Jump to content

NP Students


Recommended Posts

Hey all,

 

I'm wondering if anyone else has encountered this issue before and if they're as irritated by it as I am. I coordinate students rotating through my ED (smallish community hospital, no residents) Historically we've only taken PA students, but one of the ED nurses had a sister going through an NP program and asked if she could get some clinical hours in the ED.

 

So I arranged the NP student's schedule, gave her regular feedback, and spent a lot of clinical time with her in the ED teaching her how she should come up with a differential (which was shockingly painful) and so on.

 

It is now the end of her semester and the faculty at her school have been emailing the ED director for her evaluation. He hasn't spent one minute with her! Her school won't allow PAs to evaluate or train NP students! This is crazy to me. When I was in school we trained with NPs, PAs, MDs.. everyone has something valuable to offer. I find it extremely juvenile for them to shut PAs out as if they're too good to learn from us. And now I have to sit back as if I didn't teach her plenty of valuable skills and have the MD who barely knows her sign all these documents (fraudulently, really) because my signature isn't good enough. It's maddening.

 

And don't even get me started on how terrifyingly unprepared she is to begin practicing after this spring.

 

So I needed to vent.

That's all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 72
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I would be sorely tempted to tell the ED director to send a nice letter that the evaluation was done by YOU, the precepting PA in whom he has absolute faith. You complete the eval, you sign and submit. Ok fine, the ED director can cosign (whatever). I would be just a smidge concerned that the program may refuse to grant the NP student a grade though, and that's really not her fault.

Have a friendly collegial chat with the director of clinical nursing education for the NP program.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I precepted an NP student as her program had no problem with PAs and I was the one who did her evaluation.  It depends on the program. I had to sign an agreement, submit my curriculum vitae to the program first.  The NP student said she learned more from me than the NP and MD she spent time with at the clinic.  

 

I only had her for a couple of days as it was a hit or miss thing tho for when she could be at the clinic.

 

NP programs who do not allow PA preceptors are behind the times and teaching their students PAs are untrained.  I still had to have the convo with the NP student as she tried to tell me PAs training was less than NPs.  Jeesh.  She came for clinicals only a few times a week for a few hours at a time for 4 weeks.  Probably a total of 40 -60 hours of training.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would put this back on the student.

She should have known that her program would act like this.

I would also expect the director to tell the program the truth of the matter.

If this affects the student then she should have anticipated this to begin with.

You should have been clearly identified as the students preceptor and all correspondence sent to you.

There could be the likelihood that the program is at fault.

Communications concerning evaluations may come not from faculty but from support staff.

I ran into this when we started precepting PA students. Correspondence went to the ED director whom just turned it over to me.

Just turned out to be administrative error.

They may have just inquired with support staff at your place whom is the department head not realizing that there are a lot of issues a department head does not deal with.

GB PA-C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my 4 month FP rotation, I worked with 3 different docs. My main preceptor had the other docs fill out an evaluation form, then he correlated them all to one, including his own, and signed off-since he was my preceptor on paper. This was in addition to staff evaluations and patient evals.

 

Did the school initially email and deem you as the preceptor?

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey all,

 

I'm wondering if anyone else has encountered this issue before and if they're as irritated by it as I am. I coordinate students rotating through my ED (smallish community hospital, no residents) Historically we've only taken PA students, but one of the ED nurses had a sister going through an NP program and asked if she could get some clinical hours in the ED.

 

So I arranged the NP student's schedule, gave her regular feedback, and spent a lot of clinical time with her in the ED teaching her how she should come up with a differential (which was shockingly painful) and so on.

 

It is now the end of her semester and the faculty at her school have been emailing the ED director for her evaluation. He hasn't spent one minute with her! Her school won't allow PAs to evaluate or train NP students! This is crazy to me. When I was in school we trained with NPs, PAs, MDs.. everyone has something valuable to offer. I find it extremely juvenile for them to shut PAs out as if they're too good to learn from us. And now I have to sit back as if I didn't teach her plenty of valuable skills and have the MD who barely knows her sign all these documents (fraudulently, really) because my signature isn't good enough. It's maddening.

 

And don't even get me started on how terrifyingly unprepared she is to begin practicing after this spring.

 

So I needed to vent.

That's all.

 

It could simply be a clerical error of her school sending the eval paperwork to the ED director.  Or, perhaps if her school really doesn't allow PA preceptors, she is trying to pull a fast one by having her eval paperwork sent to the director.  Either way, it is on her.  If her school does not allow PA preceptors, then her school needs to know that she precepted with a PA.  Hiding that fact is academic dishonesty.  I know you are frustrated about her school not allowing PA preceptors, and as an NP/NP student, I think such a policy is super dumb.  However, between her potential academic dishonesty, and her being "terrifyingly unprepared," the ethical thing to do is to contact her school and let them know what is going on.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Probably a total of 40 -60 hours of training.  

 

That's pretty typical if you were precepting a primary care student (FNP, ANP, PNP), e.g. if you were precepting an FNP student, ED is not considered "family practice," so allowed hours by the school would be minimal. Some schools allow no ED time at all, or allow it, but it won't count towards minimum clinical hour requirements.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

I'm an NP who spent over 300 precepted hours in the ED in addition to the other required rotations. Guess it depends on the school.  I have also precepted both NPs and PAs with no problems.  Oh, and I managed to failed noone.

sounds like you attended a quality NP program. some np programs offer 500 hrs total for their entire clinical "year".

this is how one program we have taken students from describes their clinical "year":

Preceptored Clinical Experiences

A clinical component is scheduled during each semester to provide students with an opportunity to apply their learning in the clinical work setting. Students are supervised by a local preceptor who is responsible for assuring that the student is provided with adequate and appropriate learning experiences as close to home as possible. This partnership between the academic and clinical settings not only results in a well prepared family nurse practitioner, but positions the student for employment opportunities after graduation. Students should plan to spend approximately 8 to 16 hours per week in a clinical setting.

 

(This allows someone to complete the entire program with 400-800 hrs of clinical time total if they do rotations 50 weeks/yr....)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm an NP who spent over 300 precepted hours in the ED in addition to the other required rotations. Guess it depends on the school.  I have also precepted both NPs and PAs with no problems.  Oh, and I managed to failed noone.

 

As a PA from a good program, we have had students who failed.  If you earn a failing grade you should get a failing grade.  Is your "managing to fail no one" a good thing?  As preceptors - and I know you know this so I'm not trying to be preachy - we are responsible to ensure that the "kids" we let loose on the certification exam (and by extension real people) are capable of practicing medicine competently.  We can't forget that, as much as we like these people who are our students. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

we are responsible to ensure that the "kids" we let loose on the certification exam (and by extension real people) are capable of practicing medicine competently.  We can't forget that, as much as we like these people who are our students. 

agree. when I was in medic school over 20 years ago the director of the program day one told us this: "My family lives around here. If I don't think you are capable of taking care of my wife or kids if I call 911 you will not pass this course."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I precept NP and PA students. I have a couple who have asked and then been told only an MD or NP can precept. I say sorry and they move on. I do insist that the NPs have the same hours as PA students. If you work with me, you work my schedule. You see patients for continuity and you progress in your assessments just like PA students. I had one NP that only wanted to work one day a week. I told her to find another site. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to the Physician Assistant Forum! This website uses cookies to ensure you get the best experience on our website. Learn More