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Doctoral studies for PAs


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Alright, I know there have already been multiple discussions on this topic but they are getting old and it's time to inject something new. It has been said that a doctorate in physician assistant studies is an m.d. and those who want to be mds should just go to med school. Others have said it won't increase salaries and, still others don't want to see what they view as degree creep in the PA profession. I don't buy any of that for several reasons. If we look at other professionals in the medical field, there are, for example, PTs, OTs and NPs. All of these degrees are slowly but surely turning into doctorates. PTs originally got bachelor's degrees, then master's (MPT), and as of 2015 all PT programs in the U.S. are at the doctorate (PhD) level. The APTA has never expressed the opinion, as far as I know, that DPTs should be called doctor or be treated as MDs. PTs often state that DPT salaries are not higher than MPT salaries, though this may be debatable. What they (APTA) are trying to accomplish is more subtle. First, the APTA recognizes that PT training really needs to be at the doctorate level. As a result the degree awarded should be a PhD in recognition of the degree requirements. Most of you who have responded to previous discussions on this forum seem to agree that PA training is already at the doctorate level, even if you are against degree creep or think being a DPA is ridiculous. Second, the APTA wants PTs to get direct patient access without the need for physician referrals. To some degree they are already achieving this goal. I think this is what nurses are driving toward with the DNP since not all states allow them to practice independently to the degree they would like. These advanced degrees may not increase salaries but, if DNPs and DPTs can practice independently in their own business, they can become entrepreneurs and offer all kinds of services that patients want. Examples might be house calls, 24/7 care at no extra charge, or other unique ways to give patients value for their health care dollars. One problem that most PAs will think of immediately is that the AAPA is committed to a collaborative arrangement with physicians. For many PAs that may still be the best model, but the world is changing and health care reform is driving that change. Perhaps the old PA model needs to be revisited. Other medical professional organizations are changing, why not PAs? Sent from my KFAPWI using Tapatalk

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careful with PhD versus DPT, DPAM and other doctorates

 

PhD is not a clinical doctorate and is NOT equal to a clinical doctorate (Ask any PhD more about this)

 

PT's do not get Phd, but instead a DPT

 

I agree with your points, just make sure you are using correct verbiage.... it makes a difference

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careful with PhD versus DPT, DPAM and other doctorates

 

PhD is not a clinical doctorate and is NOT equal to a clinical doctorate (Ask any PhD more about this)

 

PT's do not get Phd, but instead a DPT

 

I agree with your points, just make sure you are using correct verbiage.... it makes a difference

You are correct about the nomenclature. For OT and PT, the clinical doctorate is now the entry level degree and is often a requirement to advance to the PhD level, though schools may offer a fast track option. My bad, but all the more reason to make the PA degree a clinical doctorate. Thanks for the correction.

 

Sent from my KFAPWI using Tapatalk

 

 

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BTW, this would also help with the PA name change issue which may never get done. The doctorate name tag might read something like DPAS-C, or DPA-C. When someone asks: "What is a DPA-C?", responding that you have a clinical doctorate as a PA which used to be called a Physician Assistant, though somewhat complicated, certainly engenders more respect, and MDs would have no real standing to object to the title, though they may not like it.

 

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Guest Paula

Two resolutions are being put forth at the annual AAPA conference:

 

2015-B-10 Fl: Physician Associate or Physician Assistant as the Title of the PA Profession.  (PA could chose which one they want to use).

 

2015-B-12-AFPPA:  Clinical Doctorate for PAs. (PA programs would confer a clinical doctorate based on the current number of credits required now to achieve Master's degree). 

 

You can read about them on the AAPA website.  Look under HOD. You have to pick around to find the resolutions.  Several other interesting ones are there too. 

 

Contact your state chapter chief delegate and ask them to support the resolutions.   If passed it becomes an AAPA endorsed (passed by HOD) policy.

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NPs seem to have a strategic vision to unyoke themselves from physicians and overcome obstacles both national and state to practice. There are perceived and real restrictions for NPs when collaborating with physicians dependent upon local, regional and state statutes.

The constant refrain is to expand primary care to the population. This is a point no one can argue against. They understand that the perception of the public is that a doctorate is readily understood as an endpoint with authoritative oomph. NPs also have a strong lobby to promote nursing and nursing practice.

 

The PA profession needs to catch up to this while not only striking a balance with physicians but also continuing to educate the public. There needs to be a strategic plan to promote the profession, remove obstacles and not lose out to similar professions due to their forward thinking and action.

 

There are a certain subset of PAs whom want to pursue further professional goals. The masters degree was thought to be the terminal degree to enable PAs to be on the same playing field. Except the playing field is shifting and there need to be players whom can participate. So a clear avenue has to be established to provide the opportunity.

 

The majority of the profession went from the late 60s to early 2000s with dispensation of certificates and bachelors to graduates. Nearly 40 years of these degrees being the terminal point. Over a decade later, the masters is clearly the terminal degree both declared and awarded. Will the masters follow the same time path as before? Will it take another 30 years to move to the next step? Or will this be condensed due to external factors and pressures? I think you will find that for those at the end of their careers whom are focused on successfully ending their working life, that they would be negative towards moving further down the degree spectrum. Also a majority of those whom are at the master's level now, motivation is damped by no clear external force coupled with significant contributions on a monthly basis to their education lender of choice.

 

But there are those whom do want to make that next step and those whom advancement or lateral movement to advance is dependent upon continuing. There should be a doctorate available for PAs in three areas: clinical, academic and healthcare administration. Currently there are few options and the promise of one program just beginning that address the need. There is a clinical doctorate but it is restricted to a branch of the military. Will these programs expand and satisfy goals that need to be reached by both the individuals and the profession as a whole? What will be the contributing factors that make these an established reality?

 

Place the PA profession in this perspective. Physicians and nurses have been around for centuries, PAs for mere decades. If one is a PA that is happy with the status quo, there wont be much support to make the next move. Conversely those whom want the next move to happen are in the minority. This is where leadership is interjected. Strategic vision to guide to the next decade and the next century. These opportunities are now. Who is going to shape our future, ourselves or others?

 

G Brothers PA-C

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If the PA profession lets others shape our future then we are a sad bunch of assistants. 

 

If the PA profession decides to shape our future then we will be a force to be reckoned with (after we herd all the stray cats together to meow as one). 

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One of my best friends is a DPT. He never refers to himself as "Dr." PT, as he thinks it is pretentious and misleading. And I agree. Maybe I'm old school but I think the title "doctor" should be reserved for physicians ONLY in the clinical setting and doctorate-level academics. I think it's fine that they have a terminal degree with a "D" in it; as long as the public and their profession recognizes their scope is musculoskeletal rehabilitation. They do not prescribe, they do not diagnose or treat internal medicine problems, etc.

 

As far as the PA degree creep; it may happen but it's really a bit of an oxymoron the way our title is today. A doctor of physician assistant studies??? WTF does that even mean...

 

One thing at a time. I think there is absolutely no reason for a doctorate-level education (which needs to be defined and substantiated) until we can change our title to reflect the times. And again, it begs the question---are we just trying to take the back door into being physicians?? MD/DO is THE terminal medical degree.

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Hi I'm the Doctor PA sounds ******* dumb.  - can we please just move on and stop rehashing this

One of my best friends is a DPT. He never refers to himself as "Dr." PT, as he thinks it is pretentious and misleading. And I agree. Maybe I'm old school but I think the title "doctor" should be reserved for physicians ONLY in the clinical setting and doctorate-level academics. I think it's fine that they have a terminal degree with a "D" in it; as long as the public and their profession recognizes their scope is musculoskeletal rehabilitation. They do not prescribe, they do not diagnose or treat internal medicine problems, etc.

 

As far as the PA degree creep; it may happen but it's really a bit of an oxymoron the way our title is today. A doctor of physician assistant studies??? WTF does that even mean...

 

One thing at a time. I think there is absolutely no reason for a doctorate-level education (which needs to be defined and substantiated) until we can change our title to reflect the times. And again, it begs the question---are we just trying to take the back door into being physicians?? MD/DO is THE terminal medical degree.

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A patient today asked me "What does PA stand for? Pain in the A$$?"   (HAHAHAHAH, we laughed, I never did tell him what it stands for).

 

It makes me wonder if that is what  AAPA secretly calls us rabble rousers?????

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A patient today asked me "What does PA stand for? Pain in the A$$?"   (HAHAHAHAH, we laughed, I never did tell him what it stands for).

 

It makes me wonder if that is what  AAPA secretly calls us rabble rousers?????

P5YdboM.gif and to answer your 2nd question ukYrAbe.gif they probably do behind our backs

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Until Bruce Banner's post there was nothing in this thread that suggested PAs with a clinical doctorate should, or even would want to, be called "Doctor." That isn't the point of a doctorate for the PA profession any more than it is for PTs, PTs or NPs. There may be a few megalomaniacs with an inferiority complex who are looking for that but, for most professional advanced practice providers, it's about scope of practice, independence, and direct patient access as well, perhaps, as an increased level of respect or recognition for their level of education and training.

 

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Here's my thing: I'm just a PA-S, and I'm not trying to be a physician, I want to be a PA. I'm not trying to be Doctor Rocketpropelled, PA-C, but I think we're fooling ourselves when we pitch that our master's degrees aren't at least close in equivalence to clinical doctorates elsewhere. I think when most folks think of a master's, they think of a 30-60 hour program.

 

My PA program is 139 credit hours long, and at the end I'll have another master's degree.

 

My wife is a tenured associate professor in her field, holds a PhD, and she's completely floored that for 130+ credit hours, institutions only grant a master's. Her entire master's degree plus doctorate were fewer hours than an MMS. (Of course, she gets to be called "doctor" everywhere but a clinical setting.)

 

That said, I don't think it's insanity that we should develop a way to actually earn the level of education we are sitting for -- seems like in the rest of the academic world, if you earn 120+ credit hours in programs after a bachelor's degree, that's called a doctorate.

 

I quote the classic Tommy Boy:

Tommy: "You know, a lot of people go to college for seven years."

Richard: "I know. They're called 'doctors.'"

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The number of credits earned by an Masters-level PA program easily achieves the requirement for a professional doctorate. A professional doctorate is not the same as a PhD but is akin to DPT, DNP, DAud, etc. The term "Doctor of Physician Assistant Practice" or similar strikes fear into the heart of someone keen on grammar. My suggested term is Doctor of Medical Practice (DMP). This makes it clear that it is not an MD but is a doctorate of practicing medicine.

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Guest Paula

2015-B-12-AFPPA:  Clinical Doctorate for PAs. (PA programs would confer a clinical doctorate based on the current number of credits required now to achieve Master's degree). 

 

This is why the AFPPA is putting forth the resolution to change the Master's PA programs to Doctorate level.  We already put in the credits so why not confer the Doctorate of Medical Science degree for PAs?  (I like DMS too and agree that Doctorate of PA studies is not the right degree title, but then neither is Master's of PA studies....after all we do not study PAs, we study medicine).

 

 

Who thought of these degree titles anyway?????? And what was the thinking process??  I've never understood the MPAS degree.  Why not MMSc?  Master of Medical Science?  I am aware that one of the Michigan programs calls their PA BS degree, Bachelor of Science in Medicine.  This is the most appropriate degree title.  Master of Science in Medicine is ok too.   

 

Ask you delegates to the AAPA conference to support AFPPAs resolution. 

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^ I agree with you on principle Paula, but don't you think Doctor of Medical Science degree is a bit pretentious? Especially for a Physician ASSISTANT? I just think our title needs to rectified before we go around calling ourselves (and it wont even need to be spoken) doctors of doctor assisting.

 

Patients and the public are confused at baseline as to WTF a PA is without throwing in an arbitrary 'doctorate' degree in there. "So wait a minute this guy/gal is a doctor? Or a PA...." Also I'm sure the MD side of the profession will have a field day with that.

 

And this also begs the question: do current PAs get grandfathered in to a DMS? Or do we have to shell out $30k for an ala carte doctorate supplement...

 

My prediction is schools will start awarding this degree within the next 3 years, with tuition increases to match. 

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^ I agree with you on principle Paula, but don't you think Doctor of Medical Science degree is a bit pretentious? Especially for a Physician ASSISTANT? I just think our title needs to rectified before we go around calling ourselves (and it wont even need to be spoken) doctors of doctor assisting.

 

Patients and the public are confused at baseline as to WTF a PA is without throwing in an arbitrary 'doctorate' degree in there. "So wait a minute this guy/gal is a doctor? Or a PA...." Also I'm sure the MD side of the profession will have a field day with that.

 

And this also begs the question: do current PAs get grandfathered in to a DMS? Or do we have to shell out $30k for an ala carte doctorate supplement...

 

My prediction is schools will start awarding this degree within the next 3 years, with tuition increases to match. 

 

Agree.  Title first rectified to possibly Physician Associate or better yet, Medical Practitioner.  The  degree then becomes Doctorate of Health Science - Medical Practitioner.  Would the AMA and physicians groups get their undies tied up in knots over this?

 

From now on I will just call myself a Pain in the A$$ PA.  

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Why would there be a tuition increase if the curriculum remains the same? Because they can? I wonder about the grandfathering too. Seems that they should be if the whole premise is based on current units/curriculum.

 

Grandfathering in? No way. Do you know what it takes to get a new degree approved at an academic institutiuon? A department just does not decide to offer something on their own.

 

A current master's level program would have to undergo some changes - substantial changes in some places - before the institutiuon would authorize a change.

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