dezhorst Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Do any PAs belong to a union? What would you say are the pros/cons? Is it worth it and what good do unions do for us... Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LKPAC Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 No. Unions are not for professionals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGoLong Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 LKPAC, Kind of a sweeping generalization, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Febrifuge Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I'm in a union. And I'm glad. I'm plenty professional, but I feel that for me to turn up my nose at the union for being, what? Too blue collar? ...would be a big mistake. My dues are no higher than the payroll deduction for much more questionably-valuable benefits I had when I was working in corporate Ameria. My hourly wage is set by contract, and I know I'm paid exactly what all the other PAs are, who do the same urgent care work. I know if I get stuck an extra 75 minutes because of a late arrival and a stack of notes I have to do, then by Grabthar's Hammer I am going to get paid for those 75 minutes. I know if my SP eats some bad berries on a trip to the Amazon and decides to abruptly quit, I won't be swinging in the wind because there are rules and procedures in place to protect my status as an employee in good standing. I know if ever there's a reason that good standing is ever in jeopardy, any meeting I have to sit in with management I can request someone from the union to sit with me. I'm starting to get involved with Occupational and Environmental Medicine, so I'm gaining another perspective on the ways in which employers can have huge effects on the quality of workers' lives, not just in terms of how much they pay, but in terms of the ways in which the place you spend 1/3 of your life (or more) influences how healthy you can possibly be, and what things have the potential to hurt your health. Sure, unions have some problems. More than a few, actually. But looking at the way Wal-Mart does business, I am very sure that things could be worse, and one of the big reasons they're not is because of unions. Think of it this way: unions are one more way that nurses have their stuff together in ways that we often don't. Why not be in one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LKPAC Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 The truth is sometimes sweeping. We are professionals, we don't unionize, we don't strike. If you want to be treated like a professional, act like one. If you want to join a union, there are trades for that. If anyone has a compelling argument on the other side, I'm listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalPalm Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 The truth is sometimes sweeping. We are professionals, we don't unionize, we don't strike. If you want to be treated like a professional, act like one. If you want to join a union, there are trades for that. If anyone has a compelling argument on the other side, I'm listening. 1199SEIU provided invaluable research and analytical support when we were negotiating for improvements with management. The 1199SEIU staff compiled compensation data for physician assistants across the state, which helped us advocate for higher wages and benefits. 1199SEIU is the best choice for healthcare professionals.” DeWitt Scott, Physician Assistant, Beth Israel Medical Center, New York http://www.join1199seiu.org/raises-benefits/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGoLong Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 No way is anyone going to change your mind so I'm not going to try. I do suggest that you be careful thinking that your every sweeping thought is the truth about anything; it can be an awkward way to go through life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalPalm Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 No. Unions are not for professionals. "Physician Assistants Group of New York (PAGNY) workers at Jacobi Medical Center and North Central Bronx Hospital voted overwhelmingly in favor of uniting in 1199SEIU on September 27. The 107 physician assistants say they voted for a voice to ensure the highest quality patient care, and to achieve the higher standards of pay and benefits that their co-workers in 1199 have won. They are joining PAGNY PAs who are already 1199 members at Coney Island Hospital, Lincoln Hospital, and Harlem Hospital. "About five years ago, we tried forming our union and we weren't successful," Charles Odwin, a physician assistant of 15 years at North Central Bronx Hospital said, "but years of no salary increases and high turnover led us to realize that we could only win the same salary increases and benefits that our PAGNY coworkers at other hospitals have if we joined together." - See more at: http://www.1199seiu.org/bronx_hospital_physician_assistants_vote_by_2_to_1_to_join_1199seiu#sthash.VR0sgHSU.dpuf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Febrifuge Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Unionizing isn't some aggressive, anti-employer move (and being a good 'company man' doesn't make anyone more professional anyway. If what is good for the group is 100% aligned with what's good for you, you may be the owner of the practice. Congratulations!). It's a way to take a bunch of people in a job category, and use their collective influence, collectively. How is this in any way not something a professional would want? I think I get it: it's "professional" of us when we use the AAPA salary survey, online communities like this one, and in-person networking to try and figure out what we're worth, and use that knowledge in salary negotiations when we start a new position. We tell new grads not to "denegrate the profession" by accepting low-ball offers. We make tut-tut noises when some clinic puts out an ad that makes it clear they have no idea what we do, and who we are. But if we somehow got a few hundred or a few thousand PAs to band together as a political and economic unit, one with specific priorities and goals that were spelled out and open for review by everyone, and we used that solidarity to ensure that new grad salaries were x, and 5-yr veteran PA salaries were x+y, with y being based on a, b, and c... then that would not be professional. Whatever the heck "professional" means, in this context. As far as strikes, not every union strikes. Not everyone in a given union strikes. Being in one is not saying you will, or would. It sounds like this may be one of those "politics of identiy" issues that nobody ever changes their minds about. If I'm wrong, please let me know, and there might be more to say. In short, "unions are not for professionals" strikes me as one of the weirder things I have heard at work this week, and I've been in Urgent Care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cop to pa Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I was a cop. I was in a union. Even if we wanted to, by law we could not strike. I was, and still am, a professional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbrothers98 Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Unions or similar entities can be worthwhile for professionals when compensation, work demands and benefits are not being fully realized by employers. I am going to make a bold statement that many PAs have moved from employment by solo physicians or very small practices to large groups or large health systems. This has also happened to physicians. The PAs in their prior situation were at the mercy of a very specific entity whom could be all over the map. With the larger employer, it depends upon corporate culture which also can range. But when these employers continue to not offer raises, to enlarge patient panels, to cut benefits, to insert restrictive terms into contracts, to load further responsibilities into a schedule already overwhelmed and not pay for the extra time, they are not professional. They are just taking advantage. G Brothers PA-C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarbebe Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 1199SEIU provided invaluable research and analytical support when we were negotiating for improvements with management. The 1199SEIU staff compiled compensation data for physician assistants across the state, which helped us advocate for higher wages and benefits. 1199SEIU is the best choice for healthcare professionals.” DeWitt Scott, Physician Assistant, Beth Israel Medical Center, New York http://www.join1199seiu.org/raises-benefits/ Personally have spoken to a former chief PA and multiple former employees at the above medical system in NYC. I will say that the quote "helped us advocate for higher wages", can be misleading; it is possible they may have been higher due to union efforts, I do not have that information. A former chief PA attempted to give bonuses to higher performing PAs in the ED but was blocked by the union (this was seen as a negative for less well performing PAs). Multiple colleagues have attempted to negotiate raises, blocked by union contract with hospital system/management; they left. I know of two hospitals within this healthcare system that basically has a revolving door of PAs due to below average compensation (for this region, which is already depressed)... which is filled by new grads, gain experience and leave. As mentioned in the post above, you can fulfill your professional responsibility; it is not always reciprocated and although there is always an option to move to another state/city (it can be challenging due to personal reasons). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMPA Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 unions are a way to control the individual. professionals should not have unions control them nor set the standards for all. no two PAs are the same and should not be paid the same. unions will stunt individual growth and bind our fair profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Febrifuge Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 unions are a way to control the individual. professionals should not have unions control them nor set the standards for all. That is a very powerful assertion. What arguments, examples, or evidence do you have to give it some weight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatswain2PA Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 That is a very powerful assertion. What arguments, examples, or evidence do you have to give it some weight? Most teacher's unions? Unions have their place, and are incredibly important in keeping employers from taking advantage of employees. However, like everything in life, there must be a balance. Public sector unions are out of control in our great nation, and NOBODY should be FORCED to join a union, nor pay union dues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceBanner Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Unions are great if they do what they were intended to do---standardize compensation, benefits, workload, and protect the employee from unjust termination. Problem is they usually don't work out that way, and are subject to bureaucracy and funding problems like any other large employment entity. On a related note, I think "pay for performance" bonuses are unethical and have no place in medicine. Yes I know medicine is also a business, but this rewards expediency and the argument could be made encourages errors. It also rewards individual practice styles and not necessarily the most competent providers. Anyone can see 30 ppd if they cut corners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnedintoamartian Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Most teacher's unions? Unions have their place, and are incredibly important in keeping employers from taking advantage of employees. However, like everything in life, there must be a balance. Public sector unions are out of control in our great nation, and NOBODY should be FORCED to join a union, nor pay union dues. I would just like to step in to point out that you cannot be required to join a union but in non-right to work states you can be forced to pay an agency fee. This fee originates from unions being required to represent both members and non-members when dealing with an employer. So this is an attempt to have everyone pay for a service that the union is legally obligated to provide. The economy as a whole is certainly changing and I am unsure if increased union membership is the key to strengthening the fabled middle-class. But I feel compelled to support the right of those who work for a living to bargain in what is increasingly an employer's market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatswain2PA Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 I believe there are some jobs where you must be part of the union to hold the job. Valid point with the "representation without taxation"....but this again delves into government forcing people to act. Should we all be required to join AAPA because they supposedly represent all of us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnedintoamartian Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 I think the main difference with that analogy would be that the AAPA is not required by law to represent you when you have grievances with your employer and has no "seat at the table" when negotating the terms of your employment. Unions must still give the same legal representation (including access to legal advice) to non-members and collective-bargaining agreements that the union negotiates also apply to non-members. Of course this certainly brings up a larger question of what role the government should have in the relationship between employer and employees (including when they are organized labor) and in no way do I want to be involved in that on this forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk732 Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 After a health care union swept in and almost forced the labour board to absorb the PA's in one of the health regions here, we formed our own association which essentially acts as a union - it does the collective bargaining on our behalf and represents us as WE wish to be represented, not a group where our membership is less than one percent of the overall members - therefore not really representing us at all. The doctors in all provinces in Canada are represented by an association which is essentially the same thing. Just because we belong and pay dues doesn't give us a formal mandate to strike either - I have no real zeal to strike or anything, but I do want someone to represent us. I'm a little tired of being told my vacation and such are tied to a collective agreement I'm not party to - the provincial nurses' union - and that I have to play in the sandbox nicely with that. Our salaries here are tied to the Provincial Ministry of Health - the folks that were pioneers here are still being paid the same salary scale that was brought into play about 10 years ago...not even a cost of living increase once they hit the maximum cap. It's time to sort that out - our association is working on that as we speak, since our national association, much like AAPA, isn't there to bargain on our behalf. SK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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