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Doctoral studies for PAs


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Getting an doctoratefor the door purpose of being called "Doctor" seems a bit ridiculous. The benefits of having a doctorate are much more than that. The doors that open makes it worth it. Especially if you desire to work in academia

Nope - it's just degree inflation / degree creep.  You would get the same education from the very same professors - but the program would be filled with more arbitrary and meaningless busy work to justify its own existence.  And as far as academia, those who can't do teach.  

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Why would there be a tuition increase if the curriculum remains the same? Because they can? 

 

Absolutely. They'll fluff it up with busywork and some 'diversity' or 'health promotion' practicum project and call it a doctorate.

 

The groundwork has already been laid----it's called DNP. (definitely not physicians)

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I would rather have a master of science in medicine than in physician assistant studies.  I think the physicians (or whomever) blocked tying the PA profession more closely to the medical model were shortsighted.  Personally, I would rather see better bridge programs to MD/DO, because if I want to uplevel my medical career, I would want to BE a doctor.  Right now, it's a ridiculous, go-back-to-square-one approach, and if the MD/DO schools want to keep it that way, then the push does become for more PA autonomy and a separate profession rather than a demi-profession.  As much as the PAs minted in the last 5 years haven't had near the HCE that the original PAs had, they've also had a boatload more academic preparation and accomplishment.  We're attracting people who 10 years ago would have clearly been premed, and no matter how much I might advise the young, bright, unattached students who SHOULD be able to survive medical school and residency to do just that... they're filling our schools more every year.  In 5-10 years of practice, they will have the scientific rigor that many of their predecessors did not, as well as the experience to be better clinicians than many of their so-called supervisors. We're certainly a better pool of folks from which to draw future MD/DOs than IMG's: we know the system, speak the language, and will have a public track record of clinical accomplishment.

 

So we're at a crossroads and a crisis: Are we doctors' trusted helpers, or are we something else entirely?  If the former, we need bridge programs to tie our professions that much more closely together and make it clear that MD/DO is the next logical step for PAs who want to go beyond masters' level.  If the latter, we need our own doctorate and path to independent practice as PAs.

 

I vote the former, but I can clearly see why many PAs prefer the latter.

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I would rather have a master of science in medicine than in physician assistant studies. I think the physicians (or whomever) blocked tying the PA profession more closely to the medical model were shortsighted. Personally, I would rather see better bridge programs to MD/DO, because if I want to uplevel my medical career, I would want to BE a doctor. Right now, it's a ridiculous, go-back-to-square-one approach, and if the MD/DO schools want to keep it that way, then the push does become for more PA autonomy and a separate profession rather than a demi-profession. As much as the PAs minted in the last 5 years haven't had near the HCE that the original PAs had, they've also had a boatload more academic preparation and accomplishment. We're attracting people who 10 years ago would have clearly been premed, and no matter how much I might advise the young, bright, unattached students who SHOULD be able to survive medical school and residency to do just that... they're filling our schools more every year. In 5-10 years of practice, they will have the scientific rigor that many of their predecessors did not, as well as the experience to be better clinicians than many of their so-called supervisors. We're certainly a better pool of folks from which to draw future MD/DOs than IMG's: we know the system, speak the language, and will have a public track record of clinical accomplishment.

 

So we're at a crossroads and a crisis: Are we doctors' trusted helpers, or are we something else entirely? If the former, we need bridge programs to tie our professions that much more closely together and make it clear that MD/DO is the next logical step for PAs who want to go beyond masters' level. If the latter, we need our own doctorate and path to independent practice as PAs.

 

I vote the former, but I can clearly see why many PAs prefer the latter.

The problem is we want to tie our professions, bit this is only one sided. MDs/DOs can care less which is why it will never happen unless we get motivated docs that were previous PAs . Years away.
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I'm about to start PA school in January. I (ignorantly) didn't realize NP has already been converted to the doctorate level now. This makes me a little nervous... I don't care at all about titles, just the ability to compete for jobs and opportunities (and salaries).

 

Realistically, how would the PA profession transition into the doctoral level? Some kind of bridge program? I wouldn't necessarily mind having to take more classes, if there were flexible options like part time and online education...

 

Obtaining a master's degree as opposed to a doctoral degree never concerned me before... but doesn't that hurt PAs' ability to compete with NPs for jobs?

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The DNP is not as big a threat to PA. In fact NPs are worried about how it threatens them. Many NP's making the same salary as PA's are now being pushed into spending 15+k in order to obtain a DNP. As another poster described the coursework of these programs is at times meaningless. However, it does not have to be meaningless. Hopefully DNP and similar programs for PAs continue to improve. 

 

I think a clinical doctoral degree is fine for PAs who need that credential to move up in academics and health management. The lynchburg program will be real interesting. The doctoral degree can provide some advanced basic sciences, clinical research, and leadership/health policy coursework. The few PA schools which offer the doctoral can really do some meaningful PA research and work as they build faculties to provide this education. I HOPE this type of doctoral degree takes into account the RIGOROUS work of PA school and only requires a few courses and these project. Many 21 credits ? I would like to see early programs in person and not distance as well. Maybe one of the NY schools will start to think about this.  

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The DNP is not as big a threat to PA. In fact NPs are worried about how it threatens them. Many NP's making the same salary as PA's are now being pushed into spending 15+k in order to obtain a DNP. As another poster described the coursework of these programs is at times meaningless. However, it does not have to be meaningless. Hopefully DNP and similar programs for PAs continue to improve.

 

I think a clinical doctoral degree is fine for PAs who need that credential to move up in academics and health management. The lynchburg program will be real interesting. The doctoral degree can provide some advanced basic sciences, clinical research, and leadership/health policy coursework. The few PA schools which offer the doctoral can really do some meaningful PA research and work as they build faculties to provide this education. I HOPE this type of doctoral degree takes into account the RIGOROUS work of PA school and only requires a few courses and these project. Many 21 credits ? I would like to see early programs in person and not distance as well. Maybe one of the NY schools will start to think about this.

If the early programs are not distance education how will seasoned PAs who are working achieve the degree? You mean short on campus seminars? Like one week a year?
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the thing that everyone is missing is the POLITICIANS

 

they understand why a masters level clinician would need to be DEPENDENT while a DNP can and should be independent

 

I hate to make it so simple, but in many ways it is.... lead, follow, or get run over......

 

I prefer to at least follow instead of getting run over.......

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Agree with ventana

 

Yea I am thinking a hybrid program. Distance component is fine. Immersion weeks built into curriculum. I imagine a part time schedule would take 3 years. Many an biannual visit ?

you are basically describing an academic DHSc program; 3-4 years in length, required campus time every year for a week or so, a significant research project, core coursework in stats, research, epidemiology, ethics, health policy, leadership, conflict resolution, etc. I don't think aapa will ever buy into tying something like this to the conference.

If we are talking about a clinical doctorate, my vote would be to tie it to a postgrad residency, like the army/baylor program has done.

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you are basically describing an academic DHSc program; 3-4 years in length, required campus time every year for a week or so, a significant research project, core coursework in stats, research, epidemiology, ethics, health policy, leadership, conflict resolution, etc. I don't think aapa will ever buy into tying something like this to the conference.

If we are talking about a clinical doctorate, my vote would be to tie it to a postgrad residency, like the army/baylor program has done.

I agree. What SocialMed has described already exists. I'm hoping for something that takes into account the # of units already completed in PA school. Something like the MMS which transfers some credits from your PA curriculum and requires I think 4 additional classes. I like the idea of having it attached to a residency/fellowship.
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I have always considered the DHSc the doctorate for PA's. But it does not exactly do what ventana describes for the profession. Additionally I am uncertain if the DHSc degree has a course specifically focused on PA workforce/education/policy issues. I am sure it is a component but perhaps not the focus. 

 

I do not like the idea of attaching a residency or fellowship to the doctorate. UNLESS it is all done in house. Who teaches it ? How do you evaluate its success ? What happens do I Identify a SP at my clinic where I live to manage the residency ? Who pays that preceptor to do a goods job ? Who knows if that person is even qualified to provide a formal education experience. I might know more than that person. Is the degree program going to vet every preceptor and how do they do that ?  There are several residency programs that provide a sub par experience for Pas 

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I have always considered the DHSc the doctorate for PA's. But it does not exactly do what ventana describes for the profession. Additionally I am uncertain if the DHSc degree has a course specifically focused on PA workforce/education/policy issues. I am sure it is a component but perhaps not the focus. 

 

I do not like the idea of attaching a residency or fellowship to the doctorate. UNLESS it is all done in house. Who teaches it ? How do you evaluate its success ? What happens do I Identify a SP at my clinic where I live to manage the residency ? Who pays that preceptor to do a goods job ? Who knows if that person is even qualified to provide a formal education experience. I might know more than that person. Is the degree program going to vet every preceptor and how do they do that ?  There are several residency programs that provide a sub par experience for Pas 

the doctoral residency option in my mind would require a full time commitment at an academic medical ctr.

you can't really do a clinical program part time while working full time and expect a quality result in my opinion. The DPAM postgrad option for example is full time. 

I think a DPAS makes no sense just like an MPAS makes no sense. call it what it is : MMS, DMS. no one wants a doctorate in assisting. ATSU had an option for their DHSc in "adv pa studies". I think they dropped it a few years ago and retained global health, education, health policy and leadershjip, etc. 

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I don't understand why so many people want to make the clinical doctorate A LOT MORE WORK

 

When the Allied health careers are commonly a 5 years direct entry program - just like PA

 

We are giving the orders that the allied health field follows, we are proving the same gold standard care as our physician counter parts, nurses have already blazed the way with the DNP degree, along with PT/OT/Audilogy/PsychD/PharmD and others

 

it is not about ADDING onto the current PA education and expense, but instead just providing the correct degree for the work done.

 

 

A 18 yr old HS grad that attends PT school for 5 years gets ONLY a clinical doctorate - DPT - why on earth should PA be any different?  and certainly not lower degree credential

 

Also, Physicians retain the "physician" nomenclature but they do not own Doctor outside their specialty.  Society in the past has said Doctor = physician BUT this is clearly already changed with so many other "doctors" in the house.....

 

We should likely have a single capstone research project or paper on top of the current curriculum and be awarded a Doctorate of Clinical Medicine or some other CLINICAL doctorate - not PhD, no Medical Doctorate......   

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It is going to be a bit more work for a few reasons ... in my mind a doctorate credential expertise and some level of research capability and PA education does not necessarily afford the student that. Obviously the traditional PhD vs a DNP is VERY different in terms of what research skills it provides. Second, and less important a reason, a University is not going to set up a degree with administrative support, credentialing, and faculty for a 3 course part time cheapo option. Yes I agree the PA degree should count for substantial credits towards this degree and it should be unlike other doctoral programs in terms of length.

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