NP vs PA compensation for same job

[NYCPAC]

As a pa who is relocating to the west coast I I've noticed that a certain facility has opportunities available for PA or NP and they are listed as separate jobs however the job descriptions are exactly the same. after interviewing the department told me they are hiring either a pa or np for the position. What I don't understand is that the listing for the NP has a salary range on it that's almost $30k higher than the pa salary listed at its upper end. Why is it that on the west coast pa's are paid less than nps for the exact same role? Yes I understand that technically an np can work solo but they aren't in this situation and they aren't required to bill either. Just wondering how, if offered to me, I could push for a salary closer to what's being offered for an np since clearly it's in their budget. [emoji848]

 

 

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[rpackelly]

California is not an NP independent practice state (yet).  Oregon and Washington, technically yes, but there is growing evidence that does not do anything for corporate or physician liability, especially in an emergency or single specialty group (ED or hospitalist) or for corporate liability.   

[DizzyJ]

I just relocated to California (Sacramento suburbs) in December and have not found that to be the case with my current job or the other jobs I was offered.  I wonder if perhaps it is an institutional thing at the systems you are looking at. Perhaps the ones in charge of hiring are RN/NP.  Where are you looking?  I went from Ohio to Hawaii, with a little pay increase.  Then from Hawaii to California with a bigger increase.  I have heard from other discussion an opinion that Cali is a more NP favored state, but have not seen this directly as of yet.  

[NYCPAC]

That's good to know about NPs not being an independent state (yet). Wasn't aware of that.

 

I'm looking in LA, and it seems to be the case amongst a few hospitals I've interviewed with. I've been told by a hiring manager that because I am a pa not an NP that hr will even try to offer you less. Maybe it's across the boards in LA? It's obvious to me that their salary range can accommodate this extra $30k but I'm not sure why they think an np should earn more than a pa for the exact same role. Also not sure if offered this position how I can ask why the position is listed separately and why the np listing is at a higher range. It almost feels discriminatory

 

 

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[cinntsp]

That's good to know about NPs not being an independent state (yet). Wasn't aware of that.

 

I'm looking in LA, and it seems to be the case amongst a few hospitals I've interviewed with. I've been told by a hiring manager that because I am a pa not an NP that hr will even try to offer you less. Maybe it's across the boards in LA? It's obvious to me that their salary range can accommodate this extra $30k but I'm not sure why they think an np should earn more than a pa for the exact same role. Also not sure if offered this position how I can ask why the position is listed separately and why the np listing is at a higher range. It almost feels discriminatory

 

 

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Is it possibly a union thing?

[NYCPAC]

I suppose it could be but they likely aren't paid via the union so why the pay scale is different is unknown to me

 

 

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[rpackelly]

In big cities in California, RNs who are not NPs can make six figures easily working in ICU, ED, weekends, nights, etc.  They get overtime and shift differential because (largely) of the unions.   NPs frequently do not get a lot more for their advanced skills.    PAs can only work as PAs so they figure they have you over sort of a barrel.  It's not like if you don't like their offer you can go off and work 3 12s a week as an RN and pull in just as much or more.  

[ventana]

Demand same pay as NP or turn the job down

 

After they can't hire a NP or PA then they will make the rates even

[NYCPAC]

That's what my logical mind says but how to demand that without losing out is what I'm trying to figure out, if I'm even offered this position.

 

 

 

 

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[Mainer]

Inform them that you have more than twice the training of an NP. 

And deserve to be paid accordingly. 

[Z PA-C]

From what I've seen in Southern California. PA and NP salaries seem to be pretty similar with PAs even making a little more on average but mostly because they tend to choose higher paying specialties vs NPs. I have seen some NP job listings have a higher ceiling because some hospitals count the years they worked at that institution as an RN into their base salary. Also just because a salary range is posted does not mean anyone ever makes it to that maximum.

The bigger problem is that there are so many positions listed for NP only rather than PA or NP.

 

[Febrifuge]

For what it's worth, my group employs both NPs and PAs, and in addition we are in the union. (It's unusual, but kind of cool in several ways.) We get paid the same rate for the same work, and from the organization's point of view, we're functionally the same. This is a big health system/ multi-specialty practice.

 

So, we get the pros and the cons of being lumped in together. I've always felt that while there are some undeniable differences in the didactic and clinical (clock) hours put into training, that all smooths out in a relatively short time, and then it's all about the individual provider anyway. For once, the situation I'm in appears to benefit from the good work done by nurses as they organize and negotiate with employers.

[Acromion]

I am job searching right now and I refuse to consider jobs advertised for "PA/NP." I just know if it is a job that can be done by an NP, then it is beneath my capabilities. Luckily I live in a very PA friendly state where PA's are preferred over NP's in most settings and have above average compensation. The ER I work at has grandfathered in a couple NP's that have been around for a long time, but they will not hire new NP's. Only PA's.

 

I won't apologize for taking the harder route and becoming a PA instead of an NP, just as I would not expect an MD to be satisfied with a job that a PA could do. I went to a school with an FNP program so I witnessed the differences. They didn't even take anatomy. Their pharmacology course was a watered down online course taught by a DNP, not a pharmacist. The did not even take a clinical medicine course. The courses were mostly non-science fluff and their exams were far less rigorous.

 

Now, you could say that I am simply being prejudiced against the NP profession; I am pitting us vs. them. If that were true, I would hold the same opinion about CRNA's as I do NP's, which I do not. As an Anatomy TA, taught PA's and CRNA's at my alma mater, and I have found that CRNA training is probably at the same level as PA's. This leads us to the question: why are CRNA's paid so much more than PA's, and furthermore, why are NP's paid more than PA's in some states?

[NYCPAC]

Are you on the east coast? East coast tends to be way more pa friendly and more likely to hire a pa over an np. I think the west coast has very strong nursing unions hence their np friendly environment.

 

Should this job be offered to me I am just trying to think of ways to leverage myself above an np when their entire dept is staffed by nps and mds. I'd technically be the depts first pa- could work in my favor or against me.

 

 

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[Believe]

I am job searching right now and I refuse to consider jobs advertised for "PA/NP." I just know if it is a job that can be done by an NP, then it is beneath my capabilities. Luckily I live in a very PA friendly state where PA's are preferred over NP's in most settings and have above average compensation. The ER I work at has grandfathered in a couple NP's that have been around for a long time, but they will not hire new NP's. Only PA's.

 

I won't apologize for taking the harder route and becoming a PA instead of an NP, just as I would not expect an MD to be satisfied with a job that a PA could do. I went to a school with an FNP program so I witnessed the differences. They didn't even take anatomy. Their pharmacology course was a watered down online course taught by a DNP, not a pharmacist. The did not even take a clinical medicine course. The courses were mostly non-science fluff and their exams were far less rigorous.

 

Now, you could say that I am simply being prejudiced against the NP profession; I am pitting us vs. them. If that were true, I would hold the same opinion about CRNA's as I do NP's, which I do not. As an Anatomy TA, taught PA's and CRNA's at my alma mater, and I have found that CRNA training is probably at the same level as PA's. This leads us to the question: why are CRNA's paid so much more than PA's, and furthermore, why are NP's paid more than PA's in some states?

 

Wow, you really do not like NPs. You do realize MOST NPs have WORKED as a nurse for a couple years which is a much higher level of HCE than many PA students have right now. Sure there are some online programs, but the programs around me are all reputable. In fact, one NP basically runs the respiratory unit in a major hospital. Many argue that NPs have way less clinical hours than a PA program. This may be true, however, I'll go back to the point that most of these people have worked as a nurse before. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm PA all the way, but I'm not going to assume someone is incompetent because they're a NP, nor am I going to question their training. 

By not considering jobs advertised as PA/NP, you are only hurting yourself. The hospital I used to work at, the #7 overall, and #1 healthcare place to work at, advertises positions as PA/ARNP all the time.

[UpRegulated]

I am job searching right now and I refuse to consider jobs advertised for "PA/NP." I just know if it is a job that can be done by an NP, then it is beneath my capabilities. 

 

O...M...G...

 

Good luck on your job search.

[db_pavnp]

Taking your statements as fact, I feel your assumption regarding job postings is way off.  Many HR departments may simply list PA/NP as a matter of habit.  That says nothing about which one is typically hired, even always hired.  Says nothing about about department managers sniffing out competence or experience and hiring the best individual for the job.

[fishbum]

This leads us to the question: why are CRNA's paid so much more than PA's?

 

Anesthesiology is one of the most profitable specialties. I imagine that the relatively high collections combined with relatively low overhead helps drive CRNA salaries up. 

[Clarrain]

I am really glad I found this post, because I noticed the same thing. I currently work as an intern at the UCLA Ronald Reagan Center and I noticed that there are no PAs in my unit (it is a liver transfer unit). And when I asked the charge nurse about why there are no PAs, she told me that the hospital got rid of PAs in the past two years because they don't know how to handle "acute cases" like the NPs. This really worries me, because UCLA Medical Center is one of the top 3 hospitals in the nation and they don't hire PAs. Or at least they prefer to hire NPs over PAs. Does anyone have any insight as to what is going on? Or is this only something common around the LA area? 

[Believe]

I am really glad I found this post, because I noticed the same thing. I currently work as an intern at the UCLA Ronald Reagan Center and I noticed that there are no PAs in my unit (it is a liver transfer unit). And when I asked the charge nurse about why there are no PAs, she told me that the hospital got rid of PAs in the past two years because they don't know how to handle "acute cases" like the NPs. This really worries me, because UCLA Medical Center is one of the top 3 hospitals in the nation and they don't hire PAs. Or at least they prefer to hire NPs over PAs. Does anyone have any insight as to what is going on? Or is this only something common around the LA area? 

 

I find this hard to believe, did you research this? I really doubt there are NO PAs in the entire hospital

[EMEDPA]

I find this hard to believe, did you research this? I really doubt there are NO PAs in the entire hospital

UCLA probably has an NP program and no affiliation with any PA programs. it's home grown prejudice. There are plenty of competent critical care PAs and plenty of competent critical care NPs. it really is about the individual as well as their background. we can argue this all day, but it really comes down to that.

[Clarrain]

I find this hard to believe, did you research this? I really doubt there are NO PAs in the entire hospital

I have been asking around and the charge nurse informed me there are no PAs in the Mattel's Children's hospital, ICU, or units that handle acute cases. As I mentioned previously, I work at the liver transplant unit and last year they got rid of their last PA. According to the charge nurse, she said they had hired 3 PAs in the last couple of years. Two of the PAs couldn't even last 6 months because they had no intensive care background and weren't a good fit at the unit. One PA did have ICU experience, but only lasted 1 year and then decided to leave for reasons unknown. She told me that from now on, HR decided to only hire NPs for this unit and other intensive care units. 

 

However, I am talking from experience working at the Ronald Reagan location only. UCLA has another location in Santa Monica and I do not know if they hire PAs or not. 

[db_pavnp]

I feel it is a strange thing to suggest that "HR decided" not to hire something or other.  I don't usually see HRs deciding on qualifications etc needed to do things.  Go to the source if you're interested.

[NYCPAC]

Ok so now I'm confused more than ever. Had the interview for this job that I originally posted about the salary difference for. First person I met with was an RN recruiter from HR. She basically told me she knows nothing about pa's and asked me a few questions that were only relevant to NPs. She jumped right into benefits and then dropped the dreaded salary question of "what do you make now" and I froze and dropped a number only $5k higher than what I already make. She brought up some chart that has job descriptions and the salary ranges on them from the hospital and said that my salary would likely be around the same and would be compared with other pa's in the hospital. I mentioned that the np job listing was identical but with a different salary range and she said it's because "nps and rns salaries are based on steps and a clear clinical background." Is that really any different than a pa, honestly? I secondly met with the director who asked how it went with this HR person and I also mentioned to him (only because the topic of salary and hiring and np vs a pa came up), about the difference in job salary ranges and he pretty much eluded that HR has no idea about what we want to offer so ignore what she told you. However he, as well as another director who both come from hospitals that utilized a lot of pas mentioned to me that they are having issues getting pa's in the door as there is a little pushback from legal standpoints and that HR already has an NP template for the position, but that they really want to change this. Essentially I anticipate that the will only hire a pa if they can get HR behind them. Right now they only have nps and the one And only I met with wasn't the friendliest and gave me the sense that it's almost easier to hire an np than you. I was asked legal questions about how pa's practice in the state that i couldn't answer because I practice in another state currently. UGH, if this position is even offered to me within the next few weeks how on earth do I push HR to acknowledge that I am providing the same care and same role as an NP!!!!!!!!!

 

 

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[skyfall]

During my hiring process, I was told by HR that our company only covered state license insurance insurances for MD, DO and NPs only. PA's were so new to the practice (there was only 1 before me and he had already left), that only those 3 professions were listed in their contract or whatever legal papers they already had, but not PA's. I spent a long time on the phone debating with HR why I should also get compensated, but they wouldn't have it. I kept reasoning with them over the phone multiple times, and finally they talked to the medical chief/director about it and finally they relented. It was definitely a fight though.