Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 19, 2015 Moderator Share Posted July 19, 2015 I was just on the PAEA site http://directory.paeaonline.org/ and noticed the following: 217 programs either running or undergoing accreditation, 120 require prior HCE, 86 of these 120 require a gpa > 3.0, of those 86, 55 require the gre. 0 associate degree programs 8 BS level programs things have changed so much in just 20 years....wish I could say I was pleased with the direction... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick87 Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I'm glad I'm experienced (albeit still on the junior side of medicine). New grads will have a hell of a hard time getting jobs with that many programs out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cup Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I'm glad I'm experienced (albeit still on the junior side of medicine). New grads will have a hell of a hard time getting jobs with that many programs out there. Crap, you really think so? But there are ~170 MD/DO programs out there (Source: Wikipedia) and on average these programs accept at least double the amount of students compared to PA programs, right? (Source: my assumption) Are doctors having trouble finding jobs? Or are these totally incomparable? Honest question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick87 Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Crap, you really think so? But there are ~170 MD/DO programs out there (Source: Wikipedia) and on average these programs accept at least double the amount of students compared to PA programs, right? (Source: my assumption) Are doctors having trouble finding jobs? Or are these totally incomparable? Honest question. Depends what specialty. Family docs are not having trouble finding jobs at all. I hear that things have been getting worse for certain specialties like anesthesiology. Check out the student doctor forum for more info. It does seem to point this way in the future since new grad PAs are already having trouble finding fair paying jobs in big cities. I think, eventually, PA will go the way of pharmacy and law. But this will probably take at least 5-10 years (maybe longer). **DISCLAIMER: This is just my opinion (and prediction) and should not be taken as fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 19, 2015 Author Moderator Share Posted July 19, 2015 Crap, you really think so? But there are ~170 MD/DO programs out there (Source: Wikipedia) and on average these programs accept at least double the amount of students compared to PA programs, right? (Source: my assumption) Are doctors having trouble finding jobs? Or are these totally incomparable? Honest question. there are plenty of PA jobs and will be for the foreseeable future, they just won't all be in major metro areas. it's about distribution. willing to work in a town of 10,000 people? you will have no problems finding a job in your specialty of choice. want to do em in NYC for 90 k as a new grad? good luck with that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paula Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Small towns rule. Big cities drool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marktheshark89 Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I think its also worth noting that an additional 69 programs prefer/recommend HCE. My school is on that list and noone would be getting into my school without HCE. For us, its about not excluding the rare individual who may have little healthcare experience but may still have somethhing unique to contribute to the class and healthcare in general. I'd imagine some of those other 69 are also similar in that though HCE is not a requirement, your chances of getting in are slim to none without it. Additionally, my program does not have a minimum overall GPA but rather a minimum science GPA of 3.0. So if you search the overall GPA tool for >3.0, my school does not even show up. However if you search no gpa requirement it does show up. Just another example of how that directory can be somewhat deceiving. (Not saying I'm not concerned about the quality of programs and applicanta, because I am, but just pointing out some flaws in that tool that might be misleading). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMann Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 With all the current and new programs coming, finding and keeping quality faculty is huge concern. Our program has experienced some turnover due to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marktheshark89 Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 does anyone think the PA educator salaries will ever reach that of practicing PA salaries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 19, 2015 Author Moderator Share Posted July 19, 2015 does anyone think the PA educator salaries will ever reach that of practicing PA salaries? doubt it. an associate program director position just offered me 30k less to go work for them...and that was the top of their pay scale.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunafish Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 doubt it. an associate program director position just offered me 30k less to go work for them...and that was the top of their pay scale.... 30K less overall or hour per hour. What are you comparing? My understanding from your posts that you work more than 40 hours in a week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 19, 2015 Author Moderator Share Posted July 19, 2015 30K less overall or hour per hour. What are you comparing? My understanding from your posts that you work more than 40 hours in a week overall salary now vs teaching. don't make the mistake of thinking teaching is only a 40 hr job. at many places you need to be there on weekends too for interviews, committees, etc. I looked at a clinical coordinator position a few years ago that was 48 hrs/week and paid 1/2 my current salary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpackelly Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Unfortunately teaching and clinical practice for PAs are two different professions with separate learning curves. I remember sitting at a desk at my first full time teaching job and just praying that I could become as competent at that as I was clinically after 16 years of prior practice. It was not overnight, btw, with an entirely different fund of knowledge (I could write a book about that). So, moving from clinic to your first full time didactic teaching gig is like taking an entry level job in another profession, with pay that reflects that. But working yourself up to a program director or dean brings salary parity plus additional freedom of truly running your own shop (under the university, but about the same level of freedom--and stress-- as a doc running a department). But going from PA teaching to program administration is yet another career shift and another huge learning curve. And ask some of our colleagues who go beyond that.....to dean and then provost. Another leap entirely. Feel free to ignore the following if military analogies are not useful to you. Experienced PA clinicians are like senior captains.......good company grade officers and leaders with a specialty. After time in grade they can progress to major and Lt. Colonel in salary but not in command (direct report) status. Sort of specialists in their fields but with more collateral duties and respect in the larger workplace. A switch to PA educator then unfortunately brings a regression back to lieutenant level and salary and a need work their way back to where they were before. This can be an uncomfortable journey for confident clinicians. Many first and second time faculty circulate in and out of academia and back to clinical practice. Every three or four years the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence. A doctoral degree can help mitigate this (it is almost a job guarantee in looking for a faculty position and certainly helps in promotion) but only part-way. Doctoral grads who enter education as program directors without educational experience have an incredibly steep learning curve and only the best survive. It is an entirely different ball game. PA program mid-level administrators (associate directors, academic directors, clinical directors) are like majors....entry level staff officers. No direct reports and much paperwork, copying of emails to director. Director usually gets credit. Mid-level administrator gets blame. PA directors are Lt. Colonels and Colonels (the more senior are also department chairs usually and/or have larger programs and responsibilities). This is a sweet spot but also a heck of alot of work. Probation=no job. Founding program director likely hardest job, second only to bringing a program out of probation or the weeds. It's very hard to still maintain clinical competence as a PA program director. Maintenance of the "PA-C" status is required but frequently problematic after five or ten years of dealing primarily with committee dynamics. PA program directors can attract salaries of 150K in the larger, well respected, well funded programs, or programs desperate to attract a PD for one reason or another. Of course, there are a few PA clinicians in certain specialties that make as much or more. Associate Deans and Deans are like Colonels and Brig. Generals depending on the size of their college and numbers of programs and whether the associate deans have direct reports or not. Sometimes PA program directors get associate or assistant dean titles when they are chairs and directors of large PA departments/programs. Dean salaries range from 150 to 200K. So, Deans have finally risen above what most could earn clinically. Deans run colleges and other programs as well as PA Programs. This demands collegiality, lots and lots of management skill, and true belief in the value of other health professions, transcending your PA identity. Your clinical identity receeds into deep background, Deans almost never work clinically, and they usually end up losing their "C" eventually. There have been about ten PAs that have risen to dean rank in major universities which is an incredible credit to the profession. For a large college this is really equivalent to the rank of brig general. Our DHSc program recently ran a one week leadership seminar with three PA deans (and one promoted to vice president). Provosts are major generals. They have academic responsibility for the entire university. We have one PA Provost currently (Dr. Matt Dane Baker). This is a recent development and hopefully portends future trends. Presidents are like God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 20, 2015 Author Moderator Share Posted July 20, 2015 Thanks for that explanation Dr Kelly. That is a good analogy and makes a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialMedicine Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 one other thoughts. just because a school reports min GPA 3 or HCE not mandatory does not mean those indiivudals have any decent chance of acceptance. I am a big fan of real health care experience. However, I would not want my PA program to h be mandating HCE because I could not accept someone who is extraordinary in other areas who will likely excel in clinical medicine without the HCE. For example a PhD in microbiology/physiology whom can compensate for low HCE early by getting involved in other clinical activites didactic year because of his/her already exceptional basic sciences background. This is just one example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceBanner Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 there are plenty of PA jobs and will be for the foreseeable future, they just won't all be in major metro areas. it's about distribution. willing to work in a town of 10,000 people? you will have no problems finding a job in your specialty of choice. want to do em in NYC for 90 k as a new grad? good luck with that... Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 20, 2015 Author Moderator Share Posted July 20, 2015 one other thoughts. just because a school reports min GPA 3 or HCE not mandatory does not mean those indiivudals have any decent chance of acceptance. I am a big fan of real health care experience. However, I would not want my PA program to h be mandating HCE because I could not accept someone who is extraordinary in other areas who will likely excel in clinical medicine without the HCE. For example a PhD in microbiology/physiology whom can compensate for low HCE early by getting involved in other clinical activites didactic year because of his/her already exceptional basic sciences background. This is just one example. FWIW the WORST student I have ever had was a guy with a PhD in microbiology and no other HCE. thought he was too good to have to study to be a PA, show up on time during his rotations, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maynard Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 86 of these 120 require a gpa > 3.0 There are also many, many medical schools that don't require a 3.0 and have no GPA cutoff at all. For instance, one could, in theory, get into Harvard Medical School with a 2.0 GPA. There's nothing in the requirements that says you can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acozadd Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 EMED- worst student I ever had was an RN. The scribes in my office ran circles around her... Only further cementing the fact that prior HCE is a great foundation, but does not necessarily make you a better student or better provider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 20, 2015 Author Moderator Share Posted July 20, 2015 I had not been aware that all of the associate degree programs were closed. I would like to see the PA field have multiple points of entry, just like nursing. If individuals could enter at the A.S., B.S., M.S., and DSc. level, based on their highest prior degree completed, this would create an applicant pool with a wider variety of prior life and HCE experiences than the current pool provides. Individuals could always complete post-grad programs to advance to the level of their choosing or to meet regional requirements for licensure in specific states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbrothers98 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 does anyone think the PA educator salaries will ever reach that of practicing PA salaries? Yes. I am going to go full time as the director of clinical education at the local pa program and I negotiated the base salary I currently have as an EM PA. Wouldnt This will be a 4 day a week position with one day clinical. I likely will work 30-40 clinical shifts during the year which will then increase my gross a minimum of another $30k. I actually have the potential to then make more than when I was practicing clinically. G Brothers PA-C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyoung1 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 does anyone think the PA educator salaries will ever reach that of practicing PA salaries? This is an argument I have with my dean frequently. One day a week of clinical practice does make up for some for the lower academic salary, however; to attract PA's from clinical practice to academics it needs to be better. My reasoning is that for many people either job brings essentially the same job satisfaction. Academia allows for a more flexible schedule however; if all other items of comparison are the same who wouldn't go for the higher salary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marktheshark89 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 That, and many programs at large academic centers let their faculty do 1 clinical day per week, but the salary from that day goes to the program not to the faculty member. I know several programs where this is the case. They may start their faculty at higher salary to compensate, I do not know. Doesn't look like there will be any shortage or much competition for PA faculty jobs though for the near future at least. I know one of the top programs in the country in the last year listed a faculty position, and over a three month period got a total of 4 applicants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 31, 2015 Author Moderator Share Posted July 31, 2015 That, and many programs at large academic centers let their faculty do 1 clinical day per week, but the salary from that day goes to the program not to the faculty member. I know several programs where this is the case. They may start their faculty at higher salary to compensate, I do not know. Doesn't look like there will be any shortage or much competition for PA faculty jobs though for the near future at least. I know one of the top programs in the country in the last year listed a faculty position, and over a three month period got a total of 4 applicants. depends where the programs are. if you look on the paea faculty jobs website, some of those jobs have been posted for a long time, > 4 months. sure, lots of folks want to teach in NYC, L.A., Seattle, New orleans, etc, but try finding new pa faculty for a new program in kansas, oklahoma, texas, TN, or any of the other "fly over states". http://www2.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=d/sp/i/66762/pid/66762 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marktheshark89 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Agreed, however the program I am referring to is close by to several metropolitan areas and is in one of the best states for practicing PAs and is well-known as a top tier program. It was surprising to me that there were so few applicants. Perhaps it was just an anomaly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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