PACdan Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 online education in my opinion is often inferior to an in person experience ..... wait and see what this program looks like before final verdicts are issued ..... i would imagine before a University, which clearly does not need another 40 student PA tuition to make bank, approves this type of program there is some quality assurance. What is the purpose of the program ? Who wants this type of education ? Does it have the power to go international and influence health in places such as Africa and the UK where the PA profession is slowly growing ? I am all about commenting on this as it is very controversial but before we sell out the program (which has a strong reputation) lets see what this looks like in 2-3 years. Already several PA and NP programs have an online format for didactic experience. Medical schools record lectures and do not mandate attendance. I remember an NPR focused on Wayne or Wright University which highlighted a student who said she never actually attended class just listened at home. This does not seem to be some University putting lectures online. This is a company that is publicly traded and seems to have the funding to design a quality program. I think the profession needs to recognize doctoral education, online education, and program expansion are all going to happen. We need to control and tread carefully. BTW sorry to change topic whatever happened to that doctoral PA school ? I think they gave up on the degree based on web site. Lynchburg College is still developing their doctoral option. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Yale's "lack of need" for more money as indication that money is not a motivating factor in its decisions. Google doesn't need another billion dollars, but they're not going to pass it up either. As for changing global heath, etc. I can't read the same altruism in the development of an online program that adds another 320 seats at $83,000 a pop. That's not very affordable to most here in the US. I think their program director also sells a PANCE prep book. I would surmise, for a profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marktheshark89 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 If you plan to write to the arc-pa, do so quickly. They are currently in session reviewing this proposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACdan Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 If you plan to write to the arc-pa, do so quickly. They are currently in session reviewing this proposal. For interested parties: John McCarty, Executive Director ARC-PA 12000 Findley Road, Suite 150 Johns Creek, GA, 30097 Phone: 770-476-1224 Fax: 770-476-1738 johnmccarty@arc-pa.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalPA Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Are people against PA distance education all together or is it the large # of DE students. ARC-PA could always allow DE but with a class size restriction. Say maybe equal to 20-25% of the face to face class size. Might need to leave room for a compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted March 12, 2015 Moderator Share Posted March 12, 2015 Are people against PA distance education all together or is it the large # of DE students. ARC-PA could always allow DE but with a class size restriction. Say maybe equal to 20-25% of the face to face class size. Might need to leave room for a compromise. I'm against it altogether...In person didactic coursework has been one of the things that set us apart from the diploma mill NP programs which can be done in 2 years while working full time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAAdmission Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 For interested parties: John McCarty, Executive Director ARC-PA 12000 Findley Road, Suite 150 Johns Creek, GA, 30097 Phone: 770-476-1224 Fax: 770-476-1738 johnmccarty@arc-pa.org Good luck with that. ARC-PA has cultivated a unique blend of psychopathy and ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACdan Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I'm against it altogether...In person didactic coursework has been one of the things that set us apart from the diploma mill NP programs which can be done in 2 years while working full time... I agree. During a regular didactic week we have lots of hands-on learning that just can't be replicated on a screen: Cadaver lab dissection Clinical skills lab PBL groups Sim lab Patient encounters (every couple of weeks) ...heck, even lunch counts! Is Yale really going to cram all of that effectively into one week at the beginning and end of their didactic course, and make it all stick? That doesn't even take into account the benefit of knowledge sharing and learning that goes on student-to-student in a physical classroom environment. All of the intellectual discussion that goes on in our classroom with the professors, with each other; the joking, the wit, the somberness, the humanity... that would be totally lost in the passivity of a 300-person video lecture Skype session. Are students really going to effectively connect with their 300 PA Skype-mates? Part of all of this, a large part of medicine, is people skills. Are they going to get the daily, hands-on experiences and the reinforcement that brings? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted March 12, 2015 Moderator Share Posted March 12, 2015 Agree. many of my best friends are folks I met in pa school over 20 years ago. folks I had all night study sessions with, went on road trips with, helped move to new cities for their first jobs, etc. You lose something of the social aspect doing an online program. for a purely didactic endeavor resulting in a degree, but not a clinical certification, that is probably ok. I am really enjoying my distance-learning doctoral program with required summer institutes on campus, but I didn't make any friendships with other students in the program that will last beyond graduation. I will likely remain in contact with several of the faculty, however. working together for a year (or 2 in my case as I did a part time PA program) with the same 12 folks in my core group on the didactic material really created a lasting sense of community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalPA Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I was just thinking in case the train had left the station perhaps it wasn't too late to put some restrictions on class size. That might take some of the financial incentive out of the equation. Just an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted March 12, 2015 Moderator Share Posted March 12, 2015 For interested parties: John McCarty, Executive Director ARC-PA 12000 Findley Road, Suite 150 Johns Creek, GA, 30097 Phone: 770-476-1224 Fax: 770-476-1738 johnmccarty@arc-pa.org my response to Mr McCarty- Please consider the long-term ramifications of credentialing a program which will train 300 students/yr by distance education for the didactic year. This will not only impact rotation site availability, but also tarnish the reputation of all PA programs. On-site coursework is one of the things which sets PA programs apart from other similar professions. If this program is allowed to adopt this methodology, there will be nothing stopping every PA program( all 200+ of them) from trying to graduate 300+ students/year in the same fashion. Thank you- XXXXXXX PA-C, MPA Emergency Med. PA Doctoral Candidate, Health Science & Global Health Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will352ns Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I find this a bit odd considering the only reason I didn't apply to Yale was that they didn't accept online courses for any of their pre-recs (I had 2). Strange days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickitabanana Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Thanks everyone for your comments. I'm currently working with another Yale graduate to address the faculty at a town hall type meeting tonight regarding this issue. I was planning to use some of the 100+ negative comments received when AAPA posted to the article to their facebook page, but it oddly disappeared after all of the negative backlash. I'm not sure how it was when you attended, SocialMedicine, but YSM has never been truly supportive of the PA program in my experience so I wouldn't be surprised if they see it as a quick way to earn money for the school without consideration to how it'll negatively impact the PA profession. When I was a student we were never fully integrated into the medical school as I would've hoped to have been. Despite our classroom being down the hall and one floor above the second and first year medical students, respectively, a large number of them didn't know we even existed until we started clinical rotations. They thought we were a separate school (the "PA School"), not an additional degree offered by the medical school. They were unaware we had a representative on the medical student council and the medical school committee untill we inquired about when meetings were held. YSM and YSN put together a "Power Day" event at the beginning of clinical rotations for third year medical students where NP students discussed their role on the healthcare team, their education, etc. When I asked at our curriculum committee why PA students weren't invited (seems like something we should be at, right? Since we work alongside MDs and they are our collaborating physicians) I was told they had tried multiple times to get the PA students involved in this and were shut down. One faculty member told me that if I wanted to start a petition and get it signed by PA students and medical students that I knew that it might be successful, but that their efforts had failed more than once. At May graduation (we graduated in December, but we're allowed to walk in the university ceremony) we were seated with the entire public health school between us and the MD students graduating (despite the fact that we are supposedly also part of the medical school). I agree that while online learning is possible there is a lot to be learned outside of the classroom. One of the "pros" in my Pros/Cons list when I was deciding between Yale and two other programs was the extracurricular activities that were offered. We volunteered at underserved primary care health clinics, we planned PA week celebrations every year to advocate for our profession, we held multiple fundraising events for charity, our student society elected AAPA representatives to send to our national conference, etc. This cannot be achieved with people you seen a few weeks out of the year. I was told by two students (one class of 2015 and one class of 2014) that they were informed of the online program possibility in June of 2014 and tried to make their voices heard to the appropriate Deans and were ignored. The next they heard about what was going on was when an email was sent to Yale PA students and alumni one day before the national announcement came out. I am grateful for my education at Yale and the experiences provided/friendships formed, however I do not feel I can continue to support the program or the medical school if they ignore their students and alumni on this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbrothers98 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Well it is the internet and everyone is allowed their own opinion. They just arent allowed their own facts. Referring to the article on Yahoo, dont see anyone from the Yale PA program themselves providing any information. The statement that Yale could enroll over 300 students in 5 years is only attributed to 'university officials'. There is the possibility that they may also expand their onsite program from 40 to more, eating up more of that 300 with onsite students. There is also a difference between could and will. Will be interesting to see what the program says to the alums. I am also surprised that there is such a vehement response to this announcement. I have and am taking online courses, my experience is that there are certain aspects that are challenging and not. But I felt the same way about PA school, some interesting, some a slog, some critical, some completely unnecessary. There are major portions of the didactic year that can be delivered online and this has been proven at other healthcare training programs. The fact that the PA profession is the last to fall (but it is not as evident by Paula's example) indicates that didactic delivery in our profession needs work. There seems that there is a requirement for butt in seat on site with much oversight. That is just not needed. As for the social aspect, there are some whom have lasting relationships from their program. There are also those whom could care less if they see their classmates ever again. This online delivery will still be a minority in the years to come. Reading the article, the company doing this with Yale has invested 7 figures up front. While many institutions may look to expanding the concept, that is a steep up front cost to swallow and will deter most. There is also only the consideration that this program will affect the US. Plenty of english speaking countries that Yale could roll this out to, bringing the concept to areas that would not be able. This is a bold move and I hope it succeeds. G Brothers PA-C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialMedicine Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 vehement is not an overstatement .... from what I heard the AAPA had to remove the press release secondary to negative postings on facebook. They do this occasionally and we cannot blame them for that. They have an obligation to support the profession and if they are causing a public controversy of this sort it is best to pull back. I wonder if AAPA or PAFT have any commentary on this ? Pro or con ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db_pavnp Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Online already works, online PA already works. Inevitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACdan Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Whether the 'university official' is directly affiliated with the Yale PA program or not is irrelevant. Someone speaking in an official capacity for Yale had the audacity to suggest it. The program is not free from the leanings of other non-PA university officials, who can and do make decisions about its operation. As for the example of Paula's online program, I would be interested to know what her initial class size was and what it is today. I doubt it approaches anywhere near the suggestion made by Yale. I realize that it may be bluster, but it is not an amusing suggestion. Someone, someplace out there (probably many persons & places) would love to collect the maximum tuition possible from every single person who turns in an applicable for PA school and is able to pay. They don't care how it shapes the profession, what quality of provider it produces, or what the future impact will be. They only care that they are fulfilling minimums requirements to maximize profits. Because businesses never want to turn away willing & able customers. And like it or not, education is a big business is the US. Tuition costs are the only thing growing faster than medical costs, by nearly double. But now the much more interesting fact is the overwhelmingly negative response to the AAPA Yale news release by other PAs. The constituents of an organization should be the ones deciding its course. Yale should put this decision to a vote, if only among their current PA classes and PA alumni. If Yale SOM was pulling this stunt, do you not think that a flurry of outraged alumni physicians, professional organizations, and their money would be exerting pressure upon the university? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickitabanana Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Regardless of whether or not this is a good idea or can work all of the Yale alumni I've spoken to want this online degree to be distinguished as something entirely different as the one we have hanging on our wall. When I was a student class was required and we were told it was our professional responsibility to show up. We were not given access to podcasts of the lectures like the Yale medical students. My two roommates and I walked to school TWICE, two miles, in the snow when the rest of the university and the shuttle system was shut down becuase our classes were cancelled. One of those days we had an exam to get to or else we'd get a "fail" with no opportunity for a make up despite the weather. We were held to the same standards as Yale medical students during our sugery, internal medicine, psychiatry and pediatrics rotations. Thus, EVEN if you can learn the lectures on your own from home by not 1. participating in the same cadaver lab, clinical skills lab, sensitive skills lab, journal club discussions etc. that were required of us and 2. completing similar YSM affiliated clinical rotatations (because instead you've set up the bulk of your rotations in your home state which may or may not be of the same quality) it is not right to award the same degree. Yale did not inform their alumni of this until one day before the national press release. A survey of current students was done in the summer of 2014 with the following results: Out of the 54 respondents, 5% supported the addition of a distance learning program to the Yale PA Program, 11% were unsure, and 83% did not. To the question: “Do you feel that you have been appropriately informed about the addition of a distance learning program?” 84% of respondents answered “no.” To the question: “Do you believe that student concerns regarding the addition of a distance learning program have been appropriately considered?” 87% of respondents answered “no.” They were told in June 2014 a task force would be assembled to include current students and alumni. None of the current students were ever involved and, speaking as an alumna, none of the alumni were ever included or informed either. I attended the alumni reception at AAPA in May of 2014 and no one mentioned the online program to us, not even the program director. Current students did not receive any update since June 2014 of the distance program until earlier this week. It seems they do not care about the opinion of their own students or alumni. The WSJ article stated that 2U will receive half of the tuition of each student once this begins. We've now opened the door for corporate money to be influencing medical education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted March 12, 2015 Moderator Share Posted March 12, 2015 Online already works, online PA already works. Inevitable. so where is my accredited online medschool option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsmitty33 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Lynchburg College is still developing their doctoral option. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Yale's "lack of need" for more money as indication that money is not a motivating factor in its decisions. Google doesn't need another billion dollars, but they're not going to pass it up either. As for changing global heath, etc. I can't read the same altruism in the development of an online program that adds another 320 seats at $83,000 a pop. That's not very affordable to most here in the US. I think their program director also sells a PANCE prep book. I would surmise, for a profit. Yeah their program director has an online Kaplan PANCE review video series and I would imagine he's profiting quite well from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db_pavnp Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 so where is my accredited online medschool option? 202x? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunafish Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I think the biggest problem is not the online teaching and self learning but online check for the knowledge. You can say "close book exam" all you want, but if there is no one to proctor them... the knowledge base will suffer. Medicine is not history class where you can make student write essays. Why study brachial plexus if you can have a picture in front of you during exam at home. I am not even talking about quality of rotations for 350 students. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted March 12, 2015 Moderator Share Posted March 12, 2015 not a fan of the idea (online pa school), but it is possible to have proctored exams for an online course. I took an online stats course 12 years ago and I was required to go to a local university for tests, which had a center for proctored exams accessible by paying a fee. I believe this is fairly common. such a situation could require the students to take their tests at a specific time ( 8 am pst, 11 am est, etc) on a specific date so that no one could share answers with other students taking it later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marktheshark89 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Yale wouldn't risk its reputation if it was not something that it believed it could do. Though the number of 360 has been thrown around as a class size, it is starting with 12 and we have been assured that of there are not enough Yale standard quality applicants or sites the program will not expand to that number Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsmitty33 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 The problem is other programs are going to use this to examd class size and $. If the prestigious Yale can do it why not everyone else? Rotation sites are already flooded. DE programs are good for those who truly want to practice rural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalPA Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 ^^ the reason to limit class size now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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