didymus Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 didymus, I assume your MPH exams are proctored in some fashion. That is the only comment I think your post was missing. Please address.. I want to address your question and also some of the expressed concerns re: potential for cheating. Some of my exams are proctored and some aren't. I have taken online courses through community colleges, 4-year state universities, and now with an MPH at a top private university. The fact is, what is offered at the level of a place like GW (and I can imagine the same with an institution like Yale), is that it is technically possible to cheat during an exam, but it is damn near impossible. Comparing the content of the exams from CC and the state university, it was common for the questions on the tests to just be recycled. I've had open book and note quizzes and tests at these schools for my online classes, and I've found a high percentage of the questions to be Googleable, with the results showing the same questions verbatim with the answers. My GW exams are ridiculously difficult. And these professors who write these exams are *not* pulling questions from some online resource somewhere. They write them themselves; the questions and the answes are unique to that test and change with each subsequent administration of that exam. Secondly, we aren't given enough time to go searching through our textbooks, power points, or Google looking for answes. In a previous post I mentioned a 4-hour long Biostats final I had last week. Well, I didn't even finish it! It wasn't like I had 4 hours for 20 questions or something. I had 100 questions and had to show my work on everything to receive credit. 2.5 mins a question is not enough time to cheat. Period. Can't and wont happen. Either you know it or your don't, and it just won't pay off to spend 3 minutes looking up info to try and gain an edge on a complex SAS output on an two-way analysis of co-variance table, while having to calculate p values and z-statistics by hand. I will have wasted almost 20% of my time for the next question looking up an answer to this one. The returns are diminishing at that point. With our proctored exams, our webcams are on and the professors watch us live. Could someone have an open laptop sitting behind their camera? Could they be looking up stuff on their smart phones? Sure they could. But our professors are not stupid, and wandering eyes will eventually catch their attention. But again, the exams I have at GW are just too long for anyone to actually spend time looking up answers. We almost always have less than 3 mins per question, and most times it is in the 2 mins or less category. I think with cohorts including students from all over the country that no one really has an outside relationship with, it would be a true challenge to find someone willing to give a stranger an edge on an exam, or to somehow else help another student cheat. Why in the world would they? I honestly can't imagine that happening. Cheating happens everywhere and is a constant source of consternation for faculty and administrators. But there is no reason to think it would happen more often with an online program. Finally, it's not like the University of Phoenix Online is opening a PA program. This is YALE we're talking about here. Even online, this program will be rigorous, and I don't give a damn about how much money is involved with it. Yale is still an institution that values its reputation very highly, and if they were worried about churning out subpar graduates, I feel fairly confident they wouldn't offer the program. Yale is still a name that carries substantial weight in the academic and professional world across disciplines. They aren't about to tarnish their reputation to make an extra buck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taotaox1 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I've been staying out of this thread so far, but at some small risk of revealing my identity (to like 3 or 4 people who would possibly have reason to read this), I worked for 7 years for the company that became Capella University, before chucking it all to double my student loans and pursue my medical career. So I've had some heady discussions with PhD type administrators about distance education, adult learning, and such. I've also dealt with the business side of that industry. One thing that really struck me about PA school, once I got there, was that even accounting for the laptops and the PowerPoint (ohh, the endless PowerPointA!) it was very much a traditional, lecture-style, heavy pedagogical style of teaching and learning. Especially so for us PAs; the MD students at the affiliated school on campus apparently could attend lectures or not, except for certain mandatory ones. If they wanted to study at home or in the library, and show up to take tests, they could. Meanwhile, we would get a phone call by 10am on any day we weren't in class as usual (often sitting in unofficially "assigned" seats, to keep things simple) at the beginning of the day. It felt very much like attending Harvard or Yale or any state school medical program probably would have... 100 years previous. It struck me as strange, and frightening, and kind of funny, that my ability to function as a clinician would on some level depend on my ability to recall and synthesize information that at one point in time, somebody at the front of the room had read to me, while I sat in an auditorium seat and typed my notes. For the record, that is a very efficient way to teach, but the last 50 years of research have made it pretty clear that for a lot of people and a lot of subjects, it's actually a fairly poor way to learn. Most of my best learning happened on the train to or from school, talking through the tougher material with classmates. Failing a section of a test was never fun, but the remedial sessions where I would sit in a professor's office for half an hour and we would go back and forth about a topic was always a very effective way to lock something down and really understand it. So, "distance ed" or "online school" is a big category. If it's done intelligently, and it's well-delivered by the school and well-used by the students, I think not only test scores but actual useful retention of the info might actually be better in the online cohort than in their traditional classroom-bound classmates. I certainly hope they will be studying this kind of thing up and down and sideways, and Yale being Yale I imagine they will. For the class underneath me, Duke switched to a non-required lecture format much more similar to how medical school functions. I was very jealous of them as I found sitting in lectures for 8 hours a day a waste of time, and as you mention it is bad eduction science to do that to students. I showed up and mostly studied on my own while lectures happened. To my knowledge the class underneath me did great on packrats and they have kept the system in place which is wonderful imo. With that in mind, my personal problem with this online program is not the education [though there are some valid issues being brought up] as much as the perception it creates. Our profession is in a critical phase right now as far as public relations and legislation. We need to be doing everything we can to push for the validity and respect our profession deserves, particularly in the face of expanding NP rights. Like it or not, medicine is a conservative field and the idea that we get our degrees online will damage our credibility with many in the public, administators, legislators, and doctors. NPs can get away with it because of their huge, effective lobby and nurses are often hiring adminstators. We are not graced with such a thing. We NEED the ability to show we are trained side by side with MDs in the same fashion they are. I have heard from many docs it is the reason they hire us over NPs. TL : DR. Online education for PAs hurts our profession's image even if it is well executed and produces good results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Febrifuge Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 my personal problem with this online program is not the education [though there are some valid issues being brought up] as much as the perception it creates. Our profession is in a critical phase right now as far as public relations and legislation. We need to be doing everything we can to push for the validity and respect our profession deserves, particularly in the face of expanding NP rights. This is a very good point. And you're right, it's a different issue, but until the average Joe on the street understands a lot more about online education, we can't ignore the perception side of things. No argument whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
didymus Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Like it or not, medicine is a conservative field and the idea that we get our degrees online will damage our credibility with many in the public, administators, legislators, and doctors. NPs can get away with it because of their huge, effective lobby and nurses are often hiring adminstators. We are not graced with such a thing. We NEED the ability to show we are trained side by side with MDs in the same fashion they are. I have heard from many docs it is the reason they hire us over NPs.TL : DR. Online education for PAs hurts our profession's image even if it is well executed and produces good results. Except no one is getting an online degree. The students will still have 14(?) clinical rotation sites, which is far above anything NP's do. It's not even an appropriate comparison. Plus, doing didactics via distance learning, with mandatory on-campus modules, is similar to how MD's are trained at many schools. This thread demonstrates the stigma that still exists with tech-driven learning, but it is the future. The fact that Yale is leading the way here should tell everyone that. In 10 years we will all be wondering why there was such anxiety over, and opposition to, this. To reiterate: this is not an online masters degree. It is a two-year clinical science masters program, of which several months of the book learning is done remotely, while still involving students in live dissection labs, immersive on-campus training sessions, and an entire year of diverse, in-person clinical rotations, just like every other PA program in the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialMedicine Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 To the individual who said we need to train alongside MD's .... we need to look great and not consider online programs because of reputation .... etc. NP's are not doing any of that and are blowing up in a positive way in the minds of the public and medical community. Do not worry about the physician or general public. Produce amazing results and the rest will fall into place. When you spend all your time trying to define yourself you never actually create a definition. Lets lead the way in how medical education should be delivered. Maybe that is the frame of mind to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taotaox1 Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 To the individual who said we need to train alongside MD's .... we need to look great and not consider online programs because of reputation .... etc. NP's are not doing any of that and are blowing up in a positive way in the minds of the public and medical community. Do not worry about the physician or general public. Produce amazing results and the rest will fall into place. When you spend all your time trying to define yourself you never actually create a definition. Lets lead the way in how medical education should be delivered. Maybe that is the frame of mind to have.I understand your point, but until we have the kind of name recognition and massive lobbying group the nurses have I feel we should be acting with more consideration. NPs, on a macro scale, are doing well because they have massive lobbying dollars and are in positions to hire their own kind. We do not. There are a lot of ways we should be leading the pack in chaning medicine, but I feel this is not one of them. Especially not with cavalier statements about training 300 a year. In the end this is not going to be the end of the world, but it is not helpful imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wenjing Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 As a recent Yale PA alumna, and a vocal opponent to Yale’s online PA program plan, I want to help settle the confusion as to why opposition is so rampant. Yes, Yale’s current program has some issues, as do most programs. Yale is itself a magnificent place to get a medical education, and the PA program has forged a reputation that I am proud of because of our access to amazing educators, clinicians, leaders, research, events, etc. However, this SPECIFIC online program - and I am not clumping it together with ALL the programs that have online components - is not well-conceived, well-organized, or comparable to the current program for the on-site degree. The biggest concern around Yale’s online program plan is how the school went about it. Specifically, we (students and alumni) are disappointed with three things about their approach: 1) Students and alumni were not made aware of or involved in any decisions or planning and PA Program faculty were not involved and are not supportive of the plan. 2) Interviewees were not informed about the possibility of an online track starting. 3) The school applied for accreditation as a mere “class size expansion,” which requires that the online and on-site tracks are equivalent in every way and students from both tracks will receive the exact same degrees. #1) The school assured us that students and alumni would be involved in a task force formed to help the school decide whether to pursue the online idea. Students and alumni were never told about the formation of the task force, let alone invited to participate. The next thing we heard was that the school had made a final decision and announced it to the national media. The school has not collected or used any insight from the students for the design of the online program. The Yale PA faculty were also not involved in the planning or decisions surrounding the online program. When the faculty members were asked what they thought about the plan at the town hall meeting, the room was silent. None have voiced support of the online program, as far as I’m aware. Additionally, the Yale PA Program is in the process undergoing massive changes in curriculum, education style, and testing methods over the last couple of years since our new director was hired. These changes need a period of trial and feedback to ensure effectiveness and work out any kinks before expanding the program to a gazillion people and an online modality. #2) Not only were interviewees not informed of the online program possibility, current PA students have told me that they were specifically asked not to mention the online program possibility to candidates during interviews. Members of the incoming class (that will start in August) were not told about the plan until after they had declined their other offers. Many members of the incoming class have told me they are concerned about the future reputation and accreditation status of the program they chose, the quality of education throughout this transition process, the school’s lack of interest in listening to students, and the trustworthiness of a school that kept information from them that may have impacted their decision. The initiation of the online track will inevitably take resources (faculty and staff’s time, etc.) from the on-site program. The program plans to hire new people, but not at a rate matching the expansion of the online program size. The program is already short-staffed to begin with. #3) Instead of applying for accreditation of the program as a new and innovative educational model and asking for a review of this system as the first-of-its-kind, they are applying for accreditation under the guise of a “class size expansion,” which seems utterly dishonest. If the ARC-PA approves the accreditation application for a mere “class size expansion,” I would be surprised and disappointed because it would set an accreditation precedent that online PA tracks can be instituted without subjecting them to the examination required for new programs. Many other programs are likely to follow suit as it could be lucrative. The current Yale PA Program director is a committee member of the ARC-PA, which has me worried about the committee’s objectivity in this decision. This is not a small matter, either. Yale plans to start 12 students at first, but start new class 3 times per year. This means the online cohort size will match the on-site class size within its first year of existence. Assuming the Yale online PA education ends up being of the highest quality possible, it is still not an equivalent education to the on-site education. Online students will have rotation experiences unique to their locations, and they will miss out on many opportunities and experiences available on campus at Yale including volunteering at places like the student-run free clinic, taking supplemental classes like Global Health and Medical Spanish, participating in medical school clubs and organizations, holding leadership positions, attending special events at Yale, attending grand rounds for any specialty, building professional relationships with others on campus (e.g. PA classmates, professors, MD students, other Yale students), accessing libraries and other campus resources, etc. Squeezing all of the workshops we have (procedural, history and physical exam, patient simulation, etc.) into a two week crash course is not only impossible if you add up the number of hours, it is different because it will not be experienced in context of learning about these various topics/skills throughout the didactic year. Other differences include: one semester of dissecting a whole cadaver and 24/7 access to the anatomy lab versus a two week crash course in dissection on pre-dissected cadavers and/or virtual dissection; asking questions during lectures versus saving questions to ask after taped lectures; and constant hands-on learning experiences for two and a half years versus two weeks of hands-on workshops on campus. Medical education involves tactile experiences, motor skill development, and patient interaction, all of which are difficult (or impossible) to obtain online. We want Yale to apply for accreditation for the online program separately from the on-site program, as they are clearly not equivalent. When asked at the town hall meeting why they didn’t apply for separate accreditation this way, the program director stated, "Because we would have to wait 5 years instead of 6 months." We think they are rushing into this without the proper scrutiny for such a substantial change. The school stated in their press release that the plan has been subjected to “thorough study,” but when asked about details at the town hall meeting, we got unclear and undetermined answers. For example, one student at the meeting said that she is from an area of Hawaii where there are no PA schools and very limited rotation opportunities for students. “If I were applying for the online program,” she asked, “where would I do rotations since it is unrealistic to do them within commuting distance of home?” The answer from the director was that a plan had not yet been figured out for students too far away from rotation sites. In conclusion, the school should first do more planning, have a trial and feedback period for the current major changes, scale up much more slowly, and accredit it accurately to make sure they get this right. What’s the rush??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
didymus Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Thorough and informative post! I am in favor of this distance program, and I am seriously considering applying specifically for it if it gets approval. That said, your post had a ton of excellent points, and I hope the PA program gives concerns such as yours the attention they deserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paula Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 The devil is always in the details and you have outlined valid reasons for why the Yale students and alumni are upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted March 31, 2015 Moderator Share Posted March 31, 2015 yup, I would be very concerned about where they would plug in 300 more students for rotations as well...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbrothers98 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 yup, I would be very concerned about where they would plug in 300 more students for rotations as well...... I dont think this is so far fetched. We tend to think very locally and regionally. This is a big country and a big world. On top of that, when you start getting incentive thrown into the mix, there will be some magically appearing rotation sites where there once was none. I recently heard that there was an attempt to organize a regional PA clinical rotation consortium amongst multiple northeast PA programs. It fell to it's death due to one of the programs, whom had 3 classes to support, pulling out and letting the other smaller programs sink. But what a great idea. Now expand that idea nationally. Many programs have a significant percentage of out of state or catchment area students. What if those OOS students could use such a network to return home and attend clinical rotations where they intend to live and get jobs? G Brothers PA-C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoRyou Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 But what a great idea. Now expand that idea nationally. Many programs have a significant percentage of out of state or catchment area students. What if those OOS students could use such a network to return home and attend clinical rotations where they intend to live and get jobs? G Brothers PA-C I think this would be a win-win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon, PA-C Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 There's a lot of misinformation about what MD programs do in this thread. Yes, MD schools don't require you to go to 100% of lectures, and they are usually streamed online for those who dont want to sit in a lecture hall. But I guarantee you that they still have to be on campus 3-5 times per week (maybe only 1-3 hours per day) for required stuff like small group PBL learning sessions, etc There's a reason why none of the MD programs market themselves as "online" programs, even though over 50% of the lecture material could be considered "online" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon, PA-C Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I dont think this is so far fetched. We tend to think very locally and regionally. This is a big country and a big world. On top of that, when you start getting incentive thrown into the mix, there will be some magically appearing rotation sites where there once was none. I recently heard that there was an attempt to organize a regional PA clinical rotation consortium amongst multiple northeast PA programs. It fell to it's death due to one of the programs, whom had 3 classes to support, pulling out and letting the other smaller programs sink. But what a great idea. Now expand that idea nationally. Many programs have a significant percentage of out of state or catchment area students. What if those OOS students could use such a network to return home and attend clinical rotations where they intend to live and get jobs? G Brothers PA-C If you start paying PAs and doctors to be clinical supervisors, then I agree that this won't be a problem. Here's the real problem -- PA programs refuse to pay clinical preceptors. That has to change if you want somewhere to dump an extra 300 PAs every year for clinicals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbrothers98 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 If you start paying PAs and doctors to be clinical supervisors, then I agree that this won't be a problem. Here's the real problem -- PA programs refuse to pay clinical preceptors. That has to change if you want somewhere to dump an extra 300 PAs every year for clinicals. Slowly changing. No valid reason not to give a great preceptor some sort of recognition, financial or otherwise. GB Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted April 8, 2015 Moderator Share Posted April 8, 2015 they could start by giving meaningful cme credit for teaching, not the few credits of cat 1 you can get by going though multiple hoops to get it approved. I know you can do hr for hr cat 2, but that can be come by easily in a variety of other ways easier than precepting.. how about 10 cat 1 credits/student/yr, max 30 credits/yr by this mechanism. you would have preceptors lining up to teach for free for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marktheshark89 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Just in case people were wondering, the ARC-PA rejected the online program request by Yale as a class expansion of the current program. We have been told that they will likely have to reapply for accreditation as a separate program. Thanks to everyone who has supported the letter writing campaign, for or against the online program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
didymus Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Just in case people were wondering, the ARC-PA rejected the online program request by Yale as a class expansion of the current program. We have been told that they will likely have to reapply for accreditation as a separate program. Thanks to everyone who has supported the letter writing campaign, for or against the online program. Do you happen to have a link to any reports on this? I'm interested in learning more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marktheshark89 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Unfortunately we do not. Our program did not tell students when the online program was rejected. Instead, we found the arc-pa report online here (link below), and then had to inquire to the program about what it meant. From word of mouth, they still plan to go forward with the online program, just likely as a separate program from the on campus one. This is all that we know, as our program has not made any formal statements regarding this decision by the arc-pa, nor have they updated pa.yale.edu which is the online program webpage. http://www.arc-pa.org/documents/AccreditationActions2015M.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
didymus Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Unfortunately we do not. Our program did not tell students when the online program was rejected. Instead, we found the arc-pa report online here (link below), and then had to inquire to the program about what it meant. From word of mouth, they still plan to go forward with the online program, just likely as a separate program from the on campus one. This is all that we know, as our program has not made any formal statements regarding this decision by the arc-pa, nor have they updated pa.yale.edu which is the online program webpage. http://www.arc-pa.org/documents/AccreditationActions2015M.pdf How will it work having the program unaccredited? What are the implications of that for students? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marktheshark89 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 The online program will not start until it is accredited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpackelly Posted April 9, 2015 Author Share Posted April 9, 2015 Interesting news report today. http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2015/04/09/online-pa-program-proposal-rejected/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
didymus Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Interesting news report today. http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2015/04/09/online-pa-program-proposal-rejected/ It makes sense now why they never responded to my email asking how interested students should apply next cycle for the online program. Thanks for the update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot1974 Posted June 6, 2015 Share Posted June 6, 2015 This is a wrong turn for the PA profession. Just take a look at all of the online NP programs that have popped up over the years. I work with a lot of NPs and the ones that attended an actual campus were much better trained than the ones that attended an online program. I work with nurses that are attending the online programs and they are struggling to understand the material. They even get to set up their own clinical sites in the hospital they work in basically shadowing an NP. I am sure Yale will do what it can to ensure the quality of education, however, at 80K+ in tuition and them looking at 300+ students, I am also sure a lot of other programs will start looking at the profit potential. We will start to see several programs throughout the country with several hundred PA students and not enough clinical sites. We will see PAs graduating without the face to face interactions of a classroom followed by overcrowded and lower quality clinical rotations. Then we get a swarm of new grads flooding the clinics and hospitals without the foundations in clinical medicine to actually do their jobs. Say goodbye to the 40+ years of trying to advance this profession all in the name of profit for the PA programs. Maybe DeVry and the University of Phoenix can get involved as well? I can't wait for the ads on late night TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duality Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 This is a wrong turn for the PA profession. Just take a look at all of the online NP programs that have popped up over the years. I work with a lot of NPs and the ones that attended an actual campus were much better trained than the ones that attended an online program. I work with nurses that are attending the online programs and they are struggling to understand the material. They even get to set up their own clinical sites in the hospital they work in basically shadowing an NP. I am sure Yale will do what it can to ensure the quality of education, however, at 80K+ in tuition and them looking at 300+ students, I am also sure a lot of other programs will start looking at the profit potential. We will start to see several programs throughout the country with several hundred PA students and not enough clinical sites. We will see PAs graduating without the face to face interactions of a classroom followed by overcrowded and lower quality clinical rotations. Then we get a swarm of new grads flooding the clinics and hospitals without the foundations in clinical medicine to actually do their jobs. Say goodbye to the 40+ years of trying to advance this profession all in the name of profit for the PA programs. Maybe DeVry and the University of Phoenix can get involved as well? I can't wait for the ads on late night TV. I laughed when I read the last line but so true. In my area we have many NPs that were trained online and can prescribe controlled substances in my state whereas a PA cannot. For this reason some people regard NPs here as more qualified or "better" than PAs because of this. Who would want to be treated by a provider that got online training, not me, we all know how online classes are. Now that PA training may be going this route saddens me. Even more so, the University I am applying to will be removing their HCE requirements for one year but still require patient contact...? I wouldn't want to work in a field that would soon be flooded with contemporaries that were trained online or with minimal HCE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.