AlteredBeast Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I know the question of certificate vs X degree has been asked several times. I'm wondering what other PA's out there think in terms of the Masters degree becoming a requirement to practice period. Is this happening, is it happening soon? Im in CA, where the degree is not absolutley required (yet), some job listings ask for a Masters, Ive been told some hospitals won't let you admit without one, I have no idea why. I've been able to find work without one so far. I come from a certificate program that was recently shut down, and I fear there is a large push towards the Masters requirement with no regard for the fact that we are a competency based profession. Anyhow, I'm looking into AT Still online bridge program, this is the only program I've found that will let me bridge to a Masters without having a BS or BA. Has anyone gone through this? What are everyone's thoughts on the matter, will the PA be enough or should we all play the game and get these degrees? Much thanks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Hi yes as far as I know ATSU is the only one with a Bachelor's equivalency. I finished it in 2013. I heard from the dean of the program that it might shut down in 2017 when all programs are likely going to be masters degree programs. It was very doable and if you invest in it it was beneficial. Only requirement is an AS in PA but they may waive it with experience. Give them a call. Sent from my S5 Active...Like you care... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialMedicine Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 In my opinion I would stay clear of programs that do not award a masters. I have heard the profession is moving towards this standard in accreditation. I cannot support this statement officially. And I know for a fact certain states and individual hospital/institution mention a masters requirement. While these certificate programs often have very skilled and senior faculty I would not risk that lack of masters credential for any amount of money or time saved. I know some cert programs partner with a University to award a Masters degree. That seems like a lot of redundant administrative work and I reviewed the masters coursework for one program and it seemed not all that meaningful and a bit redundant. Yes there are post grad masters programs that are decent. However, I would MUCH rather spend my post grad time doing a DHSc or MBA to propel my career than spending free time over a few years in order to maintain. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlteredBeast Posted April 27, 2015 Author Share Posted April 27, 2015 Oh, that's good to know! I didn't know it was going away soon! I'll probably sign up asap. If you don't mind , did you do the clinical or education track? The clinical hours requirements can all be met at my current job? Or are there certain procedures that need be done, central lines, intubations , etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Oh, that's good to know! I didn't know it was going away soon! I'll probably sign up asap. If you don't mind , did you do the clinical or education track? The clinical hours requirements can all be met at my current job? Or are there certain procedures that need be done, central lines, intubations , etc? I did the clinical track. Yes the 400 hrs are done at your job. Your SP will be your "preceptor" and all the classes are online but don't let that be mistaken for "easy." they have really good faculty and some are PA Giants. They expect a lot but understand you are also working full time. You just have to stay abreast of the assignments and know your deadlines for papers (usually one a week) and a big paper for medical writing class (kinda like a Capstone but you don't necessarily have to take it your last semester. I did and took it with another class which I do not recommend. I had to make up a class due to an illness earlier in the year. The staff and faculty were awesome during that time too. They really want you to succeed. All in all it was worth the 15k seeing as I did not have to do a Bachelor's. Let me know if u need any further info. Sent from my S5 Active...Like you care... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LKPAC Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 how expensive is the ATSU program? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtlesrule Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 http://www.atsu.edu/advanced-physician-assistant-degree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I think it went up since I went but I paid about 15k...Maybe 13k.... Sent from my S5 Active...Like you care... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vitaliyjdt Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 There has to be other program other then AT Still, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted September 18, 2015 Administrator Share Posted September 18, 2015 There has to be other program other then AT Still, right? Why would there be? The pool of PAs without masters degrees is shrinking every year, both in absolute numbers and relative percentages as some PAs retire, some get masters after the fact, and fewer new PAs are graduated without a masters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siddhartha Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 If I were going in to the profession now, I'd absolutely insist that the program I attended award a Master's degree. For now, it is a bit of "future-proofing," but there are hospitals/employers who require a Master's now. I know that a top job I left due to relocation wouldn't hire me back without a Master's. This changed in the time I was working there. Having a Master's levels the playing field for you against all other job applicants right now. It's like selling a house-you want there to be no questions you have to answer about the quality of the house. If there are spots in the paint job, or gaps in your educational background, you have to answer those questions which you wouldn't have to otherwise. In the future, our profession may well move on to a doctorate degree. As much as it wouldn't change my practice, if it took hold, you'll be sure that I'd look into ways to secure that degree as well. In the end, I love being a PA, and want to maintain my marketability. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterallsummer Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 There are very few programs like this left. The few that do have it may have an online option to "complete" the MS. It's good for the profession, IMHO. I don't personally take issue with grandfathering in those with older degrees. Where I practice, most jobs require the MS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMSGuy1982 Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 What about the future veterans that get out of the military and have a hard time starting toward a masters degree program? Sounds like a long trek after X amount of service. There has been some pushback in my program for that reason. After all, it is the root of the profession. I for one am thankful there are a few left, including the program I am in currently. If not for the Bachelors option, I might not have had the opportunity to be where I am today. There has been talk about the creation of a PA studies track that involves getting an undergrad in PA studies then moving to the masters level. I will definitely pursue my MS degree after graduation as I am a fan of higher education but it didn't seem like much of a difference in my program where the bachelors and masters curriculum are a mirror image (minus the capstone project of course) of each other. Well, and the 20k difference in cost. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted September 20, 2015 Administrator Share Posted September 20, 2015 Yep, it's not how the profession started, but that train has left the station. MEDEX rocks on so many levels, but it does its students a disservice by graduating bachelor's degree PAs. Better to award both a BS and MS, like some other PNW programs do... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check 2 Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 I do not agree with HAVING to have a Masters. 25 yrs in and I know what I am doing and went to school in Texas and got a Bach Science and passed NCCPA. We were told that was all that matters -- keeping NCCPA and knowing your stuff. I cannot afford a masters AND my kids' basic college education. Not that I wouldn't want to pursue something useful educationally -- I just can't see financing $10K or more to get letters behind my name that won't affect my income, standing, independence or years of experience. I have not seen any jobs in WA requiring a Masters -- yet -- except teaching. I would put my 25 yrs up against anyone out 1 yr with a Masters anyday. Honestly, can anyone seriously tell me how a Masters PA is any more CLINICALLY impressive than a bachelors??? the rotations are the same, the didactic is the same. I didn't do posters and whatever Capstone is - my education was 27 months of solid clinical goodness. Proving you can go to school doesn't prove you can take care of a patient in my opinion. My very old 2 cents.... 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMSGuy1982 Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Yep, it's not how the profession started, but that train has left the station. MEDEX rocks on so many levels, but it does its students a disservice by graduating bachelor's degree PAs. Better to award both a BS and MS, like some other PNW programs do... Gosh, could you elaborate a little on why it's a disservice? I guess it couldn't be because of the curriculum since they are the same. I don't feel that I am at all as a bachelors student. MEDEX has been graduating bachelors students for quite some time. They must be doing something right.. What other PNW schools are you refering to? OSHU? Heritage? The big picture- (perhaps i'm not jaded enough yet, you'd think 13 years in EMS would have..) I'll add my little plug to the folks in Alaska that provide medical care to the villages up north. A lot of them are sent by their village to get their training as a PA and then return. How is making the jump to a masters only level not doing a disservice to them? I understand that the train has "left the station" kinda sad really. I imagine the profession is in the crosshairs of every academic institution to be their next big cash cow. What a better way to maximize the profits by requiring a masters. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cop to pa Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Www.arc-pa.org/documents/Degree%20issue10.2011fnl.pdf The accrediting authority on high has decreed all new students entering in 2020 will be entering a masters program. Any program as of 1 Jan, 2021 not granting a masters lose their accreditation. Is this a political decision? I believe it is in response to the trend of degree creep in medicine these days (DPT, DNP, D pick some letters) and has no bearing on the clinical relevance of PAs holding anything other than a masters (certificate, associates, bachelors, etc.). It is what it is. I don't feel it diminishes the quality of PAs currently practicing who carry a certificate or bachelors degree. However, in my undergrad program for a few courses was a certificate PA going back to get her bachelors, as her job opportunities were drying up without it. Same situation will probably apply to bachelors PAs in the next 20 years. As to EMSGuy1982, I did 8 years. Started back to school in January, 2013 and will graduate with my bachelors this December. Having burned through 20 months of my GI bill by graduation, I can attest that it sucks having to jump through the hoops and disagree with the decision of several programs that, while the HCE counts, the credits from military training may not. That being said, I'll have a bachelors degree. And, having to take the blasted pre-reqs makes me feel better prepared for the didactics of PA school. Still wish there was a middle ground, though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siddhartha Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Nobody is claiming a Master's means that you are a "better" PA than someone with a bachelor's degree, or certificate. I guarantee I am better at taking endoscopic vein than 99% of the MDs that I've operated with-their MD degree didn't make them automatically better than I am. Likewise, there are plenty of anesthesia techs (many without a bachelor's) that are far, far better than I am at placing lines. The degree is the key that opens the door to professional practice. Just like getting your driver's license doesn't make you instantly a great (or even safe) driver (experience teaches that) the degree is simply a notch by which you are evaluated to have a certain level of education. If our profession moves towards a doctorate (of which I am in favor, simply because our competition does just this) then I will do it. Not because it will change my clinical practice in any way, but will keep me competitive with other "mid-levels." (I hate that term!) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted September 20, 2015 Administrator Share Posted September 20, 2015 Gosh, could you elaborate a little on why it's a disservice? It's a disservice to start equally qualified clinicians with inferior credentials, that in all likelihood they will have to go back to school to get the credential later, at an inflated cost. I admire those who can work in the bush (did you know I actually am Alaskan?), but if I did that and got fed up with it, I wouldn't want to be limited to ONLY there because nowhere in the Lower 48 would accept me with only a bachelors. We're certainly not there yet, but things are headed that direction, and graduating new PAs with bachelors' degrees puts them at a competitive disadvantage solely because of the academic credential awarded. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmood Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 I'm two years out from school. When I was looking for jobs I would have been at a serious disadvantage without the Masters. I know there are a lot of places out there that will take a PA without one, but I don't see the sense in restricting yourself from the get-go if you can help it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will352ns Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 What about the future veterans that get out of the military and have a hard time starting toward a masters degree program? Sounds like a long trek after X amount of service. There has been some pushback in my program for that reason. After all, it is the root of the profession. I for one am thankful there are a few left, including the program I am in currently. If not for the Bachelors option, I might not have had the opportunity to be where I am today. There has been talk about the creation of a PA studies track that involves getting an undergrad in PA studies then moving to the masters level. I will definitely pursue my MS degree after graduation as I am a fan of higher education but it didn't seem like much of a difference in my program where the bachelors and masters curriculum are a mirror image (minus the capstone project of course) of each other. Well, and the 20k difference in cost. I dunno if being in the military is that much of a disadvantage any more. With programs like TA, Post 911, and distance learning it isn't really that hard to complete a Bachelors anymore. There are some who are at a greater disadvantage due to frequency and duty station (OS) but overall, most who are motivated can get it done with minimal cost. And rack up some of the best HCE if they are medics. Huge advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtuous woman Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 On 9/20/2015 at 10:46 AM, siddhartha said: If our profession moves towards a doctorate (of which I am in favor, simply because our competition does just this) then I will do it. Not because it will change my clinical practice in any way, but will keep me competitive with other "mid-levels." (I hate that term!) I hate that Master's degrees are required, especially considering that PAs with certificates/associate's/bachelor's degrees have to pass the same PANCE as any other PAs. The main difference is that they probably save 2/3 to 3/4 the cost of tuition. I certainly hope that they don't begin requiring doctorate degrees for PAs. If a PA has to jump through that big of a hoop plus pay even more in tuition just to still not be an independent practitioner, he/she may as well go to medical school. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas5814 Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 On 9/20/2015 at 12:11 AM, Reality Check 2 said: Honestly, can anyone seriously tell me how a Masters PA is any more CLINICALLY impressive than a bachelors??? Nope. I can tell you that bean counters, administrators, and politicians put great stock in degrees and certifications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAAdmission Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 Holy zombie thread! 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cideous Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 I would NEVER go to anything less then a masters program nowadays. Never. I went so long ago that I had to get a BS at the time, but years ago I saw the handwriting on the wall, so I went back to the University of Nebraska and got my bridge MPAS. I can't imagine trying to find a job right now as a new grad with only a bachelors. No way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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