for them...they should have their own slides.

Slightly abnormal

 

4 normals, 2 no calls, 2 abnormals.

 

It sounds as if the majority of your complaints center around the schedule, schedule changes, and absences. This is just part of the reality of PA school and the time available to cover material. It comes off as a bit whiny honestly. Yes we all commiserated amongst ourselves about how we hated our 4pm slot being filled the morning of. But three or four or five changes a week were completely normal. Sometimes it was to our benefit, other times it sucked. But if you choose to go to PA school thinking that you would have a consistent schedule for two years, you didn't read enough about it before hand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the feedback.  It does seem like it depends a lot on which program one attends.  Ours isn't ranked yet, but assume it will be below 50%.

 

For the patient experience, we were shown simulation labs during all the tours and it was explicitly stated that we'd have lots of practice.  We chose this program because of what we were told it offered, and it seems like a bait and switch occurred in this area and others.  For those saying we should deal with it, acquiesce, since we chose the program, that's not how the world works, nor one I want to live in; especially if false advertising was involved.   It's best to try to change/improve a situation instead of accepting a status quo or subpar environment.  I would hope that if we can't see improvements for our class, we can help future classes.

 

Both directors are aware of complaints from students, but that hasn't had an impact.  We've had multiple class meetings with the director during which improvements were suggested and changes promised; though there was no follow-through.  

 

It does appear opinions are based on individual programs, though I do think ours does need to improve in these areas, especially with communication and expectations.  I think the best approach, as someone mentioned, would be to attempt to voice issues in terms of wanting to improve the program overall for both faculty and students rather than giving a list of complaints.  And to choose the most important ones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the patient experience, we were shown simulation labs during all the tours and it was explicitly stated that we'd have lots of practice.  We chose this program because of what we were told it offered, and it seems like a bait and switch occurred in this area and others.

 

So you're not doing any clin skills lab with your classmates? (usually it's a couple times a week)

 

For those saying we should deal with it, acquiesce, since we chose the program, that's not how the world works, nor one I want to live in; especially if false advertising was involved.   It's best to try to change/improve a situation instead of accepting a status quo or subpar environment.

 

You're not going to dictate the schedule to your program. Some of your complaints are valid and need addressing, but the changing schedule of PA school is normal. I know people get disappointed/made plans/etc., but you really should expect to be at there beck and call, that's part of our compressed training.

 

 

It really sounds like you're at a newer program. Yes/no?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

ARC-PA would definitely be interested in knowing about this.

That's kind of a nuclear option, and not one I'd recommend until you're one step short of filing a lawsuit for breach of contract. :-(  I recommend exhausting all other avenues first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ARC-PA would definitely be interested in knowing about this.

 

I disagree - as long as the school is meeting ARC standards (which, to be fair, we can't tell if that's true or not from this post) they likely don't care that a program has to make last minute changes in the schedule that are inconvenient to students.  Or that guest lecturers can't upload their slides to blackboard.  They certainly don't need to hear about adult tattletales.

 

The only part of this that ARC may want/need to know about is if students aren't learning what is expected - and not based on school objectives but based on ARC standards.

 

OP - I"m also curious what semester you're in?  Are you just starting?  Or almost done with didactic?  If you're just starting, you shouldn't expect to have a lot of hands on or sim labs yet - you need to learn some things before you can start doing things!  Part of life is learning to choose your battles.  Don't expect that all of your complaints will be addressed.  Prioritize.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's kind of a nuclear option, and not one I'd recommend until you're one step short of filing a lawsuit for breach of contract. :-(  I recommend exhausting all other avenues first.

 

There are no other functional options.  If you stand alone, you risk admonishment and stigmatization.  If you waste hours and days trying to mount a coalition, you will only place yourself further in the hole.  You and your classmates have no control over a program other than your ability to appeal to those who do.  Report your grievances anonymously to a higher power and rapidly begin studying for your next exam.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We're in our last semester for didactic year and yes this is a new program.  Labs do not have enough supplies because they weren't ordered or can't be found. It's just a total lack of organization w/in the program.

Again, another issue popped up where 2 of 6 lectures planned on an exam (detailed in the syllabus) will no longer be on it because they forgot to write questions for those lectures.  We were notified 24 hours before the exam and there will be no future testing on these topics because it's the last exam for that course.  This is at least the second time this has happened. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're almost done with didactic. Flag what wasn't covered in didactic and cover it on your own when you get a chance.

 

I doubt there is anything that will lead to substantive changes before you start rotations. Accordingly, I would recommend putting your head down and finishing. Anything else would be an energy-sucking vampire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're almost done with didactic. Flag what wasn't covered in didactic and cover it on your own when you get a chance.

 

I doubt there is anything that will lead to substantive changes before you start rotations. Accordingly, I would recommend putting your head down and finishing. Anything else would be an energy-sucking vampire.

 

You're right.  It's a shame there are problems in the program, and to fix them requires taking time away from my education, which is more important over the next year.  Thanks for the advice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regardless of which program the OP is attending, his or her problem is likely not unique. It is important that applicants do their due diligence when they consider schools,especially the newer programs. Besides the usual research, try:

 

- If possible, visit the school before you apply and case the place out.

- During your interview visit, buttonhole existing students and find out what they like and don't like

- assess where the faculty came from. Is the director new or did they come from another program?

- etc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While true there are many new PA programs opening, please do not lump them together thinking this is the “norm” of new programs.


 


I chose to attend a new PA program, and I have no complaints about my education or learning experience. My program was started by a PA with many years of teaching experience, and a university president who wanted nothing but the best for a PA school. That combination together forged a great program, who's curriculum and clinical rotations rival other PA programs in its state and surrounding states.


 


I would take my new program over one of the older programs any day. Just because a program has been around a long time, it certainly doesn’t always make them the best choice.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you do not mind, what program is this?

 

At this time I prefer not to answer that, but surely would after graduating.  What I will say in terms of new programs (at least those like this one), definitely ask students about what changes are being made and if they're happy with those changes.  If you get an answer like "They're always making improvements.  They want our feedback".  That sounds great, but programs are also required to obtain student feedback since it's part of the accreditation process. I'd say get students to be more specific with their answers and don't be afraid to ask what the students still want to see changed that hasn't been addressed.  Ask about communication, how long it takes for faculty to respond. And definitely ask multiple students.  I'd say be wary of the ones that are overly chipper as they could be the type of person to easily accept situations like this and so won't realize problems or may even choose not to speak about them).  You may need to talk to a student away from others to get an honest answer. If you think you're getting token answers then rely on your gut.  Though I know it's also a difficult choice if you've only been accepted to one school.  Do you take the chance of waiting another year and applying? Hard to say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I too went to a new program; the first class graduated two months after our class started. I also teach for a program that's just about to admit its 5th class and graduate its third. In either case, it is obvious how well the programs operate, the dedication of the faculty, the leadership of a competent and caring director, and the school's organizational commitment.

 

When I was a student and interviewed at the PA program (after casing it out three months early with a visit to the academic coordinator), I asked a student what they didn't like about the program. She said that they were always changing the school but, on reflection, she decided that it was in response to student feedback and that really was a good thing. The director had been a director elsewhere and was very active in PAEA. I decided to go there and enjoyed the experience immensely (which is why I wrote a book about it.)

 

I also interviewed and accepted by a much older program. The student I buttonholed there said "They treat us like children." Being 57 at the time, that didn't sound like a good match for me (there were logistical issues as well). 

 

It's not the age of the program; it's how well it's run. An older program has statistics you can consider. A newer program takes some digging. There are gems out there of both varieties.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's kind of a nuclear option, and not one I'd recommend until you're one step short of filing a lawsuit for breach of contract. :-(  I recommend exhausting all other avenues first.

I disagree that it's a nuclear option. In fact the ARC-PA welcomes student feedback regarding programs that are inconsistent and put students in jeopardy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You aren't alone.

 

My program seems to have lot of faculty turnover ... and is understaffed by at least 2 FTEs ... except for the entrenched ... who either

A) haven't bothered to update their lecture material in 10 years nor maintained a license to practice, or

B) tell you to learn it on your own and tell you 'that is "adult" learning'. (Caveat - there is some merit to this - this is a graduate degree program for professionals - it's not going to be spoon fed to you as if in high school).

 

Guest lecturerers are great for some 'real world' knowledge, but you are correct, they often aren't connected with what you'll be tested over - in your program or on the PANCE (or on the PANRE, if you follow what's going on with recertification).

FWIW, if we don't have a guest lecturer's slides, one of our class members gets it from them before they start and emails it to everyone or posts it to our FB group immediately - it may or may not get to Blackboard anytime soon - at least we'll have it to take notes on during the lecture (our guests often have their own lecture).

 

If you protest insufficient notice for 'mandatory' attendance outside of the published 8-5 schedule, you will be censured for unprofessionalism ... And it's noted in your records.

 

Faculty are unapologetic if they are unprofessionally late ... or absent without notice.

 

And yes, we have snitches in our peers ... It's like being in grade school.

 

I suspect some relationship to where programs are "ranked" (even though the published rankings are limited and subjective). Our program is below the 50th%. Yours?

Would you mind sharing your program name?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to the Physician Assistant Forum! This website uses cookies to ensure you get the best experience on our website. Learn More