Doctoral studies for PAs

[ilovelost]

Somewhat depressing... starting PA school in 2016, graduating in 2018, and my masters degree might already be outdated... would it be better to just wait until all programs are at the doctorate level? :-/

[EMEDPA]

Somewhat depressing... starting PA school in 2016, graduating in 2018, and my masters degree might already be outdated... would it be better to just wait until all programs are at the doctorate level? :-/

you would have to wait 20 years...that's about how long it took for BS to MS.

when I went to PA school in the early 90s there were 2 out of 52 programs that were MS.

[gbrothers98]

you would have to wait 20 years...that's about how long it took for BS to MS.

when I went to PA school in the early 90s there were 2 out of 52 programs that were MS.

I think you will see some programs move to doctorate within the next 5 years.

They know that there are folks out there that want that.

In the interim, more PAs with MS degrees that want/need doctorate and really only a few choices.

 

Historical perspective:

First PA program Duke 1965.

First PA program to graduate PAs with MS, Duke, 1988.

First PA doctoral program established at Nova SE Univ.

Most PA programs transition to Masters by mid to late 2000s.

Clinical doctorate summit 2009 states Masters is terminal degree.

http://www.innovationlabs.com/clinical_doctorate_summit/index.html

 

So it took about 20 yrs for the trend Duke set in '88 to come to fruition.

There will be a program that will act unilaterally (wonder who that will be?) and then it will occur but likely over a similar time horizon.

In the meantime, more post MS doctorates will develop similar to the BS to MS bridge programs such as AT Still and UNMC.

GB PA-C

[EMEDPA]

the problem is that at present PAEA refuses to credential any entry level doctoral programs. the "work around" for this will likely be entry level master's programs with "post graduate" doctoral options, consisting of only a few courses, which students can enter seamlessly from their ms program.this is essentially what Lynchburg is doing with their DPAM program. asnyone graduating with an MS from that program would be silly to not do a few more courses and an affiliated paid internship to get the DPAM.

[coloradopa]

I think you will see some programs move to doctorate within the next 5 years.

They know that there are folks out there that want that.

In the interim, more PAs with MS degrees that want/need doctorate and really only a few choices.

 

Historical perspective:

First PA program Duke 1965.

First PA program to graduate PAs with MS, Duke, 1988.

First PA doctoral program established at Nova SE Univ.

Most PA programs transition to Masters by mid to late 2000s.

Clinical doctorate summit 2009 states Masters is terminal degree.

http://www.innovationlabs.com/clinical_doctorate_summit/index.html

 

So it took about 20 yrs for the trend Duke set in '88 to come to fruition.

There will be a program that will act unilaterally (wonder who that will be?) and then it will occur but likely over a similar time horizon.

In the meantime, more post MS doctorates will develop similar to the BS to MS bridge programs such as AT Still and UNMC.

GB PA-C

Correction, First program to graduates PAs with Masters, University of Colorado 1973. 

[delco714]

I will quote myself from another thread... If we are trained in the medical model with the M.D. being at the top..

 

"How many credits for md / do? Apples to oranges logistically but if we extrapolate then probably close to 250-300 credit hr. If you then step back and think...maybe a master's degree is approp. I would drop the dpt, doc OT, dnp comparisons at the moment, though bsn to dnp is a "similar" academic progression" [if dnp is the top of the nursing hierarchy]

 

I think the lines of md phd programs where you can get accepted to the PA program but you have extra credits and requirements and end with a Doc health science or similar.

[EMEDPA]

I went to the Hahnemann/drexel alumni reunion last night and had an interesting chat with the program director. They are starting a 2 year online DHSc for PAs next year with no on-campus requirements. Apparently this was the # 1 request of alumni on a survey they recently sent out.

Just was in contact with the program director yesterday- 2015/2016 will be the planning period with the first class expected to start sometime in 2017.

[FfIghter23]

Just was in contact with the program director yesterday- 2015/2016 will be the planning period with the first class expected to start sometime in 2017.

Hmmm, in your opinion... What would be the strength of the program? Health care leadership, education, policy, or global health?

 

I'm very interested and may try to be a part of that first class.

[EMEDPA]

Hmmm, in your opinion... What would be the strength of the program? Health care leadership, education, policy, or global health?

 

I'm very interested and may try to be a part of that first class.

probably all of the above. I would imagine they will have several areas of emphasis.

[SoCalPA]

When you say "several areas of emphasis" does that mean a student may be able to get the degree with an emphasis on a specialty area i.e. EM, Trauma, Ortho? Similar to the Nebraska MPAS?

 

Sent from my SM-G925P using Tapatalk

 

 

[EMEDPA]

When you say "several areas of emphasis" does that mean a student may be able to get the degree with an emphasis on a specialty area i.e. EM, Trauma, Ortho? Similar to the Nebraska MPAS?

 

Sent from my SM-G925P using Tapatalk

don't know yet. I was thinking more education, health policy, global health, etc but I am not privy to the planning.

[ventana]

oh oh more info please!

[SoCalPA]

probably all of the above. I would imagine they will have several areas of emphasis.

EMEDPA any more news about this program or any others? Just curious

[EMEDPA]

EMEDPA any more news about this program or any others? Just curious

not yet. will post more info when I have it.

[fairleyj83]

I believe that a doctorate degree will be a great ideal. Not to be called a doctor but rather what the profession itself deserves. Physician assistant name itself is far from what a physician assistant does. As long as PA's have been around people still do not understand what the profession does. That why physician associate is better suited or mid level provider. But I agree that Doctor of Practicing Med (DPM) or Doctor of Medical Science (DMS) are good fits for the profession. Lincoln Memorial University offer a DMS in three clinical tracks such as, primary care, hospital med and emergency med. It's a 50 semester hour program worth $48,000. Now is that worth it? maybe or maybe not. The master level program itself have over 100 hours. That is more then any other allied health profession to date. Throw in another 20 hours you can get another bachelor degree. Nevertheless, the PA profession needs a name change and a set of new standard for the future. I know some people who have been in the profession for 20 plus years and do not believe that a doctorate program will be beneficial to them. But as medicine and time change so should academic credentials.   

[fairleyj83]

I'm hoping those who pave the way will be brilliant. Makes sense since we already have MMS Masters Medical Science. A lil difficult to explain what "physician assistant studies" means.

I agree 100%! telling people your are getting a masters in physician studies. Somebody once said 'oh i didn't know medical assistants can get a master degree. 

[fairleyj83]

When you say "several areas of emphasis" does that mean a student may be able to get the degree with an emphasis on a specialty area i.e. EM, Trauma, Ortho? Similar to the Nebraska MPAS?

 

Sent from my SM-G925P using Tapatalk

Lincoln Memorial University has a Doctor of Medical Science (DMS). They will have three clinical tracks such as, primary care, hospital medicine and emergency medicine. Also one education track for physician assistants who want to be in academics. 

[delco714]

I believe that a doctorate degree will be a great ideal. Not to be called a doctor but rather what the profession itself deserves. Physician assistant name itself is far from what a physician assistant does. As long as PA's have been around people still do not understand what the profession does. That why physician associate is better suited or mid level provider. But I agree that Doctor of Practicing Med (DPM) or Doctor of Medical Science (DMS) are good fits for the profession. Lincoln Memorial University offer a DMS in three clinical tracks such as, primary care, hospital med and emergency med. It's a 50 semester hour program worth $48,000. Now is that worth it? maybe or maybe not. The master level program itself have over 100 hours. That is more then any other allied health profession to date. Throw in another 20 hours you can get another bachelor degree. Nevertheless, the PA profession needs a name change and a set of new standard for the future. I know some people who have been in the profession for 20 plus years and do not believe that a doctorate program will be beneficial to them. But as medicine and time change so should academic credentials.

DpM?

 

Like dr of podiatric medicine? Hahaha. Silly

[jmj11]

You mean we can't get a doctorate with an emphasis on nursing theory? I would love to read that crap all day long.

[Guest Paula]

I agree 100%! telling people your are getting a masters in physician studies. Somebody once said 'oh i didn't know medical assistants can get a master degree. 

 

 

I tell patients I have a Masters degree in Medicine.  I explain it is a separate and distinct degree and "no, I am not going to finish my degree to become a doctor".  

[Cideous]

Stupid Stupid Stupid.  Going from a Bachelor to a Masters I can understand, although for those of us who went through PA school before everything went Masters, it was an expensive pain in the arse to bridge up.  If I wanted a doctorate, I would of went to medical school.  The thought of even going that route for pa's is a ridiculous degree creep.

[ventana]

Stupid Stupid Stupid.  Going from a Bachelor to a Masters I can understand, although for those of us who went through PA school before everything went Masters, it was an expensive pain in the arse to bridge up.  If I wanted a doctorate, I would of went to medical school.  The thought of even going that route for pa's is a ridiculous degree creep.

in the trenches yes

 

But starting my own practice I got a taste for the political regulatory side of things, and let me tell you it changed my view

 

We are "assistants" and not trained to a doctoral level so we must need oversight and supervision.  When DNP and PT and a slew of other professions are getting clinical doctorates and surpassing us.....

 

If we lived in a perfect world we would still be a certificate program for highly experienced medical folks.... that world is done.....

 

in my state an NP can sign a death cert, can sign all MASSHEALTH forms and a whole slew of other items - me, I need to ask my doc to - mind you this has NOTHING to do with care delivery, but just regulations.

 

I would encourage ALL PA's to reach out to those that are trying to broaden our career's and discuss with them the random regulations placed on us....

 

 

Oh yeah and the fact that EVERY PA lost out on meaningful use $44,000 payments (cause Washington figured/assumed PA's would be covered under the doc) - instead of the NP's who got this - just shows that we are hurt by our name and lack of doctorate option. 

[Cideous]

in the trenches yes

 

But starting my own practice I got a taste for the political regulatory side of things, and let me tell you it changed my view

 

We are "assistants" and not trained to a doctoral level so we must need oversight and supervision.  When DNP and PT and a slew of other professions are getting clinical doctorates and surpassing us.....

 

If we lived in a perfect world we would still be a certificate program for highly experienced medical folks.... that world is done.....

 

in my state an NP can sign a death cert, can sign all MASSHEALTH forms and a whole slew of other items - me, I need to ask my doc to - mind you this has NOTHING to do with care delivery, but just regulations.

 

I would encourage ALL PA's to reach out to those that are trying to broaden our career's and discuss with them the random regulations placed on us....

 

 

Oh yeah and the fact that EVERY PA lost out on meaningful use $44,000 payments (cause Washington figured/assumed PA's would be covered under the doc) - instead of the NP's who got this - just shows that we are hurt by our name and lack of doctorate option. 

 

 

 

We are hurt by our name, not our degree.  Our training is so far superior to any NP program I have seen (mostly online? Give me a break), it's not even funny.  I have been a PA for 22 years and it has always been our name which has held us back.  Sadly, it will never change.  For some reason PA's seem to be joined at the hip with the name "Physician Assistant".  Stupid, and flat out inaccurate.  I see my Physician for exactly 1 hour per month in Texas.  I assist her in nothing.  The name must be changed before anything else changes.  I actually had a Doctor laugh at me one time when I mentioned a doctorate program for PA's.  He said, "what will you be, a Doctor of Physician Assistants???".  There was no argument with him.  It did and still does sound ridiculous.  In the old days, I was a big supporter of changing our name to "MP".  Medical Practitioner.  Unfortunately it never gained traction.

 

p.s.  I owned my own clinic for 12 years (sold it 3 years ago)....I am more familiar with those politics then you can imagine :)

[ventana]

We are hurt by our name, not our degree.  Our training is so far superior to any NP program I have seen (mostly online? Give me a break), it's not even funny.  I have been a PA for 22 years and it has always been our name which has held us back.  Sadly, it will never change.  For some reason PA's seem to be joined at the hip with the name "Physician Assistant".  Stupid, and flat out inaccurate.  I see my Physician for exactly 1 hour per month in Texas.  I assist her in nothing.  The name must be changed before anything else changes.  I actually had a Doctor laugh at me one time when I mentioned a doctorate program for PA's.  He said, "what will you be, a Doctor of Physician Assistants???".  There was no argument with him.  It did and still does sound ridiculous.  In the old days, I was a big supporter of changing our name to "MP".  Medical Practitioner.  Unfortunately it never gained traction.

 

p.s.  I owned my own clinic for 12 years (sold it 3 years ago)....I am more familiar with those politics then you can imagine :)

but if you are familiar with the politics, why would not agree that a name change and matching what almost all other ALLIED health field are doing?  Heck we are not allied health, we give orders to allied health.... we slot in above them, but have lower degrees

[Cideous]

but if you are familiar with the politics, why would not agree that a name change and matching what almost all other ALLIED health field are doing?  Heck we are not allied health, we give orders to allied health.... we slot in above them, but have lower degrees

 

 

 

What's next then?  Full residences before you can be licensed?  It will never end, that is why I have been and will always be against it.  Our name is terrible, for the reasons I mention above.  Our degree is not.  My PA program was brutal, and we trained at one of the best training hospitals in the world along with the medical students (on the same rotations).  That's what gives me the confidence and right to give orders to PT's and nurses with doctorates.  I spent more hours training in that 27 straight months of PA school then any of the allied health doctorates do writing thesis and such.  If we don't put an end to this incessant degree creep, it will bury our field.  We need to focus on:

 

1.  Changing our stupid name to something appropriate to what we do.  As I mentioned, I support "Medical Practitioner" or MP.

and..

2.  Focus on training.  PA schools are popping up on every corner, and if we don't watch out, their output will be no better then the online Nurse Practitioner degree farms.  

 

Just my 2cents.  It may sound harsh, but we need to break out of the rut our profession is in.